Pictures of Jesus.

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thecolorsblend

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"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven" (Matthew 23:9).

"...to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." (1 Corinthians 8:6).
"But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all students."
-- St. Matthew 23:8

"Rabbi" means "teacher". Our Lord says that title is not to be used. And yet (speaking of 1 Corinthians)...

God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers.
-- 1 Corinthians 12:28

So the Church has a bona fide office of "teacher". The above from 1 Corinthians is hardly the only reference to that.

So is this a contradiction?

Were Our Lord's words from St. Matthew about not using the term "teacher" absolute?

Or is there perhaps a nuance going on here that needs to be examined and understood?



....
 
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Wgw

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"But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all students."
-- St. Matthew 23:8

"Rabbi" means "teacher". Our Lord says that title is not to be used. And yet (speaking of 1 Corinthians)...

God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers.
-- 1 Corinthians 12:28

So the Church has a bona fide office of "teacher". The above from 1 Corinthians is hardly the only reference to that.

So is this a contradiction?

Were Our Lord's words from St. Matthew about not using the term "teacher" absolute?

Or is there perhaps a nuance going on here that needs to be examined and understood?

....

I thought about typing this up but as an Orthodox I am used to unsophisticates hurling criticism at us for calling our priests Father; my usual response is to shock them by translating the episcopal honorifics Mor/Vladyka/Despotin.
 
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thecolorsblend

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I thought about typing this up but as an Orthodox I am used to unsophisticates hurling criticism at us for calling our priests Father; my usual response is to shock them by translating the episcopal honorifics Mor/Vladyka/Despotin.
Protestants and evangelicals may find this next offensive but here it is anyway. I'm a bit sick and tired of these types who all claim to "take the Bible literally" constantly inventing proof-texts for this or that out of whole cloth, usually based on an abject misunderstanding what is contained in Sacred Scripture.

That guy's post wasn't even presented as a question. It was more like a "gotcha" post as if pasting something from Scripture somehow invalidates my post (which was already supposed to be jokey as it was). If he at least asked "Say, that's something that's always confounded me. Why is it you Catholics (and Orthodox and Anglicans) call that guy who dresses funny 'Father' when something-something the Bible?" I wouldn't have minded. But this snarky "gotcha" stuff really needs to stop. I mean, does he really think a Protestant has never challenged a Catholic with that before? He's the first guy to ever come at me with something like that?
 
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Root of Jesse

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You are skirting over the issue that this is not biblical. You can have bronze snakes, tombs, arks, tablets or whatever kind of religious objects you can pull out of the bible. Glorifing these things and calling them essential forms of the church has no biblical basis. It is very biblical themed but it is highly irresponsible to use "spiritual sounding" things and claim they essentials to faith and is mishandling the gospel. Icons may be about to gospel but the gospel is not about icons.
You forget...we don't believe the Bible is the only Word of God.
 
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Root of Jesse

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"Since then we are God’s offspring, we ought not to suppose that Deity (the Godhead) is like gold or silver or stone, [of the nature of] a representation by human art and imagination, or anything constructed or invented.." (Acts 17:29 AMPC).

"The idols of the nations are silver and gold, the work of human hands." (Psalm 135:15).

"And exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man ..." (Romans 1:23 ESV).

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God..." (Exodus 20:3-5).

"All who make idols are nothing,

and the things they treasure are worthless.

Those who would speak up for them are blind;

they are ignorant, to their own shame.

Who shapes a god and casts an idol,

which can profit nothing?

People who do that will be put to shame;

such craftsmen are only human beings.

Let them all come together and take their stand;

they will be brought down to terror and shame." (Isaiah 44:9-11 NIV).

“Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry” (1 Corinthians 10:14).

Little children, keep yourselves from idols (1 John 5:21).

Whether therefore you eat, or drink, or whatsoever you do, do all to the glory of God (1 Corinthians 10:31).


Their land is filled with idols; they bow down to the work of their hands, to what their own fingers have made. (Isaiah 2:8).







In idolatry, it was common for them to kiss their idols.

"And now they sin more and more, and have made them molten images of their silver, and idols according to their own understanding, all of it the work of the craftsmen: they say of them, Let the men that sacrifice kiss the calves."







Dude. That's not worship. That's love directed at what it represents. We do not worship idols, icons, or anything other than God, and you cannot show otherwise.
 
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Root of Jesse

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"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven" (Matthew 23:9).

"...to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." (1 Corinthians 8:6).


....
Ha. Ha. Ha. There we go, way off topic. What do YOU call your dad? Your teacher? Your doctor?
 
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thecolorsblend

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Ha. Ha. Ha. There we go, way off topic. What do YOU call your dad? Your teacher? Your doctor?
Whatever it is, I sure hope he can find precedent for it in Scripture. Otherwise, by Protestant standards, that would make the name/title a tradition of men, would it not? I sure hope he "takes the Bible" literally and doesn't call his pastor anything at all since there's no example of what they should be called anywhere in the New Testament.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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I am sorry. Calling somebody "Father" is what the Bible plainly says is forbidden for a person to do. Also, kissing and or bowing to idols is idolatry regardless if you are worshiping that statue as a god or not. Showing some kind of reverence of any kind for a specific object as being holy (That we made up ourselves is never taught in Scripture). Also, if one's authority is not the Word of God alone, then how does one have faith? Romans 10:17 says faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God.

...
 
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thecolorsblend

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I am sorry.
It's okay, I forgive you.

Calling somebody "Father" is what the Bible plainly says is forbidden for a person to do.
Then please reply to the post I made about using the term "teacher". Thanks!

Also, kissing and or bowing to idols is idolatry regardless if you are worshiping that statue as a god or not.
Interesting point. Forgive my boldness but would you pee on a Bible?

Showing some kind of reverence of any kind for a specific object as being holy (That we made up ourselves is never taught in Scripture). Also, if one's authority is not the Word of God alone, then how does one have faith? Romans 10:17 says faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God.

...
Actually it says "word of Christ", not "Word of God".

But anyway, John 3 says baptism is a prerequisite for salvation. No baptism, no salvation. John 6 says if you don't eat Our Lord's flesh and drink His blood, you have no life in you. No Eucharist, no life. Does your non-denomination church teach those doctrines?


...
 
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Goatee

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I am sorry. Calling somebody "Father" is what the Bible plainly says is forbidden for a person to do. Also, kissing and or bowing to idols is idolatry regardless if you are worshiping that statue as a god or not. Showing some kind of reverence of any kind for a specific object as being holy (That we made up ourselves is never taught in Scripture). Also, if one's authority is not the Word of God alone, then how does one have faith? Romans 10:17 says faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God.

...

Didn't God instruct Moses to make a serpent, a Golden one for people to turn to when bitten by a snake?

Isn't the Cross what we turn to when bitten by sin?

Idolatry is not practiced in the Catholic church. Nobody i know, worships Statues etc etc.

Do you worship your bed when you kneel in front of it to say your prayers?
 
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DamianWarS

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Neither does the electronic icon of the pastor projected on the screen. Nor does the use of electronics in worship. So let's do this, once you remove EVERYTHING and EVERY practice that isn't directly in the Scripture, we shall consider removing ours.

I don't suggest to remove all non-biblical/non-essential but merely to de-emphasize them. Although a piece of electronics is used all the time it has nothing to do with an essential/value of faith and I have never heard of anyone every saying that. To compare icons with projectors is not a like comparison. However at least you agree that an icon is non-biblical.

To be quite frank, why are you not liturgical in your worship? We know, for a fact, from the Scripture, that Liturgy was part of worship throughout the Old Testament. It was a direct command of God. And yet you, I will guarantee, are not liturgical as the Apostles would have been, since liturgy is the only form of worship the Apostles knew. Oh, and what about your incense? It was directly commanded by God, too.

liturgy is a great way to worship and glorify God. Who says I don't value it? However liturgy is an expression of worship and not the requirement of worship. To take an OT value and cite that as your example of why it is required is irresponsible use of scripture.

So before you go talking about us stating that Iconography is essential to the faith even though it isn't in the Scriptures which were canonized by Icon-venerating Saints of the very Church you accuse, consider two things:

1. Icons were considered essential to faith by the Jews in Christ's time and in the time of the apostles. And yet they didn't say one word against them.
2. You have refused to follow several commands found in the Scripture as part of your piecemeal buffet approach to the Bible. And you also have many practices that are not Scriptural that you consider essential to the faith, such as an invitation at the end of the service, or ushers bringing the plates around for offerings.

There are many things Christ does not comment on that the jews valued. We are not jews so why would we jump to this idea that because Christ did not talk about it, and Jews valued it then it must be something God wants. This type of logic is not well thought out. Icons remain non-biblical.

contextualization is a great thing. It helps an audience to really grasp the gospel and worship God with meaningful heart values. When used right they are powerful tools for the gospel. When used wrong they blur and confuse the gospel. Everyone everywhere uses these "tools" to worship and there is nothing wrong with them. But we need to hold these traditions responsibility making sure the core values of the gospel are upheld in them. But they are never required and should be held on loosely drop when they no longer represent the gospel responsibility. No doubt there are many traditions who mishandle these things however I have never heard of any tradition saying that "invitation at the end of the service, or ushers bringing the plates around for offerings" are essentials of salvation. They may be valued practices but still non-essential and recognized and taught that way.

You can either consider it comprehensive, and follow ALL of its commands, or you can assume that it didn't contain everything Christ taught. Granted, the latter actually fits with what John said at the end of his gospel, and what Paul said to the Thessalonians, so guess which one the Orthodox side with.

The bible should not have "missing" elements of the gospel. even rich traditions should never disagree with biblical values and principles. There is nothing wrong with practicing these non-biblical traditions but there is something wrong with calling them essential parts of salvation suggesting the bible is missing this topic.
 
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thecolorsblend

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There are many things Christ does not comment on that the jews valued. We are not jews so why would we jump to this idea that because Christ did not talk about it, and Jews valued it then it must be something God wants. This type of logic is not well thought out. Icons remain non-biblical.
The icons in jewish religion establishes historical precedent.

Your position clearly is that icons are now verboten. When did that change? Who changed it? How can you prove that?
 
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sculleywr

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I don't suggest to remove all non-biblical/non-essential but merely to de-emphasize them. Although a piece of electronics is used all the time it has nothing to do with an essential/value of faith and I have never heard of anyone every saying that. To compare icons with projectors is not a like comparison. However at least you agree that an icon is non-biblical.



liturgy is a great way to worship and glorify God. Who says I don't value it? However liturgy is an expression of worship and not the requirement of worship. To take an OT value and cite that as your example of why it is required is irresponsible use of scripture.



There are many things Christ does not comment on that the jews valued. We are not jews so why would we jump to this idea that because Christ did not talk about it, and Jews valued it then it must be something God wants. This type of logic is not well thought out. Icons remain non-biblical.

contextualization is a great thing. It helps an audience to really grasp the gospel and worship God with meaningful heart values. When used right they are powerful tools for the gospel. When used wrong they blur and confuse the gospel. Everyone everywhere uses these "tools" to worship and there is nothing wrong with them. But we need to hold these traditions responsibility making sure the core values of the gospel are upheld in them. But they are never required and should be held on loosely drop when they no longer represent the gospel responsibility. No doubt there are many traditions who mishandle these things however I have never heard of any tradition saying that "invitation at the end of the service, or ushers bringing the plates around for offerings" are essentials of salvation. They may be valued practices but still non-essential and recognized and taught that way.



The bible should not have "missing" elements of the gospel. even rich traditions should never disagree with biblical values and principles. There is nothing wrong with practicing these non-biblical traditions but there is something wrong with calling them essential parts of salvation suggesting the bible is missing this topic.
Icons do not disagree with biblical values in any way, shape, form, or fashion when used according to the way that is taught in the Church. What Iconodules, like myself, are saying is that regardless of your opinion, Icons are directly tied into the Incarnation, and they are not idols. And it is necessary for one to believe that, since God became man, He can be depicted in an image of the man He became. That is necessary not because we value Icons. We value Icons because that is a necessary part of our Faith. God became man. That is core to the gospel. It is a simple result of the Incarnation that God can be depicted in images.

Also, I bring up liturgy because it is a command of Scripture, and not a simple guideline. It is the way the early Church worshiped because they also saw worship as liturgical. The word "Leitourgia" is used several times in the New Testament, as well.
 
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sculleywr

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"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven" (Matthew 23:9).

"...to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." (1 Corinthians 8:6).


....
funny that came up in a context that is completely irrelevant to the quote, since the word "Holy Father" is in relation to God the Father.
 
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sculleywr

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Possibly to fake a miracle.



Can you please show how putting bee repellent on a small area would endanger an entire colony of bees. I assume he would have more than one beehive.
Possibly because liquids don't just stay in one place. They flow and aerosolize and vaporize in heat, and drip when applied. You're assuming that a miracle is faked, not knowing anything about it or how the Orthodox handle miracles. For example, when the Iveron Icon began streaming myrrh, the first thing we did was an exorcism. This is standard protocol regarding miracles in the Orthodox Church. We are naturally skeptical at the beginning. We examine it every which way to make sure that it is real before promoting it.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Didn't God instruct Moses to make a serpent, a Golden one for people to turn to when bitten by a snake?

Isn't the Cross what we turn to when bitten by sin?

Idolatry is not practiced in the Catholic church. Nobody i know, worships Statues etc etc.

Do you worship your bed when you kneel in front of it to say your prayers?

FYI I have never knelt at my bed nor have I ever "said" prayers. I know that many people do these things. I pray to the Father through Jesus Christ, but don't merely repeat or say prayers written by others.
 
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Goatee

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FYI I have never knelt at my bed nor have I ever "said" prayers. I know that many people do these things. I pray to the Father through Jesus Christ, but don't merely repeat or say prayers written by others.

So, you have never said the Prayer given to us by Our Lord Jesus Christ? The Our Father?
 
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sculleywr

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FYI I have never knelt at my bed nor have I ever "said" prayers. I know that many people do these things. I pray to the Father through Jesus Christ, but don't merely repeat or say prayers written by others.

Why would it be wrong to repeat a prayer if you mean the prayer? It is not simply repetition that is bad, but vain repetition. The point was that the reason the Pharisees were wrong is that they would say the prayers with the intention of being seen as righteous by men. Proper prayer, with contrition and compunction, is always holy, even if it is a prayer from a book. If I say "Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal have mercy on us" with compunction, it is as effective as if I prayed spontaneously with compunction. If one means the words, then one is truly praying.

So no, I don't "merely" repeat the prayers of others. I mean the prayers of others when I pray them. Prayer is about the spirit of prayer, and not the words themselves
 
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