Praise Song Cruncher by Table Talk Radio

[mikedsjr]

I've been meaning to make this a topic for awhile, so here is the checklist they put together. They are a Lutheran podcast, so #4 on the list could be controversial to an extent. There are several worship songs my church sings that don't pass this test. Interesting enough there are Hymns that don't pass this either. This doesn't surprise me because of Weslyan theology. This is one of the first versions of this Cruncher. It's been tweaked several iterations since. Everything from below this line is from Bryan Wolfmueller's site:
https://wolfmueller.wordpress.com/2011/01/08/the-praise-song-cruncher/

1. Jesus

“Is Jesus mentioned?”

Yes | No If yes, is it in name or concept?

2. Clarity

Is the song clear? Does it use sentences (with subject, verb, object) or sentence fragments?

Very clear 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 Obscure

3. Mysticism (Subjectivity vs Objectivity)

Is the song about the things that God has done (objective), or about my own emotions and experiences (subjective)? Does the song repeat the same phrases over and over in an hypnotic mantra?

Objective 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 Subjective

4. Law and Gospel

Does the song proclaim the law in its sternness and the Gospel in its sweetness? (The Gospel is the promise of the forgiveness of all sins won for us through Jesus’ death on the cross.) Are law and Gospel rightly divided (and not mixed up)? Is the law presented as something that we can do, or does it show us our sins? Is the Gospel conditional (based on my actions, decisions, acceptance)?

Yes No I can’t tell

5. Is there any explicit false teaching?

These five questions, and especially questions two and three help dig up the bones of mysticism.

 

[John Robie]

Is it possible to have a song that is strictly praise? Or is that not their intent?

 

[mikedsjr]

John, So long as the Praise Song fits within these boundaries, absolutely they approve. Do you have an example Praise Song.

 

[John Robie]

John, So long as the Praise Song fits within these boundaries, absolutely they approve. Do you have an example Praise Song.

I'll see if I can dig one up. [emoji1]

 

[miamited]

This is praise to God through the music of our voices. If any song sings the truth of God and offers Him praise and glory and adoration for who He is - that is a praise song. I'm not sure that I agree with the law of praise songs that your source explains. A praise song is a praise song. Now, I may not like the rhythm or melodic sound of a particular praise song, but that doesn't define what a praise song is - just what I prefer as a praise song.

God bless you all,
In Christ, Ted

 

[mikedsjr]

Hopefully this worked. At the 25:07 mark they do the Praise Song Cruncher, but first explain it Cruncher and its purpose.

 

[mikedsjr]

Ted, yes, if they sing the truth of God and praise to God. What truth is being proclaimed in the song? What God is being praised? Can you prove from the song your answers?

 

[twin1954]

This is praise to God through the music of our voices. If any song sings the truth of God and offers Him praise and glory and adoration for who He is - that is a praise song. I'm not sure that I agree with the law of praise songs that your source explains. A praise song is a praise song. Now, I may not like the rhythm or melodic sound of a particular praise song, but that doesn't define what a praise song is - just what I prefer as a praise song.

God bless you all,
In Christ, Ted

I had two problems with the song actually: first was the rhythm; it had that Latin flair that makes you want to move your body and focus on the music itself not the words. Second, it was sung in such a way as to call attention to the singers though supposedly God was the subject of the song.

Perhaps I will do a video of the praise song "I Stand In Awe Of You". Done right it truly moves the heart toward the Godhead in worship. I tried to find a decent rendition of it on youtube but they were all too music and singer focused for me.

 

[twin1954]

I've been meaning to make this a topic for awhile, so here is the checklist they put together. They are a Lutheran podcast, so #4 on the list could be controversial to an extent. There are several worship songs my church sings that don't pass this test. Interesting enough there are Hymns that don't pass this either. This doesn't surprise me because of Weslyan theology. This is one of the first versions of this Cruncher. It's been tweaked several iterations since. Everything from below this line is from Bryan Wolfmueller's site:
https://wolfmueller.wordpress.com/2011/01/08/the-praise-song-cruncher/

1. Jesus

“Is Jesus mentioned?”

Yes | No If yes, is it in name or concept?

2. Clarity

Is the song clear? Does it use sentences (with subject, verb, object) or sentence fragments?

Very clear 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 Obscure

3. Mysticism (Subjectivity vs Objectivity)

Is the song about the things that God has done (objective), or about my own emotions and experiences (subjective)? Does the song repeat the same phrases over and over in an hypnotic mantra?

Objective 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 Subjective

4. Law and Gospel

Does the song proclaim the law in its sternness and the Gospel in its sweetness? (The Gospel is the promise of the forgiveness of all sins won for us through Jesus’ death on the cross.) Are law and Gospel rightly divided (and not mixed up)? Is the law presented as something that we can do, or does it show us our sins? Is the Gospel conditional (based on my actions, decisions, acceptance)?

Yes No I can’t tell

5. Is there any explicit false teaching?

These five questions, and especially questions two and three help dig up the bones of mysticism.

While I agree with much of the "cruncher" I think it may be a little too rigid. While we know that all that can be known of God is seen in the face of Jesus Christ we worship a Triune God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We always get into trouble when we start setting up rules to judge by.

I do have some things that I go by in my determination to sing a song or the music that is played with it but I try to not be too strict. My question is usually does it turn your heart to the one true God in awe and worship and put you in the dust before Him?

 

[mikedsjr]

While I agree with much of the "cruncher" I think it may be a little too rigid. While we know that all that can be known of God is seen in the face of Jesus Christ we worship a Triune God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We always get into trouble when we start setting up rules to judge by.

I do have some things that I go by in my determination to sing a song or the music that is played with it but I try to not be too strict. My question is usually does it turn your heart to the one true God in awe and worship and put you in the dust before Him?

You won't get a complaint from them we serve a triune God. Im curious why you think this doesn't help? What I'm reading is a little bit of ambiguity can't be bad. I have a name for songs I think fit this Cruncher and I'm willing to sing in church. I called them Parable songs. They're purposefully written to keep non-Christians from God but allow Christians to sing in Truth. I'm not sure if you mean some form of this.

 

[miamited]

I had two problems with the song actually: first was the rhythm; it had that Latin flair that makes you want to move your body and focus on the music itself not the words. Second, it was sung in such a way as to call attention to the singers though supposedly God was the subject of the song.

Perhaps I will do a video of the praise song "I Stand In Awe Of You". Done right it truly moves the heart toward the Godhead in worship. I tried to find a decent rendition of it on youtube but they were all too music and singer focused for me.

Hi twin,

I can appreciate your complaints. I, for many years, participated in the choirs of the various fellowships that I attended and I was always frowned on because I also lift my hands and sing with joy and look to the heavens when I sing. For me it was a wonderful experience and I can tell you that I never did it to seek for others to 'watch me', but I've run into plenty of 'those people' who think that the singers should be drab, dull drones when they sing. Personally, I'm just the opposite, I truly enjoy and rejoice in my heart when I see the singers really praising God with all that they are rather than just some dour face. I look at those people and know that they are having a real relationship and experience through the Holy Spirit with their Creator. I like that! I like singing with and listening to singers who I can see really love God. Not just by the words they're reading in some music score for which they may or may not agree with what they're singing, but it's what's written on the page so they sing it. I want to see by their actions that they are truly singing to and experiencing closeness to their maker in their praise.

You see, for me, when I'm singing in corporate worship, I'm not singing to you or for you. I could care less if you're even out there. I'm singing my praise to my God and so any 'performance' that you might believe is because I want you to see me is not for your benefit -- It's for His! You might consider, rather than thinking that people who sway and move their hands and sing with joy aren't really doing it for your attention. They probably don't even know that you exist out there in the congregation.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[mikedsjr]

ted, Do you have a song that gives you the "experience" you speak of that we can put through the Cruncher?

 

[mikedsjr]

I think most people are afraid of the Cruncher, because they know it removes their "experience" they crave. Who cares if it is truthful.

I would love to find out if there is a Sermon Cruncher, but I doubt there is one. If I was to make one, the first thing would be, "How many minutes until the first verse from Scripture is read." This question alone can weed out bad sermons. The last church I attended, the pastor went 20 minutes in a 30 minute "sermon" to quote a part of a verse. And that was it. How is that called preaching? So you have to know, if the music is mystical and doesn't speak truth clearly, and Scripture is God breathed, people are walking out thinking they were fed but they were given nothing but moralism.

 

[John Robie]

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. - Philippians 4:8

I think this fit with the cruncher, if taken in the context it was meant.

Perhaps the cruncher is too rigid. But I think it's right side to err on. It will eliminate the "Jesus is my boyfriend" songs, the me, me, me songs, and the obscure "is this or isn't this about Jesus" songs.

 

[mnorian]

I've been meaning to make this a topic for awhile, so here is the checklist they put together. They are a Lutheran podcast, so #4 on the list could be controversial to an extent. There are several worship songs my church sings that don't pass this test. Interesting enough there are Hymns that don't pass this either. This doesn't surprise me because of Weslyan theology. This is one of the first versions of this Cruncher. It's been tweaked several iterations since. Everything from below this line is from Bryan Wolfmueller's site:
https://wolfmueller.wordpress.com/2011/01/08/the-praise-song-cruncher/

1. Jesus

“Is Jesus mentioned?”

Yes | No If yes, is it in name or concept?



2. Clarity

Is the song clear? Does it use sentences (with subject, verb, object) or sentence fragments?

Very clear 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 Obscure

3. Mysticism (Subjectivity vs Objectivity)

Is the song about the things that God has done (objective), or about my own emotions and experiences (subjective)? Does the song repeat the same phrases over and over in an hypnotic mantra?

Objective 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 Subjective

4. Law and Gospel
F

By these criteria songs made up of the Psalms would not pass. A lot of worship and hymns are made up of the Psalms and other scripture. It was explained to me by a Baptist preacher years ago that in the Old Testament, when they say "Lord" this is talking about Jesus as He was here from the beginning with the Father. And as far as repeating verses; Psalm 136 repeats "For His mercy endures forever" everyone of the 26 scriptures in it; repeating is for emphasis and to help us remember.

 

[mikedsjr]

By these criteria songs made up of the Psalms would not pass. A lot of worship and hymns are made up of the Psalms and other scripture. It was explained to me by a Baptist preacher years ago that in the Old Testament, when they say "Lord" this is talking about Jesus as He was here from the beginning with the Father. And as far as repeating verses; Psalm 136 repeats "For His mercy endures forever" everyone of the 26 scriptures in it; repeating is for emphasis and to help us remember.

Some very good comments. Some Psalms wouldn't make sense if they were entirely sung at church. Some are much longer than a 3-4 minute modern song could handle. I'm not sure which worship songs are made from hymns.

I would agree the Lord is spoken of as Jesus many times. Psalm 136 would take on much greater meaning by singing that. I'll try to find a song with the repetition they refer to.

 

[miamited]

ted, Do you have a song that gives you the "experience" you speak of that we can put through the Cruncher?

Hi mike,

I imagine that most of the music I listen to meets the 'cruncher' criteria. I'm just always wary of attempts to set some set of rules, or law, that one attempts to set up to make sure that everyone is doing it right. Of course, that is outside of God's work in doing such things. He is, after all, perfect in all that he does. Humans, not so much.

Music in worship services is regularly a sticking point with many congregants. But, it's generally more of one liking one particular style or rhythm used in music rather than what is being said through the words of the song. Just as someone posted earlier that they didn't particular care for the latin sound of the music, if you're latin, that's how most of your music is done. The Brooklyn Tab, I believe, tries to accommodate the sounds of various cultures because they minister to a community of various cultures.

So, I expect the 'cruncher' is fine for those who like to rule and reign over what others should be listening to. I'm more of a mind that the Holy Spirit will direct all of those who are God's children in deciding what is or isn't praiseworthy music. In using music for ministry one must consider using the kind of music that their audience will at least listen to. If someone sends me a rap music praise song I'm not likely to even listen beyond the first few seconds of the song, but there may be someone else who enjoys rap style that may get to hear the gospel and the love of God that they may not even consider it if they have to listen to some staid and dour group singing Amazing Grace.

Finally, as regards this issue brought up about the people in the choir seeming to have a kind of 'look at me' attitude in their singing. I enjoy listening and participating in music that really moves the soul to express a physical and outward desire to praise God. I suppose that's because I'm like them. When I'm singing praises to my Creator, I want Him to know that I'm not just some guy reading words from a music sheet. I want Him to know that I honestly believe what the words are actually saying and you'll find me in worship service regularly singing with hands lifted to heaven and eyes turned up to the ceiling of the structure. As I said, I'm singing my praises to Him and really don't care if that offends or threatens someone in the congregation. I'm not singing to or for them, although I surely hope that they are listening to the words and, while somehow embarrassed or hesitant to show their pure love and joy in singing praises to their God, have that same heartfelt attitude.

I don't want to be like Donald Trump and his explanation of the communion. He says, "I take my little cracker and my little wine and I suppose that in some way that's asking God for forgiveness." When I partake of communion I'm mindful of what Jesus said was its purpose. That it is a time in which we should do some serious reflection of who he is and all that he has done for us. Similarly in my music, my attempt is not to just stand up and sing the song and then sit down having given no thought to why I'm singing and who I'm singing to.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[twin1954]

Hi mike,

I imagine that most of the music I listen to meets the 'cruncher' criteria. I'm just always wary of attempts to set some set of rules, or law, that one attempts to set up to make sure that everyone is doing it right. Of course, that is outside of God's work in doing such things. He is, after all, perfect in all that he does. Humans, not so much.

Music in worship services is regularly a sticking point with many congregants. But, it's generally more of one liking one particular style or rhythm used in music rather than what is being said through the words of the song. Just as someone posted earlier that they didn't particular care for the latin sound of the music, if you're latin, that's how most of your music is done. The Brooklyn Tab, I believe, tries to accommodate the sounds of various cultures because they minister to a community of various cultures.

So, I expect the 'cruncher' is fine for those who like to rule and reign over what others should be listening to. I'm more of a mind that the Holy Spirit will direct all of those who are God's children in deciding what is or isn't praiseworthy music. In using music for ministry one must consider using the kind of music that their audience will at least listen to. If someone sends me a rap music praise song I'm not likely to even listen beyond the first few seconds of the song, but there may be someone else who enjoys rap style that may get to hear the gospel and the love of God that they may not even consider it if they have to listen to some staid and dour group singing Amazing Grace.

Finally, as regards this issue brought up about the people in the choir seeming to have a kind of 'look at me' attitude in their singing. I enjoy listening and participating in music that really moves the soul to express a physical and outward desire to praise God. I suppose that's because I'm like them. When I'm singing praises to my Creator, I want Him to know that I'm not just some guy reading words from a music sheet. I want Him to know that I honestly believe what the words are actually saying and you'll find me in worship service regularly singing with hands lifted to heaven and eyes turned up to the ceiling of the structure. As I said, I'm singing my praises to Him and really don't care if that offends or threatens someone in the congregation. I'm not singing to or for them, although I surely hope that they are listening to the words and, while somehow embarrassed or hesitant to show their pure love and joy in singing praises to their God, have that same heartfelt attitude.

I don't want to be like Donald Trump and his explanation of the communion. He says, "I take my little cracker and my little wine and I suppose that in some way that's asking God for forgiveness." When I partake of communion I'm mindful of what Jesus said was its purpose. That it is a time in which we should do some serious reflection of who he is and all that he has done for us. Similarly in my music, my attempt is not to just stand up and sing the song and then sit down having given no thought to why I'm singing and who I'm singing to.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Do you imagine that the Lord can't know your heart of worship without the show? Of course He can. We don't need to put on a show. The show is for other people not God nor ourselves. I can rejoice in the Lord as meaningfully as anyone without them ever knowing I am doing it. I not only distract them from their worship when I act out my emotions but I distract from the actual worship of God by it. There is no need to draw attention to myself with the raising of my hands or the swaying of my body in order for me to worship Christ with all that is in me. I can stand as straight as an arrow with my hands stiffly at my sides and still sing praise to my God and Savior with all the emotion and heartfelt worship as anyone who has to move about and draw attention to themselves.

Worship isn't a body movement it is an attitude of the heart.

 

[twin1954]

I often fall on my face before God in my private worship but I would never do it in public because all it does is draw attention to myself and how much I am supposedly worshipping God. The show is very infectious to be sure but it infects people who are not truly worshipping to act as though they are. The Lord Jesus Christ forbid a show of worship.

 

[miamited]

Hi twin,

Sure, God absolutely knows the heart of every person. The question isn't whether God knows the heart, but rather whether the heart that is condemning those who outwardly show their love and adoration for Him is the heart that He is looking for. Maybe those like you do feel the exact same total love and adoration for God that those like me show in their outward display, but why would either one condemn the other. You should rejoice with those who are bold in showing their love and adoration just as much as they should likewise rejoice with you, who while apparently claiming to have the same love and adoration, somehow doesn't want it to be reflected in your appearance.

Yes, the 'infection' may affect some who are not the true worshippers of God, but aren't you the one that said God knows their heart. Do you think perhaps that those who throw in with those who are giving their all in their worship, but don't really have a heart directed towards God are going to sneak in under God's radar? Is God going to be fooled? It's actually likely that those who throw in with the outwardly worshipping, even if they start with a heart that is not right with God, may, because of the joy of such worship, reset the goal of their heart. People talk about throwing emotion out of worship, but the Scriptures seem to show that God approves of those who reflect joy in their worship.

Then the trees of the forest will sing, they will sing for joy before the LORD, for he comes to judge the earth.

It seems that when Jesus returns in judgment that we may even see the trees singing with joy. I'll be they'll have their branches lifted high.

But let all who take refuge in you be glad; let them ever sing for joy. Spread your protection over them, that those who love your name may rejoice in you.

Sing to him a new song; play skillfully, and shout for joy.

Shout with joy to God, all the earth!

I think the question you probably need to find the answer to is this: Does God condemn those who sing to Him in such manner?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted