once saved always saved?

[FreeGrace2]

That's okay to disagree. (And, the changes in our lives are continual, as He works on us, yes - for all of our life)...
Then, read Scripture.
Scripture doesn't disagree(about the immediate change in life). >> everyone who repented and was born again had an immediate change of life (visible) that everyone saw right away at the time. This is noted throughout Scripture. Even in the OLD TESTAMENT as well as the NEW TESTAMENT.

This is not true. Consider Simon the sorcerer in Acts 8. I know some will claim he never had "saving faith", but we all know the Bible never uses such words. When someone believes savingly, the Bible simply says "they believed". Which is what Simon did. But his heart wasn't right, resulting in wanting to pay for the power to lay his hands on people for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

And don't forget King Saul, who was killed by God, per 1 Chron 10:13-14 for visiting the medium, yet Samuel, who appeared at that seance, told Saul that he would join him the next day. So we know that King Saul went to Paradise after death, proving that he was a believer and saved.

In fact, Yochanan the immerser(John the Baptist), if they didn't show true repentance, they weren't immersed(he sent them away instead of baptizing them) ! So they had to show true repentance(change) BEFORE being immersed...

Luke 3:7,8 doesn't say this:

"7 So he began saying to the crowds who were going out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 “Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father,’ for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham."

Nothing here about refusing them baptism. Nothing here about showing repentance before baptism either.

It appears he told those that he baptized to "bear fruits in keeping with repentance".

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

When someone believes savingly, the Bible simply says "they believed".

Check the Gospels again. (the people who believed, but weren't saved - they refused to follow Jesus.)
And remember also,
even the demons believed. Obviously they believed, but not "savingly".

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Nothing here about showing repentance before baptism either.

Again, check Scripture.
Who refused to accept Yeshua as the Messiah ?
In the NT , it says those who were not immersed thwarted God's Plan for their lives, and
did not accept Yeshua as the Messiah.

 

[EmSw]

This is not true. Consider Simon the sorcerer in Acts 8. I know some will claim he never had "saving faith", but we all know the Bible never uses such words. When someone believes savingly, the Bible simply says "they believed". Which is what Simon did. But his heart wasn't right, resulting in wanting to pay for the power to lay his hands on people for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

And don't forget King Saul, who was killed by God, per 1 Chron 10:13-14 for visiting the medium, yet Samuel, who appeared at that seance, told Saul that he would join him the next day. So we know that King Saul went to Paradise after death, proving that he was a believer and saved.


Luke 3:7,8 doesn't say this:

"7 So he began saying to the crowds who were going out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 “Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father,’ for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham."

Nothing here about refusing them baptism. Nothing here about showing repentance before baptism either.

It appears he told those that he baptized to "bear fruits in keeping with repentance".

So, you have broods of vipers with eternal security?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So, you have broods of vipers with eternal security?

YEAH! They even have their own clubhouses all across the world today !

 

[Freedom Now]

YEAH! They even have their own clubhouses all across the world today !

Around here those high places come equipped with steeples.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Check the Gospels again. (the people who believed, but weren't saved - they refused to follow Jesus.)

I gave actual evidence to support my comments. One is free to believe the evidence or not. But evidence IS still evidence.

And remember also,
even the demons believed. Obviously they believed, but not "savingly".

The point is completely missed. What was it that the demons believed? Was it belief in Christ for salvation? No, it was not.

But, I'll just provide more evidence:
"You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19

iow, the demons believe that "God is One". Nowhere in Scripture is believing in monotheism "saving faith".

So let's not mix apples and oranges.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Again, check Scripture.
Who refused to accept Yeshua as the Messiah ?
In the NT , it says those who were not immersed thwarted God's Plan for their lives, and
did not accept Yeshua as the Messiah.

I'll ask the same: check Scripture. Where in the NT says what is being claimed here?

Book, chapter, and verse, please.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So, you have broods of vipers with eternal security?

Where would one get "broods of vipers" out of Simon, who BELIEVED.

Let's just check Scripture, please.

12But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike.
13 Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.

OK, please show from Scripture how "they" were saved, but Simon was not.

When the Bible SAYS that someone believed, it means they believed and were saved.

If there is any verse that tells us that someone believed but was not saved, please share.

 

[Freedom Now]

This is not true. Consider Simon the sorcerer in Acts 8. I know some will claim he never had "saving faith", but we all know the Bible never uses such words. When someone believes savingly, the Bible simply says "they believed".

I beg to disagree with you on that, ..

John 8, 30 and on....

It is not just believing,...

Jesus said to those who had believed in Him,...
If you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples, and you will know the Truth,
and the Truth will make you free.


If you believe in Him, you have continue in His word...

If you abide in Me and My words abide in you,...

If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments
and abide in His love.....

IF A MAN DOES NOT abide in Me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers,
and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
Every branch of MINE that bears no fruit, HE TAKES AWAY, and every branch that does
bear fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit...

Truly, truly, I say to you, if any one keeps My word, he will never see death....



What do you think happens to the man that believe, but does not continue in His word?



May God bless you and open your eyes to see His Truth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I beg to disagree with you on that, ..John 8, 30 and on....It is not just believing,...

The Bible disagrees with your opinion. For salvation, it IS just believing. The gospel of John makes that quite clear.

Jesus said to those who had believed in Him,...
If you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples, and you will know the Truth,
and the Truth will make you free.

That's right. Those who continue in His word are truly His followers. Why would one think refers to being saved by continuing in His word? That's works, which don't save.

One is saved WHEN one believes. What happens after that becomes a family issue.

If you believe in Him, you have continue in His word...

This is getting the cart before the horse. Jesus never made that connection.

If you abide in Me and My words abide in you,...

And the result is NOT salvation, but bearing fruit.

If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments
and abide in His love.....

Yep. All this is what Jesus commands believers to DO. But not for salvation.

IF A MAN DOES NOT abide in Me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers,
and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

Why default to the lake of fire? Please study 1 Cor 3:15.

I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
Every branch of MINE that bears no fruit, HE TAKES AWAY, and every branch that does
bear fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit...

Yes, abiding in Him is for bearing fruit, not for getting saved.

Truly, truly, I say to you, if any one keeps My word, he will never see death....

If "keeps My word" refers to obedience, then salvation is based on one's effort, works, deeds. That is not taught in the Bible.

What do you think happens to the man that believe, but does not continue in His word?

He won't bear fruit; it will be burned. John 15:6, 1 Cor 3:15.

Why would anyone think a believer who doesn't continue in His word will lose salvation?

The Bible teaches that the gifts of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

The Bible teaches that eternal life is a gift of God in Rom 6:23.

Therefore, eternal life is irrevocable. Salvation cannot be lost.

 

[Freedom Now]

The Bible disagrees with your opinion. For salvation, it IS just believing. The gospel of John makes that quite clear.


That's right. Those who continue in His word are truly His followers. Why would one think refers to being saved by continuing in His word? That's works, which don't save.

Let me see if I understand you correctly, ..

You just have to believe, then one is saved, is this correct?


John 8, 30,...
Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in Him,...if you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples. ..

Were these Jews that believed in Him in John 8 , according to you, saved?

If these Jews that believed in Him in John 8, if they did not continue in His word, would these
Jews, according to you , still be saved?


If one believed in Him, but did not continue in His word, is he still a disciple?


Thank you for taking the time to answer these questions and clarifying this for me.

May God bless you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Let me see if I understand you correctly, ..

You just have to believe, then one is saved, is this correct?

Let's not take my word for it. Let's take the apostle Paul's word for it.

Jailer: "and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” Acts 16:30

Paul's answer: "They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." Acts 16:31

John 8, 30,...
Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in Him,...if you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples. ..

This is about discipleship, not how to get saved.

Were these Jews that believed in Him in John 8 , according to you, saved?

Yes, the ones who believed in Him, as v.30,31 says.

If these Jews that believed in Him in John 8, if they did not continue in His word, would these Jews, according to you , still be saved?

Not according to me, but according to the apostle Paul. But it seems there are a number of believers who don't believe what Paul taught.

If one believed in Him, but did not continue in His word, is he still a disciple?

No, of course not. That was Jesus' point.

Thank you for taking the time to answer these questions and clarifying this for me.

You're welcome.

May God bless you.

May He bless you as well.

 

[Marvin Knox]

"SAVED" is a past tense word. God means for us to see it that way.

That is why He makes it a point to use the past tense in Romans 8 - even for areas of salvation that (to us) are future events.

By the very use of the word "saved" we are saying that all of the things related to salvation are a done deal - including future glorification as God has assured us.

By definition, if one is "saved" and not simply hoping to be saved or trying to attain that condition, that includes any future events or conditions related to salvation in the comprehensive sense. This is just as the Holy Spirit makes it a point to tell us in the golden chain of salvation found in Romans 8 .

To argue against "once SAVED always saved" is to ignore the plain teaching of scripture.

To say that we ave saved in the sense that God uses the word is to say that we cannot "not" attain to glorification.

This is IMO a bit of a no-brainer for a person who reads the scriptures rightly.

 

[Freedom Now]

Yes, the ones who believed in Him, as v.30,31 says.

The curious thing is ,those who believed in Him, John 8, 30,31 and according to you are saved,

later in John 8, Jesus still conversing with the same believers said,...Verse 44....

You are of your father, the devil, and your will is to do your father's desire.....


Jesus clearly did not call these believers His children, but rather pointed out who their father (the devil) is.


I will ask again, are all that just believe in HIM saved?

If so, are the children of the devil saved , too?

 

[FreeGrace2]

The curious thing is ,those who believed in Him, John 8, 30,31 and according to you are saved,

later in John 8, Jesus still conversing with the same believers said,...Verse 44....

You are of your father, the devil, and your will is to do your father's desire.....

This is a common error. If they weren't believers, then John either lied in v.30 and 31 or he was quite confused.

Ch 8 is quite fascinating. Starting at v.13 we read..."The Pharisees challenged him".
In v.14 we have "Jesus answered" (the Pharisee challenge).
In v.19 we have "Then THEY asked Him..." The "THEY" here are the Pharisees.
In v.21 we have "Once more Jesus said to THEM" (Pharisees)
In v.22, we have "This made the Jews (Pharisees) ask..."
In v.23 Jesus tells the Jews/Pharisees: "you are from below..."
In v.25 "Who are You?" THEY asked. Again, the THEY are the Pharisees.
In v.27 we have "THEY did not understand that He was telling THEM about His Father".

Then, v.30 - "Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him." Nothing about THEY or THEM but "many". Clearly a DIFFERENT group of people than the ones who challenged Him in v.13.

Then v.31 - "To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples."

Again, very clear what John wrote: "to the Jews who had believed Him". Nothing about THEY or THEM.

Now note v.33 - "They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

Now we're back to THEY, which is the Pharisees and Jews who had challenged Him in v.13 and "didn't understand Him" per v.27.

Here's the scene: from v.13 on, Jesus is debating with a large crowd with many Pharisees in it who didn't believe in Him. But as Jesus spoke, "many put their faith in Him". iow, within the large crowd, there were some who DID believe in Him, and those are the ones He addresses in v.32.

And, after telling these new (saved) believers “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”, the unbelieving Jews butt in and interrupt Jesus with their nonsense about being Abraham's descendants (true) and "never been slaved of anyone" (totally UNTRUE).

iow, it was the unbelieving Jews who responded to what Jesus told the NEW believers.

Following from v.33 through 59, Jesus is speaking to the unbelieving Jews.

Consider v.45 - "Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!" This is in DIRECT contrast to what John wrote about "many who put their faith in Him" in v.31 and 32.

Jesus clearly did not call these believers His children, but rather pointed out who their father (the devil) is.

As I have pointed out from the text, from v.33 to the end of the chapter, Jesus is speaking to the larger group of UNBELIEVING Jews. But there was a pocket of Jews who "put their faith in Him" as John clearly wrote.

I will ask again, are all that just believe in HIM saved?

Did Paul misstate in his answer to the jailer? Seems you've dodged my answer.

If so, are the children of the devil saved , too?

Not so at all. I've explained the context and proven that there was a smaller group who DID believe, but the larger unsaved group butted in after Jesus said what He did in v.32.

There's no other way to understand this text. Your view actually has Jesus and John at odds in what they said. Is that a comfortable position? I wouldn't be at all comfortable with that position.

 

[DingDing]

I want to get peoples input on what they believe about salvation. I don't want to get an argument started here, it is a very touchy subject and it really doesn't matter which way we believe whether we get to heaven or not. But let me know how you believe and post scripture to back your beliefs. I'm struggling with this and just want to get everyones knowledge. Thank you and please this is not to get argument started

So Jake, without having to read through all the hundreds of posts, could you sum up what you have learned?

 

[EmSw]

This is a common error. If they weren't believers, then John either lied in v.30 and 31 or he was quite confused.

Ch 8 is quite fascinating. Starting at v.13 we read..."The Pharisees challenged him".
In v.14 we have "Jesus answered" (the Pharisee challenge).
In v.19 we have "Then THEY asked Him..." The "THEY" here are the Pharisees.
In v.21 we have "Once more Jesus said to THEM" (Pharisees)
In v.22, we have "This made the Jews (Pharisees) ask..."
In v.23 Jesus tells the Jews/Pharisees: "you are from below..."
In v.25 "Who are You?" THEY asked. Again, the THEY are the Pharisees.
In v.27 we have "THEY did not understand that He was telling THEM about His Father".

Then, v.30 - "Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him." Nothing about THEY or THEM but "many". Clearly a DIFFERENT group of people than the ones who challenged Him in v.13.

Then v.31 - "To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples."

Again, very clear what John wrote: "to the Jews who had believed Him". Nothing about THEY or THEM.

Now note v.33 - "They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

Now we're back to THEY, which is the Pharisees and Jews who had challenged Him in v.13 and "didn't understand Him" per v.27.

Here's the scene: from v.13 on, Jesus is debating with a large crowd with many Pharisees in it who didn't believe in Him. But as Jesus spoke, "many put their faith in Him". iow, within the large crowd, there were some who DID believe in Him, and those are the ones He addresses in v.32.

And, after telling these new (saved) believers “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”, the unbelieving Jews butt in and interrupt Jesus with their nonsense about being Abraham's descendants (true) and "never been slaved of anyone" (totally UNTRUE).

iow, it was the unbelieving Jews who responded to what Jesus told the NEW believers.

Following from v.33 through 59, Jesus is speaking to the unbelieving Jews.

Consider v.45 - "Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!" This is in DIRECT contrast to what John wrote about "many who put their faith in Him" in v.31 and 32.


As I have pointed out from the text, from v.33 to the end of the chapter, Jesus is speaking to the larger group of UNBELIEVING Jews. But there was a pocket of Jews who "put their faith in Him" as John clearly wrote.


Did Paul misstate in his answer to the jailer? Seems you've dodged my answer.


Not so at all. I've explained the context and proven that there was a smaller group who DID believe, but the larger unsaved group butted in after Jesus said what He did in v.32.

There's no other way to understand this text. Your view actually has Jesus and John at odds in what they said. Is that a comfortable position? I wouldn't be at all comfortable with that position.

The Pharisees/Jews were God's chosen people. How do you explain their loss of being chosen?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

8 But you Israel are My servant, Jacob whom I have elected; the seed of My friend Abraham4;
9 whom I have made strong from the ends of the earth, and called you from its sides; and I said to you, You are My servant. I chose you, and have not rejected you.
10 Do not fear, for I am with you; do not gaze about, for I am your Elohim; I will make you strong; yea, I will help
you; yes, I will uphold you with the right hand of My righteousness.
11 Behold, they all shall be humiliated, all who are provoked with you; they shall be as nothing; men who contend with you shall perish.
12 You shall seek them and shall not find them; men of your strife shall be as nothing, even men of your battle as ceasing.
13 For I, YAHWEH your Elohim am strengthening your right hand, who says to you, Do not fear I will help you.
14 Fear not, worm of Jacob, men of Israel; I will help you, states YAHWEH, and your 1Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
15 Behold! I have made you a new sharp threshing sledge2, a master of teeth; you shall thresh mountains and beat them small, and shall make hills like the chaff.
16 You shall winnow them, and the wind will carry them away, and the tempest will scatter them. And you shall rejoice in YAHWEH; you shall glory in the Holy One of Israel.
17 The poor and the needy seek water, and there is none; their tongue is parched for thirst. I, YAHWEH will hear them; the Elohim of Israel will not leave them.
18 I will open rivers in bare places, and fountains in the midst of valleys; I will make the desert for a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water.
19 I will plant cedar in the
wilderness, acacia, and myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set fir, pine and boxwood together in the desert;
20 so that they may see, and know, and set up, and understand together, that the hand of YAHWEH has done this; and the Holy One of Israel has created it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The Pharisees/Jews were God's chosen people. How do you explain their loss of being chosen?

I never said they lost their being chosen. Where in the world would anyone conclude that?

The Pharisees had rejected the gospel. They were never saved. They rejected the Messiah, who had been prophesied throughout the OT.