Praise Song Cruncher by Table Talk Radio

[miamited]

Hi blue,

Yea, his testimony seems genuine and sincere and I imagine that a lot of us can relate when we consider the kind of life we lived before knowing the truth. The part I particularly like is when Alice the bar owner comes knocking on his door a couple weeks after he's quit going to the bar every night. He speaks to her and says, "The man you're looking for doesn't live here anymore. I've got his dogs and I ride his bike, but he's not here." Then if you look into his life after being born again, his is such a wonderful example of going out into the pathways and byways of the world to share the love of Jesus.

And, of course, the most powerful aspect of his testimony is that anyone listening can easily understand that if God would have such great mercy on a man such as that, He will surely show me mercy. God is so good! I'm confident that Duane Blue has no idea the impact that his testimony for God has made in the world, and that his Father and our Lord, rejoices over people such as him.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Bluelion]

That is not possible. The tree doesn't humbly bow in hurricane force winds. The tree is resisting and forced to bend. The tree will stand right back up after the hurricane force winds leave, unless the hurricane kills it.

wow, starting think you want to see what you want in the song and not what is there. The tree is at the mercy of hurricane, it goes where the wind blows and is often up rooted and move to another place. A tree in a hurricane is humbling, guess you have never seen nor been in a hurricane.

 

[mikedsjr]

Blue, clearly I'll have to move beyond this song. Nothing can change my mind unless there is a Scriptural doctrine clearly laid out to support this. There hasn't been any.

 

[miamited]

Hi mike,

Oddly enough, I find your reply a bit humorous. I've also been asking for you to support what you're teaching by Scripture and you have yet not responded. Why is it, then, that you expect us to follow you without Scriptural support, but you are wholly unwilling to follow what any of us say in the same way?

Just kinda humorous to me.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[mikedsjr]

I gave some verses already.

 

[miamited]

Hi mike,

Well, I did see that in post #46 you gave a couple of Scriptural references but...

The question you asked there is whether Jesus is the object of our faith and then gave references that the Scriptures show that Jesus should be the object of our faith. I wholeheartedly agree with that foundation, but I don't see how that can be translated to: "Well, every song we sing must 'say' the name of Jesus. Jesus can be the subject, object, person who is sung to in any good Christian song, but not specifically named. As I understand Jesus being the object of our faith, it's about 'who' we're singing to and not the actual words we are singing. Although, before you jump on that comment, yes, the words must be about the things of himself, His Father, the Holy Spirit or the word. I'm certainly not advocating that we sing some Megadeath song about drugs, sorrow, murder or harlotry and just because we're singing it in a fellowship, then it is a valid praise song.

Anyway, I feel confident that we've beat this old dead horse about as far as she'll go. You and I will just have to agree to disagree as brothers in the Lord and wait for the Lord's judgment, however that might fall.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted.

 

[mikedsjr]

Ted, I know you want to end this. I must ask. You do at least admit there are rules to worship songs. The only criteria from the list you argued against is #1, maybe because we're stuck on it. I don't need to argue over the others. But you agree to some extent Rules must be put in place to what qualifies as a valid church worship song. Would this be true in your stance?

 

[Bluelion]

Blue, clearly I'll have to move beyond this song. Nothing can change my mind unless there is a Scriptural doctrine clearly laid out to support this. There hasn't been any.

There is humble your self before God.

I am sorry you feel that way. Some People have to be told everything I guess they want a clear line which says don't eat this and do not eat that, and go to bed at this time. That is fine and all but doesn't seem like much freedom in that. This discussion is a lot like the food law. The law said don't eat it seemed, and Jesus said eat. Maybe you could look at it like that.

 

[Bluelion]

Ted, I know you want to end this. I must ask. You do at least admit there are rules to worship songs. The only criteria from the list you argued against is #1, maybe because we're stuck on it. I don't need to argue over the others. But you agree to some extent Rules must be put in place to what qualifies as a valid church worship song. Would this be true in your stance?

I made this point early which was passed over, Jesus preached against man made rules on how to worship God. So why should we go against Jesus and put man made rules to worship God yet again? If God has not laid down these rules they are not valid. That is your case with these songs no? that there is no clear line to scripture. So how can you lay down rules with out God's backing and scripture support?

 

[miamited]

Hi mike,

Yes, I do agree that worship songs do need to be worshipful and praising of the things of God. That's about the only rule I hold to. As far as #1 on the list being the only one I'm having problems with, no. What I wrote about was that the Scriptural evidence that you presented in post #46 only seemed to address rule #1. I was actually going to ask you what your Scriptural evidence was to bolster the other rules, but honestly decided that it wasn't worth the effort after seeing how you seemed to distort the Scriptural references that you gave to posit your position for rule #1. Remembering that the instructions of the Scriptures to me is that I not get into interminable arguments regarding disputable matters. And finally, no, I don't think that rules need to be put in place regarding fellowship worship songs. I believe that most fellowships have a pretty good understanding of what they want to use in their worship and I'm ok with whatever they choose. If it is completely off target, then I'm just not going to be worshiping with that particular fellowship.

I don't agree with many, many of the doctrines and dogmas of the catholic organization, but I'm not going to lay down some set of rules of my own design for them to follow. You just won't ever find me as a part of their fellowship of worship. Now, you may be involved in your own fellowship with discontent over the choice of worship songs. That's ok. So long as that discontent is valid. My understanding is that your discontent isn't particularly valid. I don't hold to believing that a worship song necessarily has to name Jesus. I don't hold to believing that a worship song necessarily can't have any repetition, and of course, what constitutes too much repetition to you may not be so for me. I do like the message of the song to be clear and understandable, but I'm not going to call it some disrespectful 'sin' of music if a particular song is not. If all the music seems to be, then again, I'd probably opt for another fellowship as the place where I'm comfortable. I have no problem with mysticism so long as that is understood as referring to feelings and emotions. I certainly would never hold that worship music must be about the law or the gospel.

But if you feel that the ministry that God has called you to is to police the music, then have at it. As I said much earlier, music is probably one of most contested aspects of the worship service in many fellowships.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Bluelion]

Hi blue,

Yea, his testimony seems genuine and sincere and I imagine that a lot of us can relate when we consider the kind of life we lived before knowing the truth. The part I particularly like is when Alice the bar owner comes knocking on his door a couple weeks after he's quit going to the bar every night. He speaks to her and says, "The man you're looking for doesn't live here anymore. I've got his dogs and I ride his bike, but he's not here." Then if you look into his life after being born again, his is such a wonderful example of going out into the pathways and byways of the world to share the love of Jesus.

And, of course, the most powerful aspect of his testimony is that anyone listening can easily understand that if God would have such great mercy on a man such as that, He will surely show me mercy. God is so good! I'm confident that Duane Blue has no idea the impact that his testimony for God has made in the world, and that his Father and our Lord, rejoices over people such as him.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

what I didn't like is how no one from the church came to check on him but the lady from the bar sure did. It is a lesson I learned, if I am every pastor of church I will set up a group of people who mission is to check on those who are not at church. My ex step mother is a minister, she post thing like in the old days people fed them self then came to church the church is not a buffet. I wanted to tell her that the early church they had a feast every sunday before church, that they fed and clothed each other, that church of Jesus is family.

To be honest i want to tare down this church that has come to the world and is very much apart of it, and I want to get back to the early church, the church of Jesus, where people cared for each other, were family and new God. Where they wanted to learn about God, they were hungry and thirsty for God. It was made up of people like the Blue's, people like you and me. Where love came first. I got a lot of work on my self to do, but i hope we all get there one day.

 

[mikedsjr]

Hi mike,

Yes, I do agree that worship songs do need to be worshipful and praising of the things of God. That's about the only rule I hold to. As far as #1 on the list being the only one I'm having problems with, no. What I wrote about was that the Scriptural evidence that you presented in post #46 only seemed to address rule #1. I was actually going to ask you what your Scriptural evidence was to bolster the other rules, but honestly decided that it wasn't worth the effort after seeing how you seemed to distort the Scriptural references that you gave to posit your position for rule #1. Remembering that the instructions of the Scriptures to me is that I not get into interminable arguments regarding disputable matters. And finally, no, I don't think that rules need to be put in place regarding fellowship worship songs. I believe that most fellowships have a pretty good understanding of what they want to use in their worship and I'm ok with whatever they choose. If it is completely off target, then I'm just not going to be worshiping with that particular fellowship.

I don't agree with many, many of the doctrines and dogmas of the catholic organization, but I'm not going to lay down some set of rules of my own design for them to follow. You just won't ever find me as a part of their fellowship of worship. Now, you may be involved in your own fellowship with discontent over the choice of worship songs. That's ok. So long as that discontent is valid. My understanding is that your discontent isn't particularly valid. I don't hold to believing that a worship song necessarily has to name Jesus. I don't hold to believing that a worship song necessarily can't have any repetition, and of course, what constitutes too much repetition to you may not be so for me. I do like the message of the song to be clear and understandable, but I'm not going to call it some disrespectful 'sin' of music if a particular song is not. If all the music seems to be, then again, I'd probably opt for another fellowship as the place where I'm comfortable. I have no problem with mysticism so long as that is understood as referring to feelings and emotions. I certainly would never hold that worship music must be about the law or the gospel.

But if you feel that the ministry that God has called you to is to police the music, then have at it. As I said much earlier, music is probably one of most contested aspects of the worship service in many fellowships.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

So they don't have to be Trinitarian?

 

[mikedsjr]

I made this point early which was passed over, Jesus preached against man made rules on how to worship God. So why should we go against Jesus and put man made rules to worship God yet again? If God has not laid down these rules they are not valid. That is your case with these songs no? that there is no clear line to scripture. So how can you lay down rules with out God's backing and scripture support?

You seem to think I'm codifying these. No, I'm not. They are quite a good guide. My church probably sings 50-75% about Jesus. I can deal with that. There are songs I don't mind after a few songs about Christ that I'm fine to sing which speak of praising God(though praising God is praising Jesus also). Some songs I'm somewhat unclear of the point, but people love mysticism. Whatever makes them feel like their experiencing God's presence. But I dont judge them, though I don't like the songs.

As I have said, my theology is fairly similar to LCMS Lutheran, so if you ever understand them you might understand me. But I've grown up in baptist churches so I'm comfortable to a there and I have good friends at church. If I was to align myself with a group in baptist circles it would be reformed, though I'm moving a bit away, but not towards the free will position of Arminians, but the free will position of Lutherans(oh that might stir up controversy). Honestly, I have far less rules than you probably have. I assure you you have rules, but somehow you don't claim them as rules. It's all a matter of perspective. I try to be honest about myself. I value doctrine because in doctrine is Truth. You want to see me raising hands, then watch while the song sings of Christ death burial and resurrection. But expect my hands in pockets if How He Loves is played (I don't think our church has played that). Jesus is the object of our faith. Without his resurrection we are but fools to be pitied.

 

[Bluelion]

You seem to think I'm codifying these. No, I'm not. They are quite a good guide. My church probably sings 50-75% about Jesus. I can deal with that. There are songs I don't mind after a few songs about Christ that I'm fine to sing which speak of praising God(though praising God is praising Jesus also). Some songs I'm somewhat unclear of the point, but people love mysticism. Whatever makes them feel like their experiencing God's presence. But I dont judge them, though I don't like the songs.

As I have said, my theology is fairly similar to LCMS Lutheran, so if you ever understand them you might understand me. But I've grown up in baptist churches so I'm comfortable to a there and I have good friends at church. If I was to align myself with a group in baptist circles it would be reformed, though I'm moving a bit away, but not towards the free will position of Arminians, but the free will position of Lutherans(oh that might stir up controversy). Honestly, I have far less rules than you probably have. I assure you you have rules, but somehow you don't claim them as rules. It's all a matter of perspective. I try to be honest about myself. I value doctrine because in doctrine is Truth. You want to see me raising hands, then watch while the song sings of Christ death burial and resurrection. But expect my hands in pockets if How He Loves is played (I don't think our church has played that). Jesus is the object of our faith. Without his resurrection we are but fools to be pitied.

Sorry your spinning a web but you have not made the structure lines. If you can show me God laid down this Law fine, but i will not accept laws of men about how to worship God. Man made rules I don't have. Rule for my self yes I have which are taken from God. Such as remain in God's word daily, I try to pray for someone daily, I try to praise God daily. This is all from God's wisdom. But if you start talking about what rules are put on me you mind stumble, because i have very few. I am all about spirit, I worship in Spirit. so I do not say sunday is my Holy day, nor do I say Friday at sun down is. But I see the point Jesus made the Sabbath was made for man, so I take one day a week rest, I don't think what day, just as long as I take a day out of 7. For me that is worshiping the Sabbath in Spirit. You probably don't understand that, but I see the truth in it, what is good for me may not be good for you, but it doesn't make it wrong. Paul spoke of those strong in faith and those weak in faith. For some people they need set foods, and set Holy days, set music. They need that, for others they have so much faith they don't need set foods, set Holy Days and Set music. You doing an awful lot of preaching against this music the whole time ignoring the lesson Paul taught.

Its funny and worldly for people to think we need more rules and Laws when people do not follow the ones they have. They think rules and laws equal discipline, it does not. Discipline is self control. What a different world it would be if instead of people trying to police everyone else they practiced a little self discipline and worked on their own sin. What I have learned is when i be come unbending it's because i have forgot I am a sinner. People do that, they forget they sin, if they remember they sin then they could be more accepting of others. Jesus rejected no one who came to Him, yet the world church rejects plenty of people every day, based on baptism how they look what they wear what music they listen to, how much they go to church, if they are friendly. They are all superficial judgement and none are God's. So how can they say we are a Church of Jesus, when they reject those who are with Jesus and those coming to Jesus based on their own judgement. Hebrew 6 If a man taste of the fruit of Heaven and rejects God still he can never be brought back. I think this must be about those in the church who do not follow Jesus but claim we are saved. I have never seen some one lost who claims they see get saved and have actual sight. Jesus spoke to this people in His day, and they would not turn even with God speaking right to them in front of their face, in fact they murdered Jesus. Maybe this is what Heb 6 is about.

Lets be clear I am not speaking to you, I was talking about people in general with that last part. Namely those in the church who say Jesus but do not follow Him, because I think that is a bigger problem than what music we listen to.

 

[Hammster]

Sorry your spinning a web but you have not made the structure lines. If you can show me God laid down this Law fine, but i will not accept laws of men about how to worship God. Man made rules I don't have. Rule for my self yes I have which are taken from God. Such as remain in God's word daily, I try to pray for someone daily, I try to praise God daily. This is all from God's wisdom. But if you start talking about what rules are put on me you mind stumble, because i have very few. I am all about spirit, I worship in Spirit. so I do not say sunday is my Holy day, nor do I say Friday at sun down is. But I see the point Jesus made the Sabbath was made for man, so I take one day a week rest, I don't think what day, just as long as I take a day out of 7. For me that is worshiping the Sabbath in Spirit. You probably don't understand that, but I see the truth in it, what is good for me may not be good for you, but it doesn't make it wrong. Paul spoke of those strong in faith and those weak in faith. For some people they need set foods, and set Holy days, set music. They need that, for others they have so much faith they don't need set foods, set Holy Days and Set music. You doing an awful lot of preaching against this music the whole time ignoring the lesson Paul taught.

Its funny and worldly for people to think we need more rules and Laws when people do not follow the ones they have. They think rules and laws equal discipline, it does not. Discipline is self control. What a different world it would be if instead of people trying to police everyone else they practiced a little self discipline and worked on their own sin. What I have learned is when i be come unbending it's because i have forgot I am a sinner. People do that, they forget they sin, if they remember they sin then they could be more accepting of others. Jesus rejected no one who came to Him, yet the world church rejects plenty of people every day, based on baptism how they look what they wear what music they listen to, how much they go to church, if they are friendly. They are all superficial judgement and none are God's. So how can they say we are a Church of Jesus, when they reject those who are with Jesus and those coming to Jesus based on their own judgement. Hebrew 6 If a man taste of the fruit of Heaven and rejects God still he can never be brought back. I think this must be about those in the church who do not follow Jesus but claim we are saved. I have never seen some one lost who claims they see get saved and have actual sight. Jesus spoke to this people in His day, and they would not turn even with God speaking right to them in front of their face, in fact they murdered Jesus. Maybe this is what Heb 6 is about.

Lets be clear I am not speaking to you, I was talking about people in general with that last part. Namely those in the church who say Jesus but do not follow Him, because I think that is a bigger problem than what music we listen to.

Not to be argumentative, but you do accept man-made laws. If you say the How He Loves is a good song, you have to have something to measure it against. Unless you have a specific verse that says that song is okay, you have made your own law that says it is. (I'm not arguing for or against the merits of the song).

We all have laws (personal guidelines) we follow when we decide which is good and bad worship music. Mike just happens to have his written out. We can agree or disagree. But we cannot say he has man-made laws and we don't.

 

[miamited]

So they don't have to be Trinitarian?

Hi mike,

Not for my approval. I am comfortable with pretty much any song that gives glory to God.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Hammster]

Hi mike,

Not for my approval. I am comfortable with pretty much any song that gives glory to God.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Are you Trinitarian?

 

[Hammster]

Hi hammster,

Probably not in some respects. I do believe that there is a God, the Father. That He has a Son, Jesus. And that integrated through them and us there is the Holy Spirit. No, I'm not one to proclaim with any confidence that Jesus is God. My understanding, and it comes from many, many years of study and prayer on the issue is that God, the Father created all things. That Jesus and the Holy Spirit have co-existed with God in an eternal nature. What I have gleaned through the Scriptures is that God created this realm through and for His Son. It was created with a purpose in which God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit all play a part towards the salvation of man.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Okay. I've never encountered a non-Trinitarian baptist before.

 

[Hammster]

Hi hammster,

Probably not in some respects. I do believe that there is a God, the Father. That He has a Son, Jesus. And that integrated through them and us there is the Holy Spirit. No, I'm not one to proclaim with any confidence that Jesus is God. My understanding, and it comes from many, many years of study and prayer on the issue is that God, the Father created all things. That Jesus and the Holy Spirit have co-existed with God in an eternal nature. What I have gleaned through the Scriptures is that God created this realm through and for His Son. It was created with a purpose in which God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit all play a part towards the salvation of man.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Okay. I've never encountered a non-Trinitarian baptist before.

 

[miamited]

Hi hammster,

Well, as I said, I'm not necessarily non-Trinitarian, but my understanding of what that defines may be a bit different than many Baptists. For me that's ok. My goal is not to agree with Baptists, but to agree with God. We can certainly have a discussion regarding this, as I have before, but it should probably be done through a different thread or venue than this. There are actually a number of doctrines, ideas, teachings for which I am not in agreement with some Baptists. Predestination is one that gets a lot of discussion.

God bless you,
In Christ, Ted