once saved always saved?

[St_Worm2]

Are you laboring for the food that leads unto eternal life whereby you would have the seal of God?

Hi Jason, you are correct, Jesus told those who were following Him that they should work for the food that leads to eternal life (in John 6:27). As can be expected, those He was speaking to asked Him which works, specifically, were the works they needed to do (see John 6:28). His answer to them was:

“This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” ~John 6:29​

Is this correct, or do you believe that Jesus failed to tell them (and therefore us) all that we need to know (and that there are, in fact, additional things that we must do in this life to be able to receive eternal life)?

Thanks!

--David

"He who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me,
has eternal life, and does not come into judgment,
but has passed out of death into life"
John 5:24​

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

But how do you not see your belief as not being a license for immorality? The Bible already warns us against such a thing when it says,

"For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality" (Jude 1:4 NIV).

In other words, if there was no penalty anymore for speeding on the high way, guess what is going to happen. More people are going to break that new speed limit law and drive more unsafe on the high ways. For it is only natural for man to do the wrong thing especially if he knows there is no major consequence in doing that wrong thing.


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Who said anyone need a license to sin or immorality. We are sinners by nature. Only by the Almighty Eternal Power of the Holy Spirit will one be able to overcome their sin and have daily victory over them, but through sanctification of the Spirit.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is a HUGE difference between the KJV ,and the niv.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hi Jason, you are correct, Jesus told those who were following Him that they should work for the food that leads to eternal life (in John 6:27). As can be expected, those He was speaking to asked Him which works, specifically, were the works they needed to do (see John 6:28). His answer to them was:

“This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” ~John 6:29​

Is this correct, or do you believe that Jesus failed to tell them (and therefore us) all that we need to know (and that there are, in fact, additional things that we must do in this life to be able to receive eternal life)?

Thanks!

--David

"He who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me,
has eternal life, and does not come into judgment,
but has passed out of death into life"
John 5:24​

In regards to John 6:29 and the Biblical teaching on Conditional Security:

Well, first, believing in Jesus is believing in the Jesus as described in the Bible and it is not believing in another Jesus that Scripture does not describe. Jesus says if you do not do what he says you are like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27). Jesus also said that not everyone who says unto Him, Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that does the will of the Father (Matthew 7:21). What is the will of the Father or the will of God? 1 Thessalonians 4:3 says the will of God is our Sanctification or holiness. Are you believing in Jesus if you are refusing to do what he says? No. For Jesus says why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say? (Luke 6:46).

Second, were the disciples who walked away from Jesus continuing to believe on Jesus? (John 6:66). No. They only believed for a time. Why did they stop believing on Jesus? They stopped believing because they were offended by what Jesus told them to do. Eat of his flesh and drink of his blood. For Jesus says that if you do not eat of his flesh and drink of his blood there is no life in you. Many today in Christianity are failing to eat of Christ's flesh and drink of his blood, as well (And thereby they are not doing the work of God in truly believing in Jesus the correct way). In John 4:34, Jesus says, "My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." 1 John 1:7 says, "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

Third, 1 John 3:7 says he that does righteousness is righteous; And 1 John 2:29 says, "ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him." Okay, so we established two Bible facts here.

Bible Fact #1. Doing what is righteous makes one righteous.
Bible Fact #2. Everyone who does righteousness is born of God.

Now, keeping these Bible facts in mind, what does the "Wedding Garment" represent in the Parable of the Banquet? Well, in Revelation 19:7-8, we learn that the clothes (Wedding Garment) or the fine linen that the bride (the church) wears for the Lamb speaks of the righteousness of the saints.

Revelation 19:7-8
"...for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

This plays beautifully with the Parable of the Wedding Banquet in Matthew 22. Those Gentile believers who did not have on a wedding garment (i.e. They did not live righteously) were bound hand and foot and cast into outer darkness. These are Gentile believers because the original group (the Jews) that slayed his servants (the prophets) were killed by the King whereby he was then forced to invite others in the highways, ect (i.e. the rest of the world, the Gentiles).

For Matthew 13:41-42 says that the Son of Man (Jesus) will send his angels to remove all those who do iniquity (sin) in His Kingdom and cast them into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire). In other words, those who proclaim a sin and still be saved doctrine and are living in sin, will be removed at the end of the Harvest (i.e. at the Judgment) and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (Matthew 13:42). Paul says, "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16). Paul says, "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;" (Titus 2:11-12). Paul essentially says that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).

So in conclusion:
John 6:29 does not support Once Saved Always Saved or Eternal Security. For having a belief in Jesus is believing on the type of Jesus described in our Bibles who commanded and required us to do many things that is essential in being a part of His Kingdom (Unless of course you are promoting a doctrine of immorality that Jude 1:4 NIV warns us against).


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[Bible Highlighter]

Who said anyone need a license to sin or immorality. We are sinners by nature. Only by the Almighty Eternal Power of the Holy Spirit will one be able to overcome their sin and have daily victory over them, but through sanctification of the Spirit.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is a HUGE difference between the KJV ,and the niv.

First, you have to realize that the King James was not written in Late Modern English that we use today. The KJV was written in Early Modern English (i.e. 1600's English) which can sometimes be a completely different animal when it comes to certain words that it uses. So we have to look at all the uses of that word and look at the context to get a fair and unbiased view of what that word is really saying.

Second, you appear to be contradicting yourself. In the first half of your post, you are saying we are all sinners (ungodly men) by nature and then in the second half of the post you are saying that there are another group of ungodly men who are ordained (decreed by God in the Calvinistic way) to Condemnation. If this is what you are saying, then you are totally missing the point of what Jude 1:4 says. For it says that these false believers (who slipped in among us) have turned the grace of our God into lasviciouness or into a doctrine of immorality. In other words, you are arguing against the very verse you are quoting, my friend.


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[sdowney717]

Who said anyone need a license to sin or immorality. We are sinners by nature. Only by the Almighty Eternal Power of the Holy Spirit will one be able to overcome their sin and have daily victory over them, but through sanctification of the Spirit.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is a HUGE difference between the KJV ,and the niv.

The story-parable of the wheat and the weeds, the wheat and the tares is clearly showing, some are sons of the Kingdom, planted by the LORD, and others are sons of the wicked one, planted by the devil.
We never are both, we are either one or the other.
This parable of Jesus is great for understanding election.

Matthew 13
The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

The Parable of the Tares Explained
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

As if that needed any more explanation!!
This here, the ones that offend, the tares, the weeds, sin continually and are sons of Satan. They have no forgiveness and never can being of course sons of Satan. They simply desire to do what their father Satan does. like father, like son, they are not a part of God's family. they are not the good seed sown by Christ in God's field.

41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire.

To practice lawlessness, Christ makes the distinction on sins, such people are either hypocrites or never repenting. they continually sin, they make a profession and practice of sinning, they never actually repent and are converted, they are never born of God, they are always sons of the devil.
They never bear good fruit, their destiny is hell. IF anyone does not bear good fruit to God, they will burn in hell fire.

Indeed, a bad tree can not bear good fruit, and a good tree can not bear bad fruit. Fruit is showing what manner of tree they are, to what kingdom they belong. Fruit is not our works, fruit is what we say with our mouth, the mouth speaks from the heart. Good fruits are produced from good hearts, and bad fruit out from wicked hearts. For out of the heart speaks the mouth. By your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sometimes the Bible speaks from God's eternal perspective and other times the Bible speaks from man's linear perspective. However, when the Bible speaks from God's perspective, this is not in conflict with the many verses that teach about how man has free will (Genesis 4:7) (Deuteronomy 30:19) (Joshua 24:15) (Matthew 23:37) (John 7:17) (Acts 3:19) (Revelation 22:17).


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[sdowney717]

Jesus says we are justified by what we say!, we are not justified by works.

Matthew 12
A Tree Known by Its Fruit
33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.

36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.

37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

In truth, the good works you do, have been determined beforehand by God for you to perform! You are His workmanship. these are not works from yourself. But they will accredit to your account. I think it is a greal deal this great salvation God has granted to us.
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus says we are justified by what we say!, we are not justified by works.

Matthew 12
A Tree Known by Its Fruit
33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.

36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.

37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

In truth, the good works you do, have been determined beforehand by God for you to perform! You are His workmanship. these are not works from yourself. But they will accredit to your account. I think it is a greal deal this great salvation God has granted to us.
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Paul says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9).

James says, "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).

James also says,

21 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
(James 2:21-24).

To put it to you another way, James and Paul go together like two sides of the same coin, they don't conflict with each other; they compliment each other. Both teach us something vital. Paul looks at what goes on internally; James talks about the external results. Paul says, "We're saved by faith." James says, "This is what saving faith looks like."

In other words, works do not save in and of themselves. Works are just the natural result of a true faith (Which is when a person repents of their sins and accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior for real). Jesus is the source of salvation (1 John 5:12). It's not you. Salvation is in Jesus Christ. For Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith (Both in Justification and in Sanctification). For Jesus deserves all the glory, honor, and power.

Old source used that is no longer available:
http://www.str.org/articles/faith-and-works-paul-vs.-james

 

[samir]

I want to get peoples input on what they believe about salvation. I don't want to get an argument started here, it is a very touchy subject and it really doesn't matter which way we believe whether we get to heaven or not. But let me know how you believe and post scripture to back your beliefs. I'm struggling with this and just want to get everyones knowledge. Thank you and please this is not to get argument started

There are so many warnings to believers about losing their justification that would all be lies if salvation was guaranteed once a person became justified. One of many examples:

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

If you look at verses people quote like John 10 and others you'll notice none of them actually teach it. They are all interpretations that go beyond what is written in order to support a man-made tradition started by Calvin in the 16th century. The early Christians were unanimous that justification was a lifelong process that could be "lost" at any time.

 

[Albion]

There are so many warnings to believers about losing their justification that would all be lies if salvation was guaranteed once a person became justified. One of many examples:

The verse you cited says only that evil-doers will not inherit eternal life. This is not in question. We all acknowledge that this is the case; those who are lost are sinners and deserve their fate. Is there any doubt about this? But it's not the point we are discussing.

 

[samir]

The verse you cited says only that evil-doers will not inherit eternal life. This is not in question. We all acknowledge that this is the case; those who are lost are sinners and deserve their fate. Is there any doubt about this? But it's not the point we are discussing.

That warning was directed to believers and Paul had to warn those believers more than once that if they did not repent they would not be saved.

If believers couldn't commit those sins or could presume they would always repent if they did there wouldn't have been any reason to warn them about not making it into heaven.

We know Paul wasn't warning unbelievers because they are already condemned regardless of the sins they commit.

 

[Albion]

That warning was directed to believers and Paul had to warn those believers more than once that if they did not repent they would not be saved.

But no one other than God really knows who is a disciple as opposed to a formal adherent.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That warning was directed to believers and Paul had to warn those believers more than once that if they did not repent they would not be saved.

I'm unaware of any verses from Paul about repenting or losing salvation.

Paul did teach repentance for salvation in Acts 17:30 and Acts 26:20. But the OP contains verses from Paul that I believe clearly teach eternal security. Paul wouldn't contradict himself.

If believers couldn't commit those sins or could presume they would always repent if they did there wouldn't have been any reason to warn them about not making it into heaven.

Where, specifically, did Paul warn believers of "not making it into heaven"?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But no one other than God really knows who is a disciple as opposed to a formal adherent.

So Paul was warning unbelievers who were in disguise as believers? Either way, they are ubelievers. One is not inbetween. One is either a believer or an unbeliever. Paul is either talking to unbelievers or believers. If Paul is warning us believers that unbelievers will not inherit the Kingdom of God then that would be like hitting us on the head with an obvious truth. It doesn't make any sense. For I do not see Paul pushing the idea of trying to refute Universal Salvation in Galatians 5. Paul is talking to believers and warning them that they have they do sinful things they will not inherit the Kingdom of God (i.e. gain entrance into God's Kingdom).

This makes sense because this backs up tons of other verses in your Bible.
Jesus says not everyone who says unto me Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven but he that does the will of the Father (Matthew 7:21).
The will of the Father or the will of God is our Sanctification or holiness (1 Thessalonians 4:3).
For without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).
Continue in his goodness otherwise you shall also be cut off (Romans 11:22).
Cut off like who? The Jews. For the Jews were cut off and missed their Messiah.
Granted one day the nation of Israel (as a whole) will come to repent here on this Earth and return to Him.
But for now, that is not the case.


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[samir]

I'm unaware of any verses from Paul about repenting or losing salvation.

Paul did teach repentance for salvation in Acts 17:30 and Acts 26:20. But the OP contains verses from Paul that I believe clearly teach eternal security. Paul wouldn't contradict himself.


Where, specifically, did Paul warn believers of "not making it into heaven"?

Galatians 5:19-21 (NKJV) - "The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."

 

[samir]

If Paul is warning us believers that unbelievers will not inherit the Kingdom of God then that would be like hitting us on the head with an obvious truth. It doesn't make any sense.

Even if the unbelievers read Paul's epistle and avoided the sins Paul mentioned they still wouldn't inherit the kingdom of God due to unbelief. It would be a meaningless warning addressed to people who most likely would not have read his epistle.

 

[Albion]

So Paul was warning unbelievers who were in disguise as believers?

Do you think so?

 

[Grafted In]

Yes.
Could you save yourself? I couldn't. Nor can I keep myself saved. It is by grace we are saved. Jesus Christ died in my place and in so doing imparted to me His Rightiousness.
I do not believe God pencils us into The Book of Life at salvation, but rather with the blood of Jesus Christ.
Though we will most likely pay for our sins in this world, God still sees the blood of His Son when He looks at us. He cannot, will not forsake us if we are truely saved. We are a member of the body of Christ. He will not forsake His Son.

 

[Grafted In]

Folks, you may notice that the 2 or 3 posts I have made tonight have been edited. My phone keeps locking up so I'm getting off for the night to see if I can figure out what its problem is.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Even if the unbelievers read Paul's epistle and avoided the sins Paul mentioned they still wouldn't inherit the kingdom of God due to unbelief. It would be a meaningless warning addressed to people who most likely would not have read his epistle.

Yes, exactly. You are right. For one, our other readers here should know that it is a command to believe on Jesus - 1 John 3:23.

Our other readers here should also know that the breaking of all of God's Commandments or laws is sin 1 John 3:4. For John says that he that says he knows him and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:4). If one is a liar (regardless if they are a believer or an unbeliever), their destiny is the Lake of Fire. For John also says that all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8). John makes no mention about how there is another group of liars that are an exception to the rule.

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