One Church or one church, means what, who is right?

[sculleywr]

Where does scripture say that the religious institution that you idolize is the truth and/or has replaced Jesus as the way, the truth and the life.

Let me make it simple, where does it say in scripture that a religious institution is Jesus Christ, because that is what you are implying?

Scripture states that through one man Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the truth, so how can you make a worldly institutionalized pillar/idol and to claim it as though it is the truth (definitel article)?

A religious institution is not the definite article that can claim to be the truth. God did not delegate his truth Jesus Christ, so that a religious institution can make that claim. All authority in heaven and on earth is given to the Kingly Chief Priest Jesus Christ.

To create a worldly temple according to the old levitical administration in place of the living temple Jesus Christ, is making the offering that the body and the hierarchy commits to Christ greater than the temple himself.

This is the same mistake that the abolished pharisical religious institution committed.

Listen to what Jesus had to say about this derogatory act by the hierarchy of that religious institution......



How angry was the Lord about this religious system and offcourse the one that exists today, that walks and breaths in its footsteps?



It is self evident that today's religious have idolized their religious institutions, along with its hierarchy more so than the living temple Jesus Christ.

This is the same crime being committed by today's religious as was the case with the pharisees.

Putting the Church where Scripture says it is isn't idolizing it. So thanks for lying about me by saying I idolize the Church.

 

[sculleywr]

The assumed authority by any cult like man beast religious system starts off by claiming preeminence over the original faith and then lays claim to itself as the temple/pillar of that religion.

Jesus Christ the Kingly Chief Priest of heaven and earth never delegated his authority to an institution to run it on his behalf in the first place. Rather the institution has assumed the position of Christ by idolizing it self as the way, the truth and the life and that no one can come to the Father except through the religious institution.

These religious make God out to be a liar and make every effort to steal authority from his only begotten Son.

How do you think that the Father will deal with these fraudsters who claim to be Christ or at the very least they setup their religious institution as if it is Christ?

Divinely given authority is what the Church has. Jesus Christ is the source of authority. He placed it in the Church.

 

[Berean777]

Many Christ/lamb like religious institutions of today speak like the dragon, that was the Pharisical religious institution of the old testament.

 

[Berean777]

Divinely given authority is what the Church has. Jesus Christ is the source of authority. He placed it in the Church.

The religious institution has either assumed his authority or at the very least replaced him as though it is Jesus Christ and this is the idol/pillar that is the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel and Jesus.

 

[sculleywr]

The religious institution has either assumed his authority or at the very least replaced him as though it is Jesus Christ and this is the idol/pillar that is the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel and Jesus.

Nope and nope.

The Church was established by Christ and was given the authority Christ gave it. Don't like it? Too bad. God said it, that settles it.

 

[W2L]

No you didn't. You diverted to a completely different topic. The topic was whether there is a structured Church with authority given from Christ like Scripture says there is. You were talking about completely unrelated things.

I said I was bowing out. I will go meditate on the Law of the Lord. Psalms 1.

Good night.

 

[Berean777]

Nope and nope.

The Church was established by Christ and was given the authority Christ gave it. Don't like it? Too bad. God said it, that settles it.

Nothing is settled friend. The patriarchs/popes who have held and also hold today a chief priesthood office are in flagrant disobedience and defiance to God the Father and the very oath that he made solely to his only begotten Son, when he established the permanent and non transferable office of Melchizedek Kingly Chief Priesthood. God did not transfer his Son's office to another pharisaical like religious institution that is built on a transferable chiefly priesthood. Sir the system that claims it has a chief priest like a patriarch or a pope is a fraud.

Please sir, let us settle the matter by at the very least acknowledging this fact.

 

[sculleywr]

Nothing is settled friend. The patriarchs/popes who have held and also hold today a chief priesthood office are in flagrant disobedience and defiance to God the Father and the very oath that he made solely to his only begotten Son, when he established the permanent and non transferable office of Melchizedek Kingly Chief Priesthood. God did not transfer his Son's office to another pharisaical like religious institution that is built on a transferable chiefly priesthood. Sir the system that claims it has a chief priest like a patriarch or a pope is a fraud.

Please sir, let us settle the matter by at the very least acknowledging this fact.

When God says something, it is settled. We aren't acknowledging facts. You're spewing slander. You call the STRUCTURE GOD CREATED pharisaical. Therefore, You believe God is a sinner. God did it. It was sin. A sinner is any being that does something sinful.

 

[Berean777]

When God says something, it is settled. We aren't acknowledging facts. You're spewing slander. You call the STRUCTURE GOD CREATED pharisaical. Therefore, You believe God is a sinner. God did it. It was sin. A sinner is any being that does something sinful.

Are you saying that God the Father sworn in with an oath, your Patriarch or the list of Patriarchs from the first to the current?

 

[sculleywr]

Are you saying that God the Father sworn in with an oath, your Patriarch or the list of Patriarchs from the first to the current?

God the Son, along with His Father Who is without beginning, and the all-Holy Spirit, established the Apostles as the founders of the Church, and led them in appointing Bishops, Elders, and Deacons in ALL of the places wherein the Church gathered. If it were not important that the Apostles themselves ordained the leaders of the Church in Samaria, then why did they travel to Samaria to ordain them? If structure in the Church were not important, then why did they give instructions for the ordination of Bishops, Elders, and Deacons in the Scriptures? Why did they, in the context of these instructions, explain the reasoning of this structure was that all things were to be done decently and in order?

If Structure in the Church were unimportant, then there wouldn't be explicit instructions for structure in the Scriptures.

If Structure in worship were not important, there wouldn't be any of the book of Leviticus and much of Exodus and Deuteronomy. Structure is part of what God commanded, so if it is sinful, then God is a sinner.

 

[Berean777]

God the Son, along with His Father Who is without beginning, and the all-Holy Spirit, established the Apostles as the founders of the Church, and led them in appointing Bishops, Elders, and Deacons in ALL of the places wherein the Church gathered. If it were not important that the Apostles themselves ordained the leaders of the Church in Samaria, then why did they travel to Samaria to ordain them? If structure in the Church were not important, then why did they give instructions for the ordination of Bishops, Elders, and Deacons in the Scriptures? Why did they, in the context of these instructions, explain the reasoning of this structure was that all things were to be done decently and in order?

If Structure in the Church were unimportant, then there wouldn't be explicit instructions for structure in the Scriptures.

If Structure in worship were not important, there wouldn't be any of the book of Leviticus and much of Exodus and Deuteronomy. Structure is part of what God commanded, so if it is sinful, then God is a sinner.

Firstly, Jesus did not place a person called a patriarch/pope in his patriarchal office. This office is solely Christ's and it isn't transferable.

Secondly, Jesus didn't legislate a ecclesiastical magisteriam to judge the masses like a court proceeding.

Lastly, Jesus didn't model an ecclesiastical hierarchical structure on the bygone mother pharisical religious system.

I cannot see in any way, how Leviticus applies to the church Jesus established. In fact there is no foundation from the old religious system babylon where our Lord was crucified. The church Jesus established is a flat functional structure, where there is one patriarch Jesus Christ and all the rest are disciples who have been apportioned grace accordingly. Disciples don't hold offices and it is clearly evident that the disciples had no such structure.

If the disciples of Jesus had no such structure, why would any one presume that they would form a structure like the pharisical one that Jesus condemned.

 

[sculleywr]

Firstly, Jesus did not place a person called a patriarch/pope in his patriarchal office. This office is solely Christ's and it isn't transferable.

The offices of the thirty some odd Patriarchs is nothing like Christ's office. They make no dogma. They manage the administration of the largest gathering on the planet. For one, they're vote in a Council is equal to that of the vote of the guy who was ordained a Bishop two days ago.

Secondly, Jesus didn't legislate a ecclesiastical magisteriam to judge the masses like a court proceeding.

Ok, you're obviously in an alternate dimension, because that is pretty much so far from the realm of what the Orthodox Church "magisterium" does. The clergy serve the Church. They do not judge the masses, and in point of fact, they don't JUDGE anyone. Their job is to council, lead, and minister to those who come to the Church, pointing them to Christ.

Lastly, Jesus didn't model an ecclesiastical hierarchical structure on the bygone mother pharisical religious system.

Then I guess GOD was a sinner because HE modeled a pharisaical religious system. God's the sinner. The Orthodox Church just copied His handiwork from LEVITICUS AND EXODUS AND NUMBERS. You do remember, ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God, right? Does that include the books of Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers? Because if it does, then God's a sinner, according to the book of Berean 7:77. Unless you can find somewhere in the New Testament that says that God DIDN'T create that system, then I'm going to say the facts three times, just so you get it.

Berean777 believes God is a sinner.

Berean777 believes God is a sinner.

Berean777 believes God is a sinner.

God is a sinner because a pharisaical ecclesiastical system is a sin and God designed a pharisaical ecclesiastical system.

Sin is sin in ALL times. So, is God a sinner, or are you wrong. Those are the only two options. You do not get to worm out of this question, because I will simply repeat it until you either admit that you're wrong, or else you put me on your ignore list so that everyone can see that you're not willing to admit when you've painted yourself into a logical corner.

 

[Berean777]

Friend, you haven't addressed the points that I have made.

In Christianity there is no transferable patriarchal office. There is no hierarchy to choose people or to judge through a magesteriam as to who is right and who is wrong. There is no basis for modelling discipleship to a pharisical like religious structure.

Come on friend, you wish to be led into your faith by others that you consider to be leaders. I lead myself into my faith as I own my faith and consider all faithful as my equals and see Jesus as my only patriarch and leader.

God is faithful so I am faithful as his Son's sheep. I know who I'm following and my motivation is intrinsic because I own my faith.

 

[sculleywr]

Friend, you haven't addressed the points that I have made.

In Christianity there is no transferable patriarchal office. There is no hierarchy to choose people or to judge through a magesteriam as to who is right and who is wrong. There is no basis for modelling discipleship to a pharisical like religious structure.

Come on friend, you wish to be led into your faith by others that you consider to be leaders. I lead myself into my faith as I own my faith and consider all faithful as my equals and see Jesus as my only patriarch and leader.

God is faithful so I am faithful as his Son's sheep. I know who I'm following and my motivation is intrinsic because I own my faith.

I haven't addressed your fantasy world because absolutely every single one of your accusations are accusations against a church that exists only inside the confines of your mind.

Look, when you're ready to deal with what the Orthodox Church ACTUALLY IS, then drop me a line. Right now I will not be a representative of the strawman you have created. It is obvious you love lying about everyone rather than truth. As it stands, Psalm 52 is written to you. You love the falsehood you have created. You believe that the Orthodox Church wants to enslave. I'm freer than I ever was out in the world being led this way and that by Satan's whims.

But obviously you don't want anything to do with the actuality of what the Church is. You want to believe it is inside your mind? Go ahead. I'll let God question you. I'll bet He'll want to know why you lie about the Orthodox Church, acting as if you know more about a group you've never interacted with than someone who has been in that group for years.

You don't realize that the Patriarch sees himself as the servant of the Church, not its leader. He is followed not because he demands respect, but because he earned it by self-sacrifice. And so did every patriarch of every Church, all the way up to the first Patriarchs: the Apostles themselves.

Now I'll say it again. You think God is a sinner because you think the ecclesiastical system He designed in the book of Exodus is a sin. Why should I listen to you, oh ye who thinks God is a sinner? Ye who thinks he knows a better system than the one designed by God. What have I to learn from someone who fancies himself wiser than God?

You go with your own personal perception. I'll stick with God. God has always and will always know better than you. His ways aren't the ways of Berean 777. Berean's ways are Berean's own. You go ahead and live by them I'm sure God will have no problem with you slandering people who were tortured, raped, beaten, and murdered for following Him. I'm sure that's something God never has a problem with.

 

[sculleywr]

Friend, you haven't addressed the points that I have made.

In Christianity there is no transferable patriarchal office. There is no hierarchy to choose people or to judge through a magesteriam as to who is right and who is wrong. There is no basis for modelling discipleship to a pharisical like religious structure.

Come on friend, you wish to be led into your faith by others that you consider to be leaders. I lead myself into my faith as I own my faith and consider all faithful as my equals and see Jesus as my only patriarch and leader.

God is faithful so I am faithful as his Son's sheep. I know who I'm following and my motivation is intrinsic because I own my faith.

Yes you own your faith. It is your own faith. The Faith of the Apostles isn't something you need, for you are wiser than the Apostles.

 

[Berean777]

Yes you own your faith. It is your own faith. The Faith of the Apostles isn't something you need, for you are wiser than the Apostles.

Your mistaken friend I was born into the eastern orthodox faith. I have no problem with the faith. However the faith is not the hierarchy.

To be a disciple of Jesus is to own intrinsically your faith. When you do then you can make disciples of the world. Looking at someone else to lead you into faith is an extrinsic form of worship.

 

[sculleywr]

Your mistaken friend I was born into the eastern orthodox faith. I have no problem with the faith. However the faith is not the hierarchy.

To be a disciple of Jesus is to own intrinsically your faith. When you do then you can make disciples of the world. Looking at someone else to lead you into faith is an extrinsic form of worship.

I never said the faith was the hierarchy. but a person NEVER owns his faith. The reason is that the Faith is God's, not ours. It isn't something we have ownership of. It is not something unique to each individual. Our committment to the Faith is the only thing we can own. But if the faith we have is something we can own, then it is not the Faith of the Apostles.

See, Scripture describes the Church as one Body with one faith. That Faith is the Rock upon which the Church is built. It wasn't Peter himself, but rather the Confession of Peter in Matthew 16, that the Church was built upon.

Now I don't know where you got your catechesis, but whoever it was from, if it existed, did not teach you Orthodoxy. Most likely, no offense intended, this is a fault of your parents for not properly teaching you as a child, because Orthodoxy is not faith in the hierarchy. Orthodoxy is a Christ-centric, Incarnation-centric Faith. Unlike Protestantism and much of western theology, instead of being centered on the Crucifixion, Orthodoxy is centered on the Birth and Resurrection of Christ.

But we NEED someone to teach us this Faith, because that is the meaning of Christianity. Christianity isn't a faith of do-it-yourselfers. It is a faith of disciples. The Great Commission doesn't say "go forth and make self-sufficient automatons". The Great Commission says "Go forth and make DISCIPLES of all nations".

You can't make disciples if you aren't teaching people how the Faith was given to the Apostles and preserved by the succession of the Presbyters in the Church (Second Century Irenaeus).

What I would say is that before you continue to rail against what you think the Orthodox Church is, you should read
An Introduction to the Orthodox Church by Father Anthony Coniaris. That and a listen to several episodes of Orthodixie with Father Joseph Honeycutt, especially Clergy Feet are Made of Clay.

I don't know what you were taught about Orthodoxy growing up, but it's likely it's really a sadly common story as found in any church, regardless of denomination: parents who do not raise their children up to understand the Faith, leaving the education of their children in the twenty minutes a week the Church has an opportunity to say something

 

[Berean777]

I never said the faith was the hierarchy. but a person NEVER owns his faith. The reason is that the Faith is God's, not ours. It isn't something we have ownership of. It is not something unique to each individual. Our committment to the Faith is the only thing we can own. But if the faith we have is something we can own, then it is not the Faith of the Apostles.

5Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Can’t you see for yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you—unless you actually fail the test? 6And I hope you will realize that we have not failed the test. (2 Corinthians 13:5-6)

The only faith that has the individual owning their faith, is Christianity. Christianity is a narrow path, where an individual takes ownership of their faith by truly examining themselves to whether they have found God and that Christ lives in their heart. This is intrinsically motivated and is a life learning process in a person's life long sanctification, that is life long walk with God.

The faith of the apostles back then is the same faith of the living apostle responding to you. If we cannot seek God individually by carrying our own crosses, then we cannot find God through a group effort. Sure God resides where two or more are gathered, yet those two or more who are gathered had already found God individually by owning their faith.

 

[sculleywr]

5Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Can’t you see for yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you—unless you actually fail the test? 6And I hope you will realize that we have not failed the test. (2 Corinthians 13:5-6)

The only faith that has the individual owning their faith, is Christianity. Christianity is a narrow path, where an individual takes ownership of their faith by truly examining themselves to whether they have found God and that Christ lives in their heart. This is intrinsically motivated and is a life learning process in a person's life long sanctification, that is life long walk with God.

The faith of the apostles back then is the same faith of the living apostle responding to you. If we cannot seek God individually by carrying our own crosses, then we cannot find God through a group effort. Sure God resides where two or more are gathered, yet those two or more who are gathered had already found God individually by owning their faith.

We cannot seek God on our own. Think of this. How can one "Submit yourselves one to another" on his own? How can a person "Not forsake the assembling together of the brethren" on his own? These are part of the Faith. There is ONE Faith, delivered ONCE for ALL the Saints. It isn't yours. If it is yours, then it isn't Christ's.

You can have your own faith, or you can have the ONE Faith Delivered once for all the Saints (Jude 3). When the Scripture refers to the faith, it NEVER mentions personal ownership. It is crystal clear. Scripture was not meant for private interpretation.

Think of this, name one letter of the New Testament that was written to a person who wasn't part of a larger gathering. The letters of Paul to Timothy were to the Bishop of the city of Ephesus, Timothy. Titus was Bishop over the island of Crete. Philemon was a Bishop in the city of Colosse. Every letter of the Scripture was intended for the Church, not individual misuse.

 

[Berean777]

See, Scripture describes the Church as one Body with one faith. That Faith is the Rock upon which the Church is built. It wasn't Peter himself, but rather the Confession of Peter in Matthew 16, that the Church was built upon.

Christianity was never about being part of a religious group, rather Christianity is about being individually joined to Christ and as Jesus says my sheep know me and they hear my voice. Notice the sheep mentioned is in the singular meaning individually. Even the parable of the 99 sheep with one individual missing is another narrative for individuals coming to Christ individually and not collectively as a group. Sure the body of Christ is a collective of individual sheep that are known to the Lord.

As Jesus says I stand at the door of your hearts and knock and if any one hears my voice and opens their heart to me, I will come into them and sup with them.

You see individual hearts are finding Christ. A religious institution can't find God for you, you must seek him with all your heart as an individual and this is what I meant by owning your faith.