OSASers must believe that God created human robots!

[FreeGrace2]

Where does it say believers are predestined to be conformed to His image? I believe says those whom God foreknew.

In the context of Rom 8, those God foreknew are believers. Obviously.

Please inform us of anyone who was not foreknown to God. Was God's omniscience lacking in foreknowing some people?

The context shows that in Rom 8:29, the foreknown are believers only. No one else.

Please answer this question: if 'foreknown' refers to all of mankind, why would God predestine everyone to conform to the image of Christ, when that isn't even possible for unbelievers?

 

[EmSw]

In the context of Rom 8, those God foreknew are believers. Obviously.

The context shows that in Rom 8:29, the foreknown are believers only. No one else.

Please answer this question: if 'foreknown' refers to all of mankind, why would God predestine everyone to conform to the image of Christ, when that isn't even possible for unbelievers?

So, you are saying God didn't know unbelievers beforehand. That would include everyone who has ever lived, including you and me. Pretty sad commentary. Plus, you have made His omniscience pretty much nil.

Have you ever thought God desires everyone to conform to His image? It is man who doesn't want everyone to conform to the image of Christ; some will even make their doctrine from this.

Now my question to you: If God desires everyone to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, why is this not possible?

 

[EmSw]

No one who reads the Bible could ever arrive at such a conclusion as that.

Unlike Marvin, I see you don't believe God predestines everything.

 

[JLB777]

In the context of Rom 8, those God foreknew are believers. Obviously.


The context shows that in Rom 8:29, the foreknown are believers only. No one else.

Please answer this question: if 'foreknown' refers to all of mankind, why would God predestine everyone to conform to the image of Christ, when that isn't even possible for unbelievers?

Because it's God's will that all come to repentance, and be saved, therefore it's God's will that all mankind be conformed to the Image of His Son.

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

So, you are saying God didn't know unbelievers beforehand.

No, I didn't say that, nor did I mean that. I was pointing out who the "foreknown" refer to in Rom 8:29, that's all. Of course God knows everyone. He's omniscient. But it is only to believers that Rom 8:28-39 applies.

That would include everyone who has ever lived, including you and me. Pretty sad commentary. Plus, you have made His omniscience pretty much nil.

The real sadness is in how some so totally misunderstand the posts of others.

Have you ever thought God desires everyone to conform to His image?

Where does the Bible say that? It doesn't. What does the Bible say? 1 Tim 2:3,4 - 3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

He desires everyone to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

He predestined all believers to be conformed to the image of His Son.

Now my question to you: If God desires everyone to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, why is this not possible?

Because God has given to mankind the freedom to believe or reject His promise of salvation through His Son. That's why.

What is your own answer to your own question?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Because it's God's will that all come to repentance, and be saved, therefore it's God's will that all mankind be conformed to the Image of His Son.

This conflates 2 different issues. One is to be saved. The other is for believers only.

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
JLB

This verse does not support your conflation.

 

[JLB777]

This conflates 2 different issues. One is to be saved. The other is for believers only.

Because it's God's will that all come to repentance, and be saved, therefore it's God's will that all mankind be conformed to the Image of His Son.

This statement reconciles with the truth of the scriptures.

The scriptures says, for God so loved the world, He gave His only begotten Son... John 3:16

God loves all men and desires for them come to repentance.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9


JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

Because it's God's will that all come to repentance, and be saved, therefore it's God's will that all mankind be conformed to the Image of His Son.

Well, I guess I'll just have to repeat myself. This conflates 2 separate issues.

One issue is getting saved.

The other issue is spiritual growth.

These are different issues.

 

[nobdysfool]

Because it's God's will that all come to repentance, and be saved, therefore it's God's will that all mankind be conformed to the Image of His Son.

This statement reconciles with the truth of the scriptures.

The scriptures says, for God so loved the world, He gave His only begotten Son... John 3:16

God loves all men and desires for them come to repentance.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9


JLB

Taken to it's logical conclusion then, you apparently don't believe in the Second Coming.

 

[FreeGrace2]

How is it He foreknows believers, and not unbelievers? The passage clearly says, 'for whom He foreknew'. How is it you want it to say what it does not say? - never mind, I know why.

As I have always said, it is up to man to decide for himself.

I've already explained all this clearly. But apparently not well enough for you. I am sorry for that. And I cannot help you understand apparently.

 

[EmSw]

I've already explained all this clearly. But apparently not well enough for you. I am sorry for that. And I cannot help you understand apparently.

You've explained it in light of your beliefs, and that's okay. If you want to add words to the text, feel free to do so. But that is not what I am looking for; I want to know who God did not foreknow. This one key aspect has escaped your explanation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You've explained it in light of your beliefs, and that's okay. If you want to add words to the text, feel free to do so. But that is not what I am looking for; I want to know who God did not foreknow. This one key aspect has escaped your explanation.

I'll explain it again. God is omniscient and has always known EVERYONE in humanity. But the passage at issue isn't about everyone, but only about those who have believed.

If my view is wrong, it should be easy to disprove.

 

[charles at doctrineprimer]

OSASers believe either (1) or (2):
(1) God chose (elected) certain humans to be given His free gift of grace-faith
(2) humans chose who would believe and receive God’s free gift of grace-faith

Either way … these humans are created into born-again Christians.
They are transformed into new creations (2 Cor 5:17).

OSASers believe these new creations cannot lose their salvation.
No matter what they do … i.e. they have NO choice in the matter!

Ergo, they actually are human robots … i.e. they have NO free will.

Here are 7 websites that expain why the the doctrine of OSAS is false …

Once Saved, Always Saved
One heresy leads to another heresy – requiring two lies! The lie of decisional regeneration
needs the lie of guaranteed eternal life to comfort the "saved" who continue living in sin.

The Inadequate Historical Precedent for "Once Saved, Always Saved" byr Steve Witzki
John J. Davis wrote an article titled: “The Perseverance of the Saints: A History of the Doctrine”
[Journal of Evangelical Theological Society 34:2 (June 1991)]. Three things make this article
of great value. First, it was written by a well-known and highly respected Calvinist theologian.
Second, it covers the key people and church groups on the topic. Third, it demonstrates that
“once saved, always saved” or unconditional eternal security was not a doctrine that was taught
by the ancient church, nor for that manner, by any well-known theologian before John Calvin.
This doctrine is, in fact, completely foreign in the history of Christianity.
… Furthermore, the brand of “once saved, always saved” teaching that tells people
that they can stop believing and still be on their way to heaven (but with less rewards)
is nowhere to be found in historic Christianity prior to the twentieth century.

Once Saved Always Saved - Fact or Fiction?
According to the above Bible verses, obedience most certainly does affect our salvation
and you can lose it. I guess my point in all of this is this, if you have lost your first love
and have left the church and God and are living for the world, then maybe you need to
stop and ask yourself this most important question. Am I converted? Am I born again?
Am I on the pathway to heaven? Or am I just fooling myself ...

"Once Saved Always Saved" is a Doctrine of Deception
'Once saved always saved' is a subtle twist by false teachers. It is a doctrine of deception.
According to them ‘saved’ is a status that inherits heaven. Once we got it we will not lose it
no matter what we do. That is, even if a saved man rapes and kills a girl, surely he will go
to heaven while the unsaved victim goes to hell. It is ridiculous before the holy God.

Eternal security, Apostasy, Perseverance, Falling from Grace
If Jesus' blood saves by itself with no conditions to be met, then why is faith necessary?
The Bible expressly shows that there are conditions children of God must meet
to be cleansed by Jesus' blood.

Welcome to The JESUSFREAK.NETwork -- "Once saved, always saved" is not Biblical
Did Jesus ever teach that once you are saved, that you cannot lose your salvation?
We are assured eternal security, yes, but only to those who remain in the faith until the end.
To those who Obey Him and overcome!

Bible Question: Did the early church believe "Once Saved Always Saved"?
Conclusion: These men wrote from about A.D. 100 – 250. We do not find any statements to
the effect that once a Christian is saved, he or she is always saved. But we do find a consistent
belief, except for a few instances, that faith and works go together. This is consistent with the
teachings of the Bible. It is important to note that the doctrine of “Once Saved Always Saved”
did not appear in the literature of the church until the Reformation period.
.

For one to not believe in the eternal security of the believer, one must also proclaim that it is only by the works of men that a man can be saved; God's power is insufficient. If we are not saved by works, then there is no way that our works can keep us saved. For if one has to live by a law to stay saved, he will also find that the same law will condemn him.

 

[GillDouglas]

<snip>

Its simple, man cannot save Himself. God does so by the saving works of Christ. He knew us before the foundation of the earth. We do not seek Him, He finds us and it's then we realize the need for Him. It's impossible to resist His will. All that the Father has given Christ will remain His. Any credit given to the works of men is false, all things are made possible through Him.

 

[EmSw]

I'll explain it again. God is omniscient and has always known EVERYONE in humanity. But the passage at issue isn't about everyone, but only about those who have believed.

If my view is wrong, it should be easy to disprove.

Wow FG2, the passage says nothing about God only foreknowing those who believe. Here is the passage from Romans 8 - "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;"

How hard is it to see it is 'those whom He foreknew'? Again, absolutely nothing is said of those who believe. You have said God has always known EVERYONE, yet you contradict that statement when you put limitations on 'whom He foreknew'.

 

[EmSw]

For one to not believe in the eternal security of the believer, one must also proclaim that it is only by the works of men that a man can be saved; God's power is insufficient. If we are not saved by works, then there is no way that our works can keep us saved. For if one has to live by a law to stay saved, he will also find that the same law will condemn him.

No one here has ever said, 'it is ONLY by the works of men that a man can be saved'.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Wow FG2, the passage says nothing about God only foreknowing those who believe.

Well, this proves that my posts haven't been read. I've thoroughly explained my view, but since there seem to be no interest in what I post;

bye

 

[nobdysfool]

No one here has ever said, 'it is ONLY by the works of men that a man can be saved'.

But you have indicated many times that you do believe that man remains saved BY his works. That is unbiblical. Does one who is saved do works, i.e. things pleasing to God? Of course! But, and this is a critical distinction, he doesn't do those works to REMAIN saved (or to be saved initially), he does them because he IS saved. Works pleasing to God always FOLLOW faith, they never PRECEDE faith. Those works provide evidence of faith already possessed and acted upon.

 

[EmSw]

But you have indicated many times that you do believe that man remains saved BY his works. That is unbiblical. Does one who is saved do works, i.e. things pleasing to God? Of course! But, and this is a critical distinction, he doesn't do those works to REMAIN saved (or to be saved initially), he does them because he IS saved. Works pleasing to God always FOLLOW faith, they never PRECEDE faith. Those works provide evidence of faith already possessed and acted upon.

Let me ask you, if a man does not have good works, is he saved?

 

[nobdysfool]

Let me ask you, if a man does not have good works, is he saved?

By whose measure? Works are not the basis of Salvation. They are evidence of Salvation. And just because YOU don't see works that YOU consider pleasing to God, does not mean that there are none.

Your question is too broad, and lacks any detail. The One Who judges works is God, not man. Therefore, the question really is meaningless and has no merit.

Now, how about addressing what I actually did say, rather than trying to find some sort of "gotcha" question.