Poll on Election

[La Bonita Zorilla]

I had said inn an earlier post: I believe the concept of "election" is not compatible with the concept of a loving God, so, as I believe in a loving God, I do not believe in that sort of Dark Ages Mumbo Jumbo.

To which tigersnare responded:

I would have to ask where you get this "concept" of God?

Why would you ask that? Seems to me It's pretty evident I got my "concept" of God from the same place as everyone else: education and experience. Have you a problem with that?

 

[rudenski]

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

It is God's will that all shall be saved...

Every Knee shall bow and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord...

Gods will and every were changed to manipilate man through fear...

But there are different dispensations...

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.



1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

 

[tigersnare]

I I got my "concept" of God from the same place as everyone else: education and experience. Have you a problem with that?

What did you learn that has led you to believe what you do about election?

 

[theseed]

The Arminians believe God desires all saved, while Calvinists believe it is only the elect? Arminians believe that salvation is offered to all.

1 Tim. 2.3-4

 

[La Bonita Zorilla]

What did you learn that has led you to believe what you do about election?

That God is a God of Love.

 

[Greeter]

I had said inn an earlier post: I believe the concept of "election" is not compatible with the concept of a loving God, so, as I believe in a loving God, I do not believe in that sort of Dark Ages Mumbo Jumbo.

To which tigersnare responded:





Why would you ask that? Seems to me It's pretty evident I got my "concept" of God from the same place as everyone else: education and experience. Have you a problem with that?

Do you have a problem with those of us who believe in "that sort of Dark Ages Mumbo Jumbo" and got that "concept" from education and experience? If not, then why call our beliefs "Mumbo Jumbo" as that term seems to be rather disrespectful of our beliefs?

 

[rnmomof7]

I am curious what the numbers are in PRE for certain beliefs about election. I have alread expressed my views in "How do you differentiate" and no longer desire to debate them. http://www.christianforums.com/t83657

I am also curious has to if there is any distinctive arguement or bible verse that helped you decide.

Seeb I just wanted to advise you that in the strictest sense Most Calvinists would disagree that the lost have "no choice" .
God restrains no man from coming to Him...so then the question is one of what will the non elect choose to do .

The position of most Calvinists is that the non elect will always chose to do what they prefer and what meets their needs and desires. So in a real sense there will be no one in hell that did not chose to be there .

 

[FOMWatts<><]

Seeb I just wanted to advise you that in the strictest sense Most Calvinists would disagree that the lost have "no choice" .
God restrains no man from coming to Him...so then the question is one of what will the non elect choose to do .

The position of most Calvinists is that the non elect will always chose to do what they prefer and what meets their needs and desires. So in a real sense there will be no one in hell that did not chose to be there .

PRECISELY!

 

[La Bonita Zorilla]

Do you have a problem with those of us who believe in "that sort of Dark Ages Mumbo Jumbo" and got that "concept" from education and experience? If not, then why call our beliefs "Mumbo Jumbo" as that term seems to be rather disrespectful of our beliefs?

Depends on the specifics. I'm American and we value the freedom to believe whatever sort of mumbo jumbo you wish. Be a druid if you want, a thane, a nymph, inquisitor, boohoo, ayatollah, or if you desire, claim to be the reincarnation of "Fatherly Comrade" Kim Il Sung who held North Korea in his iron grip for 50 years. But while you and all who express belief in harmful doctrine deserve respect as individuals, the destructive doctrines do not necessarily deserve respect.

 

[seebs]

Seeb I just wanted to advise you that in the strictest sense Most Calvinists would disagree that the lost have "no choice" .
God restrains no man from coming to Him...so then the question is one of what will the non elect choose to do .

Just to clarify, you're responding to "theseed" here, not "seebs".

 

[tigersnare]

But while you and all who express belief in harmful doctrine deserve respect as individuals, the destructive doctrines do not necessarily deserve respect.

I'm biting my tounge here.....anyone else?


Well I'll just say this, Paul seems to disagree that the doctrine of election is "harmful" and "destructive"....

 

[Lotar]

I'm biting my tounge here.....anyone else?

Always

 

[tigersnare]

Always

The Good news for me is the semester starts tuesday so I won't have time to get on here anymore, I'll spend my very rare spare time going through the Westminister Confession.

 

[G4m]

God's election:

Romans 9
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

all are inculded:

Romans 11
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

 

[theseed]

Seeb I just wanted to advise you that in the strictest sense Most Calvinists would disagree that the lost have "no choice" .
God restrains no man from coming to Him...so then the question is one of what will the non elect choose to do .

This is not a calvinist view, becasue of total depravity, no man can come to God.

 

[angeljan]

The Grace of God is the Power of God to deliver us from the corrupting influence of sin. If you are NOT experiencing this deliverance in your life, you HAVE NOT received Grace. You cannot remain in bondage to your sin & lust and claim True Salvation. There is no such thing as 'Carnal' Christianity as some so loudly claim

Grace DOES NOT remove the Righteous decrees of God. The eternal principle of 'You reap what you Sow' is still in effect. Granted your flesh 'lusts' against the Spirit and the two are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things you wish. BUT if you WALK according to the Spirit you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. (Gal5:16-18, 6:8-10. Rom8:1) :

Grace therefore gives you POWER over sin because it is 'sin' that has us in bondage to our flesh. Where human responsibility enters is in our WILLINGNESS to Obey & Follow Christ. Thus remaining 'Steadfast' to the end, is holding on by Faith in a trusting, abiding relationship. It has NOTHING to do with the 'Works' of the law.

This is where so many people go wrong defining the Gospel of Christ. The scripture we quoted out of Eph2: 8-9 says, "Not of works, lest any man should boast" Taken to the extreme, 'implies' that NOTHING is required on our part to get saved or stay saved. But again, nothing could be further from the truth. The LAW itself has NOT been removed under Grace, only the CURSE of the law. "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law." Gal3:13


Angel

 

[mrversatile48]

As I only joined today, forgive a slight repeat, but this thread is so similar, OK?

As a Christian Union President, in Liverpool Poly, 1969/71, we nearly had a split over the Calvinist/Arminian question, so I'll share the 1-liner God gave me that saved a split happening:-

"God's Sovereign will gives man free will, as robots can't love, & God is love!"

 

[tigersnare]

"God's Sovereign will gives man free will, as robots can't love, & God is love!"

Not really sure how this applies...explain.

 

[rnmomof7]

As I only joined today, forgive a slight repeat, but this thread is so similar, OK?

Welcome to CF !!

As a Christian Union President, in Liverpool Poly, 1969/71, we nearly had a split over the Calvinist/Arminian question, so I'll share the 1-liner God gave me that saved a split happening:-

"God's Sovereign will gives man free will, as robots can't love, & God is love!"

Calvinists believe that man has a free will. The question is who will believe?
That is where grace comes in . Without an act of God men will never never chose to believe

What is the purpose of Creation?

If my understanding is correct then all things are for his honor and glory

I believe we can be secure in the knowledge that nothing happens that He is not sovereign over .



You will excuse me if I say that I think that observation that men that honor and trust the sovereignty of God are 'puppets 'is disrespectful of God as God

Was Noah a puppet of God? Abraham? Isaac? Jacob? Moses? The Pharaoh? Joshua? David.? Solomon ? Or were they a part of Gods foreordained plan of Salvation?

Was John the Baptist a puppet? Mary? the apostles? Judas ? Jesus?

God is sovereignty over people, nations and events is found throughout the Bible .

(Pro 21:1** The king's heart [is] in the hand of the LORD, [as] the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will. ) He raised up Nations and He tore them down. He set up leaders and caused wars. Prophecy come true because God has ordained the events prophesied .


Gods sovereignty in the affair of nations and people..

The creation of God are not "puppets

A. Humans are self-aware, puppets are not.
B. Humans make choices, puppets do not.
C. Humans use logic, puppets do not.
D. Humans have emotions, puppets do not.
E. Humans have preferences, puppets do not.
F. Humans act in accordance with their preferences, puppets do not.
G. Humans consciously do what is determined for them, puppets unconsciously do what is determined for them.
H. Humans understand why they are doing what they are--they act for a reason; puppets do not.
I. Puppets are determined by physical necessity, humans by moral necessity.

Is there something the matter with the creator having sovereignty over His creation? Can we grant God the same free will we want to claim for ourself? for yourself?

Can God choose a man? Or is man sovereign over God?

The problem is that men think God owes them a shot at salvation..when in reality what God owes each of us is hell. He owes us nothing. The only one concerned with "fairness" is Satan . Mercy is not getting what you deserve. If you do anything to earn it it is no longer Mercy

* Rom 9:19** Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? **

* Rom 9:20** Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus? ** *

Rom 9:21** Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 

[rnmomof7]

This is not a calvinist view, becasue of total depravity, no man can come to God.

Without the grace of God men will not choose to come. But God restrains no man from coming