once saved always saved?

[Bible Highlighter]

I know this is a late response. I had it typed up in notepad and got distracted with other things. But...



How about you read it again.

"Nineveh changed their mind (repented) at the preaching of Jonas" - Yeshua

And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. So the people of Nineveh believed God... Jonah 3:4‭-‬5 KJV

You have it all wrong still, preaching the fruit of salvation as the root of salvation. Nineveh repented first thing when Jonah preached. Once he told them they would be overthrown they "believed God".

Nineveh's repentance - Jonah 3:5

Nineveh turns from sin - Jonah 3:10

God repents - Jonah 3:10

And God saw their WORKS, that they turned from their evil way;* and GOD REPENTED of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. Jonah 3:10 KJV


*Rom 4:4-4, Eph 2:8-9



James 2:17,

A dead dog is still a dog. Dead faith is still faith. It's a fruitless saving faith.


Knowing death speaks of separation and not cession of existence, let us look at James 2:26, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." If I were to die physically, my body would drop to the ground but my spirit would go to be with the Lord. "Absen from the body, present with the Lord (II Corinthians 5:8)." Would I still be alive? Yes, I have eternal life. But my body would not have any vital signs and would not display any life at all, yet I would be present with the Lord and very much alive.

In the same way, James says, "faith without works is dead." What does he mean? Works are to faith what the body is to the spirit. The body displays the life of the spirit. Work displays faith. The only way I can display that I am alive is with my body (movement, pulse, etc.). The only way that I can display that I have faith is by my works.

http://www.biblelineministries.org/articles/basearch.php3?action=full&mainkey=FAITH+WITHOUT+WORKS


Titus 1:16,

The context right before it says "unbelieving". You must read. All unbelievers are condemned.

Hebrews 12:14,


'Verse 14: "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord."

This injunction has been so often misunderstood and misapplied that many believers who have endeavored to live holy lives have been tormented and discouraged, thus becoming useless as good stewards, good soldiers in God's great army.

The Greek word here translated "follow" means "to pursue, to follow after." Many believers have been taught from the pulpit that if they do not live above sin - (meaning "sinless perfection") - they cannot hope to see God...

It is not through perfect peace and perfect holiness that we see the Lord: it is by grace through faith! When we have been saved by God's grace, we are to pursue peace and holiness; but we see Jesus because we are covered by the blood and saved by His marvelous grace...

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord." We note here our attitude concerning our fellowman, and also our disposition toward God the Father who loved us, and Jesus the Son who saved us.'

SOURCE: The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews; pg. 547-548; 1965; by Dr. Oliver B. Greene

Hebrews 12:14 is speaking about our influence upon other people. If we don't pursue peace with others, and live holy lives, then lost sinners WON'T see the Lord in us. You are the only Jesus someone knows. That person may go to Hell if they don't see the Lord in you. As believers, we are supposed to be the light of the world (Matthew 5:14).

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False Doctrines/Lordship Salvation/macarthur-heb1214.htm


Matthew 5:16 says, "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."


Matthew 25:30,

https://faithalone.org/journal/1992b/Huber.htm


Matthew 7:21 cf. 1 Thessalonians 4:3,

This is a terrible cross reference and here is why. 1 Thessalonians 4:3 is talking about the will of God for believers. He's talking to those already saved.


Furthermore then we beseech you, BRETHREN, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: 1 Thessalonians 4:1‭-‬3 KJV


Now here is the will of God that Matthew 7 speaks of.


Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my
-Father which is in heaven.
-And this is the will of him
-that sent me, that every one
-which seeth the Son, and
-believeth on him, may have
-everlasting life: and I will
-raise him up at the last day.
-John 6:40 KJV
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (boasting in self righteousness). And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you (he never says "and then forgot you") : depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
-[(All have sinned) He that
-believeth on him is not
-condemned: but he that
-believeth not is condemned
-already, because he hath
-not believed in the name of
-the only begotten Son of God.
-John 3:18 KJV]
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock Matthew 7:21‭-‬24 KJV


And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matthew 16:18 KJV


And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:4 KJV


And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.

Psalms 78:35 KJV


Except the Lord build the house, they labour in vain that build it... Psalms 127:1 KJV

We, believers, are Bethel.


Matthew 7:26-27,

The Rocky Foundation is Jesus. Jesus saves, works don't.


1 John 1:6 cf. 1 John 2:4, John 1:7,

1:6-7 keyword=fellowship


Proverbs 28:13

This is about fellowship, not salvation.



I agree, but I don't flip flop about it. Belief is for salvation. Surrender is for discipleship.

Sent from my 5054N using Tapatalk

As for Ephesians 2:8-9:

Well, in Ephesians 2:8-9, Paul is saying how we are ultimately saved. Paul is also talking about initial salvation (Justification) here and not continued salvation (Sanctification) in the Lord (Ephesians 2:11-13). Jesus saves us both in Justification and in Sanctification. We are saved both by having a belief on Jesus (faith) and by allowing Jesus (who lives within us) to do the good work within our hearts and lives. For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). For it is God that works in you to do of His will and good pleasure (Philippians 2:13). For we also bear the fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23).

In Ephesians 2:8, Paul is saying salvation is like a gift.
Gifts are received. So this is talking about initial salvation. For one has to receive a gift in order to have it.
We are ultimately saved by God's grace THRU the vehicle of faith.
Faith requires a belief.
True faith always results in right actions proving that such a faith is true.
Hence, why James says, "You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

But in verse 9, Paul is saying that we are not saved by works alone in and of itself. For the Pharisees falsely believed in Works Alone Salvationism or Law alone as a means of salvation and pretty much left out God and as their Savior. Which means there was no mercy or grace in their belief. So there was no forgiveness for others. This is confirmed by Jesus when he said,

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, justice, mercy, and faith: these ought you to have done, and not to leave the other undone." (Matthew 23:23).​

However, Paul does not want us to neglect the fact that we still have to do works, though. For in verse 10, Paul says,

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them."
(Ephesians 2:10).​

See, Paul says here that we are created in Christ Jesus for good works. In fact, God has foreordained that we SHOULD walk in these good works. The word "Should" here does not suggest that this is an option for us.

Paul is simply laying it out how we are ultimately saved. It is by God's grace THRU faith.
For if a believer sins, how do they keep their heart right with God? Do they go out and do a bunch more works to offset the sin? No. One cannot get clean in that way. One gets forgiven (cleaned) by calling out to Jesus to have mercy on them (1 John 1:9). In fact, we see this in the Parable of the Tax Collector (Luke 18:9-14). The Pharisee was merely focused on works alone and thought he was better than the Tax Collector because of his deeds. But the Tax Collector called out to God to have mercy on him and was more justified in God's sight because He sought out the Lord's grace in order to be forgiven. The Tax Collector was humble before God whereas the Pharisee was boastful in his works alone.

See, man made works alone salvationism is wrong, but God directed works is just evidence that Jesus lives within you (Who is the source of a person's life or salvation - See 1 John 5:12). This is why Paul says that we are to prove whether or not Jesus Christ is in us or not (2 Corinthians 13:5). One can only prove if they have Christ in them by their works (i.e. Christ's works). This is the same line of reasoning that John talks about in his first epistle (Compare 1 John 1:6 with 1 John 2:4 and then read 1 John 2:3-6 as a whole).

But does Ephesians 2:8-9 justify Antinomianism or a sin and still be saved doctrine? No.

Paul is confident that the Ephesian believers are not like that. For Paul says,

"Among whom also we all had our behavior in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Ephesians 2:3).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I know this is a late response. I had it typed up in notepad and got distracted with other things. But...



How about you read it again.

"Nineveh changed their mind (repented) at the preaching of Jonas" - Yeshua

And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. So the people of Nineveh believed God... Jonah 3:4‭-‬5 KJV

You have it all wrong still, preaching the fruit of salvation as the root of salvation. Nineveh repented first thing when Jonah preached. Once he told them they would be overthrown they "believed God".

Nineveh's repentance - Jonah 3:5

Nineveh turns from sin - Jonah 3:10

God repents - Jonah 3:10

And God saw their WORKS, that they turned from their evil way;* and GOD REPENTED of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. Jonah 3:10 KJV


*Rom 4:4-4, Eph 2:8-9



James 2:17,

A dead dog is still a dog. Dead faith is still faith. It's a fruitless saving faith.


Knowing death speaks of separation and not cession of existence, let us look at James 2:26, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." If I were to die physically, my body would drop to the ground but my spirit would go to be with the Lord. "Absen from the body, present with the Lord (II Corinthians 5:8)." Would I still be alive? Yes, I have eternal life. But my body would not have any vital signs and would not display any life at all, yet I would be present with the Lord and very much alive.

In the same way, James says, "faith without works is dead." What does he mean? Works are to faith what the body is to the spirit. The body displays the life of the spirit. Work displays faith. The only way I can display that I am alive is with my body (movement, pulse, etc.). The only way that I can display that I have faith is by my works.

http://www.biblelineministries.org/articles/basearch.php3?action=full&mainkey=FAITH+WITHOUT+WORKS


Titus 1:16,

The context right before it says "unbelieving". You must read. All unbelievers are condemned.

Hebrews 12:14,


'Verse 14: "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord."

This injunction has been so often misunderstood and misapplied that many believers who have endeavored to live holy lives have been tormented and discouraged, thus becoming useless as good stewards, good soldiers in God's great army.

The Greek word here translated "follow" means "to pursue, to follow after." Many believers have been taught from the pulpit that if they do not live above sin - (meaning "sinless perfection") - they cannot hope to see God...

It is not through perfect peace and perfect holiness that we see the Lord: it is by grace through faith! When we have been saved by God's grace, we are to pursue peace and holiness; but we see Jesus because we are covered by the blood and saved by His marvelous grace...

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord." We note here our attitude concerning our fellowman, and also our disposition toward God the Father who loved us, and Jesus the Son who saved us.'

SOURCE: The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews; pg. 547-548; 1965; by Dr. Oliver B. Greene

Hebrews 12:14 is speaking about our influence upon other people. If we don't pursue peace with others, and live holy lives, then lost sinners WON'T see the Lord in us. You are the only Jesus someone knows. That person may go to Hell if they don't see the Lord in you. As believers, we are supposed to be the light of the world (Matthew 5:14).

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False Doctrines/Lordship Salvation/macarthur-heb1214.htm


Matthew 5:16 says, "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."


Matthew 25:30,

https://faithalone.org/journal/1992b/Huber.htm


Matthew 7:21 cf. 1 Thessalonians 4:3,

This is a terrible cross reference and here is why. 1 Thessalonians 4:3 is talking about the will of God for believers. He's talking to those already saved.


Furthermore then we beseech you, BRETHREN, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: 1 Thessalonians 4:1‭-‬3 KJV


Now here is the will of God that Matthew 7 speaks of.


Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my
-Father which is in heaven.
-And this is the will of him
-that sent me, that every one
-which seeth the Son, and
-believeth on him, may have
-everlasting life: and I will
-raise him up at the last day.
-John 6:40 KJV
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (boasting in self righteousness). And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you (he never says "and then forgot you") : depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
-[(All have sinned) He that
-believeth on him is not
-condemned: but he that
-believeth not is condemned
-already, because he hath
-not believed in the name of
-the only begotten Son of God.
-John 3:18 KJV]
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock Matthew 7:21‭-‬24 KJV


And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matthew 16:18 KJV


And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:4 KJV


And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.

Psalms 78:35 KJV


Except the Lord build the house, they labour in vain that build it... Psalms 127:1 KJV

We, believers, are Bethel.


Matthew 7:26-27,

The Rocky Foundation is Jesus. Jesus saves, works don't.


1 John 1:6 cf. 1 John 2:4, John 1:7,

1:6-7 keyword=fellowship


Proverbs 28:13

This is about fellowship, not salvation.



I agree, but I don't flip flop about it. Belief is for salvation. Surrender is for discipleship.

Sent from my 5054N using Tapatalk

As for Romans 4:

Well, OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) Proponents believe Romans 4 is talking about all works in general or all types or forms of works. However, it is actually in reference to the works of the Law of Moses (Which is evident by the mention of circumcision in the previous chapter). Anyways, lets read the first 5 verses in Romans 4 in context to the Law of Moses. This is also in reference to Works Alone Salvationism, as well (See my next post).

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works [of the Law of Moses], he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh [by the Law of Moses] is the reward not reckoned of grace [as a gift], but of debt [in being in debted to the Law of Moses]. But to him that worketh not [by the Law of Moses], but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. " (Romans 4:1-5).

Also, we know that Abraham was justified by the fact that he also performed , too.

For Romans 4:21-22 says,
"And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness."

Certain OSAS Proponents also believe James 2 is in reference to external works that justify one before man and not God. But in reality James 2 is talking about God directed works that are a requirement for one's faith to be true. For faith without works is dead. Other OSAS Proponents completey disregard what James says because they believe that his writings were written to Hebrews and not Gentile Christians. But Scripture says there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ.

OSAS Proponents also believe Galatians 3 is in reference to all law, as well. But Galatians 3 uses the words, "works of the Law" to let us know it is referring to the Law of Moses. For Galatians 3:24 says, "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." So again, this is not in reference to all law but to the Law of Moses.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I know this is a late response. I had it typed up in notepad and got distracted with other things. But...



How about you read it again.

"Nineveh changed their mind (repented) at the preaching of Jonas" - Yeshua

And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. So the people of Nineveh believed God... Jonah 3:4‭-‬5 KJV

You have it all wrong still, preaching the fruit of salvation as the root of salvation. Nineveh repented first thing when Jonah preached. Once he told them they would be overthrown they "believed God".

Nineveh's repentance - Jonah 3:5

Nineveh turns from sin - Jonah 3:10

God repents - Jonah 3:10

And God saw their WORKS, that they turned from their evil way;* and GOD REPENTED of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. Jonah 3:10 KJV


*Rom 4:4-4, Eph 2:8-9



James 2:17,

A dead dog is still a dog. Dead faith is still faith. It's a fruitless saving faith.


Knowing death speaks of separation and not cession of existence, let us look at James 2:26, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." If I were to die physically, my body would drop to the ground but my spirit would go to be with the Lord. "Absen from the body, present with the Lord (II Corinthians 5:8)." Would I still be alive? Yes, I have eternal life. But my body would not have any vital signs and would not display any life at all, yet I would be present with the Lord and very much alive.

In the same way, James says, "faith without works is dead." What does he mean? Works are to faith what the body is to the spirit. The body displays the life of the spirit. Work displays faith. The only way I can display that I am alive is with my body (movement, pulse, etc.). The only way that I can display that I have faith is by my works.

http://www.biblelineministries.org/articles/basearch.php3?action=full&mainkey=FAITH+WITHOUT+WORKS


Titus 1:16,

The context right before it says "unbelieving". You must read. All unbelievers are condemned.

Hebrews 12:14,


'Verse 14: "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord."

This injunction has been so often misunderstood and misapplied that many believers who have endeavored to live holy lives have been tormented and discouraged, thus becoming useless as good stewards, good soldiers in God's great army.

The Greek word here translated "follow" means "to pursue, to follow after." Many believers have been taught from the pulpit that if they do not live above sin - (meaning "sinless perfection") - they cannot hope to see God...

It is not through perfect peace and perfect holiness that we see the Lord: it is by grace through faith! When we have been saved by God's grace, we are to pursue peace and holiness; but we see Jesus because we are covered by the blood and saved by His marvelous grace...

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord." We note here our attitude concerning our fellowman, and also our disposition toward God the Father who loved us, and Jesus the Son who saved us.'

SOURCE: The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews; pg. 547-548; 1965; by Dr. Oliver B. Greene

Hebrews 12:14 is speaking about our influence upon other people. If we don't pursue peace with others, and live holy lives, then lost sinners WON'T see the Lord in us. You are the only Jesus someone knows. That person may go to Hell if they don't see the Lord in you. As believers, we are supposed to be the light of the world (Matthew 5:14).

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False Doctrines/Lordship Salvation/macarthur-heb1214.htm


Matthew 5:16 says, "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."


Matthew 25:30,

https://faithalone.org/journal/1992b/Huber.htm


Matthew 7:21 cf. 1 Thessalonians 4:3,

This is a terrible cross reference and here is why. 1 Thessalonians 4:3 is talking about the will of God for believers. He's talking to those already saved.


Furthermore then we beseech you, BRETHREN, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: 1 Thessalonians 4:1‭-‬3 KJV


Now here is the will of God that Matthew 7 speaks of.


Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my
-Father which is in heaven.
-And this is the will of him
-that sent me, that every one
-which seeth the Son, and
-believeth on him, may have
-everlasting life: and I will
-raise him up at the last day.
-John 6:40 KJV
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (boasting in self righteousness). And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you (he never says "and then forgot you") : depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
-[(All have sinned) He that
-believeth on him is not
-condemned: but he that
-believeth not is condemned
-already, because he hath
-not believed in the name of
-the only begotten Son of God.
-John 3:18 KJV]
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock Matthew 7:21‭-‬24 KJV


And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matthew 16:18 KJV


And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:4 KJV


And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.

Psalms 78:35 KJV


Except the Lord build the house, they labour in vain that build it... Psalms 127:1 KJV

We, believers, are Bethel.


Matthew 7:26-27,

The Rocky Foundation is Jesus. Jesus saves, works don't.


1 John 1:6 cf. 1 John 2:4, John 1:7,

1:6-7 keyword=fellowship


Proverbs 28:13

This is about fellowship, not salvation.



I agree, but I don't flip flop about it. Belief is for salvation. Surrender is for discipleship.

Sent from my 5054N using Tapatalk

Continuing with Romans 4:

We also have to understand that Paul was also addressing the heresy of "Works Alone Salvationism." This is what the Pharisees believed. They had sought the Scriptures as a means of eternal life but it was those very Scriptures that testified of Jesus their Savior. Jesus even criticized a Pharisee for not calling out to God to have mercy on his sins like the Tax Collector was willing to do. For can you recall anywhere whereby the Pharisee had looked for the forgiveness of God? That was the problem with their religion. It was all Law with no Savior, and no grace, and no forgiveness.

In other words, when you read Romans 4, try re-reading the word "alone" (or the words "the Law of Moses alone") after the word "works."

For in the bulk of Romans 7, Paul talks from his experience as a Pharisee who thought salvation was all about keeping the Law (with no grace or no salvation in the Lord). That is why Paul struggled with keeping the Law because the Lord was not living in his heart and life when he was a Pharisee. Paul needed to acccept Jesus whereby the good Lord could transform his heart and do the good work within him. This is why Paul says in Romans 7:14 (Speaking as a Pharisee) that he was sold under sin and yet in Romans 8 (Speaking as a Christian) he said he is free from sin. Not free in the sense that he can sin and still be saved but he is free in the sense that he now has Jesus to overcome his sins and to cleanse them (thru confessing them).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

First, entering God's Kingdom is based on God's gift. This gift is not rewarded or given to just anyone.

And no one on this thread has said otherwise.

You believe that the gift (Jesus Christ) is given to anyone who believes in Jesus as their Savior and it does not matter how they live. This is what I meant by that the gift is not just given to anyone because a belief alone does not really determine if someone is truly different. For God cannot give His gift to a person who is going to remained unchanged and in their sin because:

(a) It goes against Scripture.
(b) It goes against Morality.
(c) It goes against what we know about how the Real World operates (Which is important to understand because Jesus used parables or real world examples to illustrate spiritual truth).

Well, there you go again. No one is rewarded with the gift of eternal life. But it seems your view is in disagreement with Scripture.

Then what sets you apart from the unbeliever?

Was it not your good behavior by believing that God decided to show favor to you with allowing you to enjoy the joys of God's good Kingdom? Is not the joy of simply being in God's Kingdom with Jesus a reward in and of itself?

Those who actually do read my posts know better. No one is rewarded with salvation. It cannot earned, which is what a reward is. Something earned.

So, you are saying that believing in Jesus is not right behavior whereby God then shows favor towards them?

I can't imaging how you think this verse supports anything in your view.

Just keep reading. For it says,

“And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
‭(Matthew 25:25-30).

It's a verse about being rewarded for obedience. And not for entering the kingdom, but having that specific reward IN the kingdom.

It is a huge stretch to believe that being cast into outer darkness that involves weeping and gnashing of teeth would be a place in God's Kingdom.

The gift is given to those who believe. Period. Lifestyle has no bearing on receiving the gift, as it seems you've wrongly assumed.

While initial salvation can be just a belief that Jesus is one's Savior, it then quickly involves loyalty to the Savior, too; Or do you think the disciples that stopped following Jesus were saved? (See John 6:66).

Those who want to be partakers with Christ (partaker - Heb 3:14), and reign with Him (2 Tim 2:12) must earn it.

As for Hebrews 3:14:

The verses right before it refute this type of thinking because it says to us believers that we can depart from the living God from having an evil heart of unbelief. This hardening of the heart is thru the deceitfulness of sin. Here is the passage,

“Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.”
(Hebrews 3:12-13).
‭‭
As for 2 Timothy 2:12:

I do not see how this verse helps you. It actually refutes OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved).

It says if we deny Him (Jesus), He will deny us. So let me get this straight, a believer is going to be with Jesus and His Kingdom and Jesus is going to be like denying Him there? That is absolutely silly.

Why would anyone reject the FACT that Christ died for our sins (1 Cor 15:3),

Yet, there are people that do. Even people who were once faithful believers in Christ at one time in their life. However, Hebrews 6 talks about if one were to deny Jesus or reject Him after having believed and in having the Spirit, they cannot come back to the faith.

and destroyed the work (sin) of the devil (1 Jn 3:8)?

While Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil with his death, burial, resurrection, and ascension, Jesus was also manifested to destroy the works of the devil within a believer's life, too. For 1 John 3:8 says he that sins is of the devil and 1 John 3:7 says he that does righteousness is righteous. So doing good vs. doing evil is in view here.

Your unhealthy preoccupation with sin reveals a lot of problems with your theology.

Not sure what Bible you have been reading, but a good majority of the New Testament warns against sin.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/sin-bible-verses/
https://www.openbible.info/topics/sin

After believing in Christ and receiving the gift of eternal life, we are commanded to live for Christ, be obedient and faithful to Him. Those that do, will be rewarded. Those that don't, will lose reward (1 Cor 3:15) but still be saved.

No. This is not true. Otherwise God would have to agree with a believer's false thinking on salvation that they can sin and still be saved. But God cannot agree with such thinking because He is holy, just, and good. For the Bible says we are to have the mind of Christ. Is one having the mind of Christ if they think they can sin and still be saved? Surely not.

Anyways, as for 1 Corinthians 3: First, you have to realize that there is NO individual present who does not have any works who is spared. Everyone in 1 Corinthians 3 has some kind of works to burn. Second, the work that these believers have done (that they thought was a work for God) that was carnal was not a "sin that leads unto death" (i.e. "I am of Paul, or "I am of Apollos") but it was a "sin that does not lead unto death" (See 1 John 5:16-18 and compare with 1 John 1:9, 1 Peter 3:21 and Revelation 21:8, Luke 13:3, cf. Acts 8:22). However, later in the chapter, it does warn us against committing grevious sin: For in 1 Corinthians 3:17, it warns us against being destroyed if we defile God's temple (i.e. our body).

"If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
(1 Corinthians 3:17).

In fact, you just said that salvation is nothing you do, and tha tyou believe all men are sinners.

So does the Bible

Saying it is one thing and proving your case with Scripture (while not ignoring the context and other cross references in Scripture) is quite another.

Have you ever read about the 144,000 who were found without fault before the throne of God?

What do they have to do with this discussion?

It has everything to do with this discussion. Do you not believe 1 John 1:8 teaches that believers are always in sin? How is that not contradictory to the 144,000 who were found without fault before the throne of God?

Your glaring problem is the failure to understand God's grace. It appears there is none in your theology.

I understand God's grace just fine. However, God's grace does not allow for a believer to have a license to sin (as you suggest). God is good and He is not evil. He can no more condone a believer to do evil then for rain not to be wet.


...

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I understand God's grace just fine. However, God's grace does not allow for a believer to have a license to sin (as you suggest). God is good and He is not evil. He can no more condone a believer to do evil then for rain not to be wet.

That's absolutely true according to His Word, Plan, Purpose of Salvation in Christ Jesus.
However,
a query : even in obedient local assemblies (which are rare enough)
is ANYONE supposed to separate the ( "look-alike-tares") from the real wheat ?
Or are we supposed to leave it alone until later when God handles all ?
Those not truly saved will then be tossed in the fire, even if they "knew" they were saved.
Those truly saved will be still saved, even if they didn't know it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That's absolutely true according to His Word, Plan, Purpose of Salvation in Christ Jesus.
However,
a query : even in obedient local assemblies (which are rare enough)
is ANYONE supposed to separate the ( "look-alike-tares") from the real wheat ?
Or are we supposed to leave it alone until later when God handles all ?
Those not truly saved will then be tossed in the fire, even if they "knew" they were saved.
Those truly saved will be still saved, even if they didn't know it.

That is why I strive to attack the false doctrine and not the person.

Uprooting the tares would be trying to expose them publicly or to stop them physically in some way.

The parable does not mean we cannot reprove the unfruitful works of darkness by attacking the belief.


...

 

[FreeGrace2]

You believe that the gift (Jesus Christ) is given to anyone who believes in Jesus as their Savior and it does not matter how they live.

Because that is EXACTLY what the Bible SAYS. But people are free to reject what the Bible teaches, obviously.

This is what I meant by that the gift is not just given to anyone because a belief alone does not really determine if someone is truly different.

God is NOT impressed with your lack of grace views and standards. Thankfully.

For God cannot give His gift to a person who is going to remained unchanged and in their sin

Apparently your god is NOT a god of grace, obviously.

because:

(a) It goes against Scripture.
(b) It goes against Morality.
(c) It goes against what we know about how the Real World operates (Which is important to understand because Jesus used parables or real world examples to illustrate spiritual truth).

Your views do not understand the truth.

I said this:
"No one is rewarded with the gift of eternal life. But it seems your view is in disagreement with Scripture."

Then what sets you apart from the unbeliever?

The FACT that as a believer, I HAVE God's gift of eternal life, the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit, have been born again, also described as been regenerated and am a new creature. Is that enough to set me apart from any unbeliever, or do you require much more?

Was it not your good behavior by believing that God decided to show favor to you with allowing you to enjoy the joys of God's good Kingdom?

The act of believing isn't rewarded, as your comment insinuates. The act of believing is non-meritorious. Until that is understood, there is no way you'll ever advance in your understanding of Scripture.

Is not the joy of simply being in God's Kingdom with Jesus a reward in and of itself?

Absolutely NOT. The Bible addresses specific rewards. Why should anyone ignore them?

Furthermore, entering the kingdom is NEVER described as a reward.

So, you are saying that believing in Jesus is not right behavior whereby God then shows favor towards them?

As I have always said, the act of believing isn't rewarded. Period.

It is a huge stretch to believe that being cast into outer darkness that involves weeping and gnashing of teeth would be a place in God's Kingdom.

Those who have no clue or understanding about metaphors would say that.

While initial salvation can be just a belief that Jesus is one's Savior, it then quickly involves loyalty to the Savior, too; Or do you think the disciples that stopped following Jesus were saved? (See John 6:66).

I'll answer with the very words of Jesus in Luke 8:12 - Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Those who believe ARE saved.

As for Hebrews 3:14:

The verses right before it refute this type of thinking because it says to us believers that we can depart from the living God from having an evil heart of unbelief.

Again, our actions don't cancel the promises of God.

John 5:24 quotes Jesus saying that those who believe HAVE eternal life, will NOT come into condemnation, but HAVE PASSED from death to life.

John 10:28 quotes Jesus saying that those He gives eternal life to WILL NEVER PERISH.

But your views clearly disagree with His promise.

It says if we deny Him (Jesus), He will deny us.

Context. Look at the context. v.12a is about reigning with Christ on the basis of enduring. To "deny" Him in v.12b means to NOT endure.

So, those who endure in the faith, WILL reign with Christ. However,
those who DON'T endure, WILL NOT reign with Christ. They will be DENIED that privilege.

So let me get this straight, a believer is going to be with Jesus and His Kingdom and Jesus is going to be like denying Him there? That is absolutely silly.

What will be denied is the privilege of reigning with Christ. Those who you'd rather be sent to hell for their bad behaviors will be sitting on the sidelines in heaven, NOT reigning with Christ, and NOT enjoying other rewards that ONLY faithful believers will enjoy.

But the graceless view is "burn in hell".

Yet, there are people that do. Even people who were once faithful believers in Christ at one time in their life. However, Hebrews 6 talks about if one were to deny Jesus or reject Him after having believed and in having the Spirit, they cannot come back to the faith.

A total misread of the verse. Read it again. It says will not come back to repentance.

Not sure what Bible you have been reading, but a good majority of the New Testament warns against sin.

This is just nonsense. I've NEVER defended sin. Of course we are not to sin. Please don't be so absurd.

No. This is not true. Otherwise God would have to agree with a believer's false thinking on salvation that they can sin and still be saved.

What is not true is your twisted view of being saved means no sin. You have already admitted that you still sin, so just knock off your unbiblical view.

Jesus came to save sinners. That doesn't make them sinless. That's WHY we have 1 John 1:9. When we sin, we grieve and/or quench the Holy Spirit. That breaks fellowship, and the only way to maintain or regain fellowship is through confession of sin.

But I know these ideas are totally foreign to those who think one can become sinless, and that one can lose salvation. And such people fail to comprehend the difference between fellowship and salvation.

I said this:
"After believing in Christ and receiving the gift of eternal life, we are commanded to live for Christ, be obedient and faithful to Him. Those that do, will be rewarded. Those that don't, will lose reward (1 Cor 3:15) but still be saved."

But God cannot agree with such thinking because He is holy, just, and good.

I just supported my statement with Scripture and you claim that God "cannot agree with such thinking". How crazy is that?! 1 Cor 3:15 IS God's Word. How can God disagree with His own Word? Meditate on that.

For the Bible says we are to have the mind of Christ. Is one having the mind of Christ if they think they can sin and still be saved? Surely not.

You still have NOT proved your claim that one cannot be saved and still sin. I've proven the opposite.

Saying it is one thing and proving your case with Scripture (while not ignoring the context and other cross references in Scripture) is quite another.

Ditto for your own views. However, I HAVE supported my views from Scripture, even though you either fail to understand them, or have just rejected them.

It has everything to do with this discussion. Do you not believe 1 John 1:8 teaches that believers are always in sin?

Believers are always sinners. That doesn't change until we enter eternity. We have a sin nature, which it seems you either ignore or reject. And Paul was very clear about the struggle between our sin nature with our new nature, in Rom 5 and 6 and Gal 5:16-17.

How is that not contradictory to the 144,000 who were found without fault before the throne of God?

Why is it so difficult to accept that those who regularly confess their sins can be said to be "without fault". It's those who FAIL to confess their sins who are AT fault.

I understand God's grace just fine.

Your posts prove otherwise.

However, God's grace does not allow for a believer to have a license to sin (as you suggest).

This again proves your failure to understand God's grace. If it weren't for God's grace, no one COULD go to heaven.

No one's lifestyle or behavior is good enough for God's standard. Which is WHY we need God's grace. Which you still don't understand.

God is good and He is not evil. He can no more condone a believer to do evil then for rain not to be wet....

Who ever said He condones sin? He doesn't. He judges sin. In fact, He judged all the sins of humanity on the cross. Did you miss that doctrine?

And Heb 12:6 is quite clear about how God deals with sin among His children. But there are NO verses that teach loss of salvation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

While initial salvation can be just a belief that Jesus is one's Savior, it then quickly involves loyalty to the Savior, too; Or do you think the disciples that stopped following Jesus were saved? (See John 6:66).

I'll answer with the very words of Jesus in Luke 8:12 - Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

So you believe that the 70 disciples (not the 12) were unsaved unbelievers? Are you saying that Jesus chooses unbelievers to be his special disciples in spreading the good news and to have God's power whereby the devils would be subject unto them? That the disciples went around telling others about Jesus so as to be saved and yet they did not believe themselves and were unsaved? So the Lord Jesus chooses evil unsaved unbelievers (having God's power) so as to be His special elect group of men to spread the good news?

Do you not know that Jesus said to the 70 that their names were written in heaven?

"And the seventy returned again with joy, saying,
"Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name." (Luke 10:17).

[Jesus said unto them,]:

"Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven."
(Luke 10:20).​

Also, if you are to say that the Parable of the Sower is talking about salvation, then you have to conclude that the 2nd and 3rd individuals or seeds were temporarily saved because they received the Word with joy (But they later fell away due to specific reasons). Is not the receiving of the Word with joy believing the gospel by God's Word? What thing within the Parable determines if one is saved?

Again, our actions don't cancel the promises of God.

John 5:24 quotes Jesus saying that those who believe HAVE eternal life, will NOT come into condemnation, but HAVE PASSED from death to life.

Now, I want you to picture yourself sitting next to Jesus and imagine yourself listening to HIm as He is talking to the crowd,

Then you hear Jesus say in John 5:24,

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:24).

Is not hearing Jesus's words include Him also saying?

"36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."
(Matthew 12:36-37).

For in the Bible do we see the word "hear" being used in reference to obedience?

In fact, yes we do. For Jesus says,

"And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (Luke 16:31).​

John 10:28 quotes Jesus saying that those He gives eternal life to WILL NEVER PERISH.

Again, this is said in context or reference to only the sheep that FOLLOW Jesus.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" (John 10:27).​

Context. Look at the context. v.12a is about reigning with Christ on the basis of enduring. To "deny" Him in v.12b means to NOT endure.

So, those who endure in the faith, WILL reign with Christ. However,
those who DON'T endure, WILL NOT reign with Christ. They will be DENIED that privilege.

No. It says,

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:" (2 Timothy 2:12).​

In fact, this is confirmed by the words of Jesus Himself. For He says,

"But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 10:33).​

But the graceless view is "burn in hell".

Actually, I believe the Scriptures teach that hell (torments) is more like a really bad prison and it is not a place whereby the wicked are burned in any actual flames. I also believe the Scriptures teach that the Lake of Fire is a place whereby the wicked will be destroyed or erased from existence, too.

As for hell being a bad prison (and not a torture chamber of flames):

Well, in Luke 16:19-31: What folks fail to understand is that when the Rich-man went to Torments (Hell or Hades), he was not actually being burned by any flames. In Luke 16:24, the Rich-man was referring to the fact about how he was tormented in the flame that was in front of him that was in the gulf that was between him and Abraham (Sort of like if I said I am happy in this car --- yet the car is in front of me). (Similar language like this can be found with the words "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman," - Genesis 2:23). Adam was not referring to his own flesh, with the word "this", but he was referring to Eve who was in front of him. In other words, it was the heat of the flame in front of him that made him uncomfortable or tormented. For although I am open to understanding otherwise according to Scripture, I currently do not believe he was in extreme physical pain or torture. For if the Rich-man was engulfed by entire flames --- he wouldn't be asking for a little water to cool his tongue, he would be asking for a giant barrel of water or lots of buckets of water to lower the flame or to put it out. Also, if a person was being engulfed by flames today in the real world, how likely are they to carry on a conversation with you?

As for the wicked being annihiated in the Lake of Fire:

Jesus said, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28). The word "hell" here is translated as "geenna", which is another name for what we call the "Lake of Fire."

For the punishment has eternal consequences where the soul and spirit body are eventually destroyed or put to ruin. For it is everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46) --- Not everlasting punishing.

Now, many who believe in Eternal Conscious Torment will quote: Revelation 14:11 at this point. However, when they quote this verse, they are not quoting it in light of the rest of Scripture, though. Okay, so lets take a look at the verse. Revelation 14:11 says,

"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:11).

What is this smoke of torment that goes up forever and ever? Well, the Bible tells us that it is a metaphorical phrase because Isaiah 34:10 says that the smoke of Edom went up forever and ever. Yet, is Edom (the place) burning today? No. So we then realize that this phrase is speaking metaphorically.

A total misread of the verse. Read it again. It says will not come back to repentance.

No. Hebrews 6:4-6 says,

4 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."​

It says it is impossible for those who were once enlightened (partakers of the Holy Ghost) to fall away and to then renew them again unto repentance. Why? Because they would be crucifying the Son of God afresh and putting him to an open shame.

This is just nonsense. I've NEVER defended sin. Of course we are not to sin. Please don't be so absurd.

You are defending sin every time you admit that a believer can abide in unrepentant sin (like lying or lusting after a woman) and yet they can still be saved. You are defending sin every time you fail to explain the morality or goodness of God behind your belief and how it lines up with the real world.

What is not true is your twisted view of being saved means no sin. You have already admitted that you still sin, so just knock off your unbiblical view.

No. I never said I continually abide in unrepentant sin on a daily basis. Do I believe I will sin again? The future is not set into stone; And with God nothing is impossible. But you have already written in stone that you will sin again (as if it is a guarantee). Hence, why you defend that a believer is able to live immorally or in sin in your belief and still be saved.

Jesus came to save sinners. That doesn't make them sinless. That's WHY we have 1 John 1:9. When we sin, we grieve and/or quench the Holy Spirit. That breaks fellowship, and the only way to maintain or regain fellowship is through confession of sin.

No. 1 John 1:9 is not about paying lip service alone (with no real change in one's behavior) (See 1 John 1:7, and 1 John 2:3-6). For how does paying lip service alone work for a husband who has cheated on his wife? How does paying lip alone work with an employee whose performance could get him fired at his job? Why do you think it is different with God? Is God immoral so as to allow you to continue to do evil? Surely not.

But I know these ideas are totally foreign to those who think one can become sinless, and that one can lose salvation. And such people fail to comprehend the difference between fellowship and salvation.

But you have bought into the lie from other preachers that the Scriptures teach that fellowship is separate from salvation. There is no verse or passages that teach such a thing. You think 1 John 1 alludes to this, but there is no evidence as such. Abiding in Christ (fellowship) means you have life or salvation (See 1 John 5:12). The two cannot be separate. It doesn't work like that.

I said this:
"After believing in Christ and receiving the gift of eternal life, we are commanded to live for Christ, be obedient and faithful to Him. Those that do, will be rewarded. Those that don't, will lose reward (1 Cor 3:15) but still be saved."

But 99.9% of those in Eternal Security camp will not be obedient because there is no real motivation to do so. There is no actual fear of God before their eyes. They can sin and still be saved (i.e. they can have their cake and eat it, too). They can serve both God and the devil (sin). For Scriptures says he that sins is of the devil (1 John 3:8).

I just supported my statement with Scripture and you claim that God "cannot agree with such thinking". How crazy is that?! 1 Cor 3:15 IS God's Word. How can God disagree with His own Word? Meditate on that.

I am not in disagreement with 1 Corinthians 3:15. It says,

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire" (1 Corinthians 3:15).

Again, the work that this is referencing is the carnal thinking of the Corinthians that said, "I am of Paul" or "I am of Apollos." In other words, their boasting in each other is what is in view or context of the type of work that will be burned here. Nowhere does 1 Corinthians 3:15 teach that this is in reference to murder, sexual sin, hate, theft, idolatry, lying, and drunkeness, etc.

Again, verse 17 says,

"If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
(1 Corinthians 3:17).

Believers are always sinners. That doesn't change until we enter eternity. We have a sin nature, which it seems you either ignore or reject. And Paul was very clear about the struggle between our sin nature with our new nature, in Rom 5 and 6

I do not see any verse in Romans 5, Romans 6, and Romans 7 whereby Paul says that Christians will struggle with sin the rest of their lives forever. Yes, Christians can struggle with sin, but when they enter thru the Sanctification process, they overcome their sin (Which for some takes time).

But again, Revelation 14:3-5 says that the 144,000 are found without fault before the throne of God. You cannot be without fault and yet sin.

and Gal 5:16-17.

Read verse 16 again. Paul is giving us instructions so as not to fulfill the lust of the flesh. Paul's instruction or solution so as not to walk after the flesh is to walk after the Spirit. Please read it again.

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh" (Galatians 5:16).

Verse 17 is talking about what a person's state is like when they are not walking after the Spirit.

Who ever said He condones sin? He doesn't. He judges sin. In fact, He judged all the sins of humanity on the cross. Did you miss that doctrine?

So you are saying that the sacrifice is an allowance for believers to do evil today? How do you not see that as God condoning sin today? Does doing justice or good at one point in time mean that we can ignore justice today? Surely not. God is good and just all the time and not just at point in history. Besides, to use the cross in such a manner is to insult what He did for us. God would never allow His sacrifice to be used for the purposes of evil (i.e. to allow people to think they can sin or do evil with the thinking they are in God's good graces).

And Heb 12:6 is quite clear about how God deals with sin among His children. But there are NO verses that teach loss of salvation.

But what determines if one is a bastard who is not chastised?
What is the purpose of chastisement?
Is it not to correct the wrong behavior?
For why do you think a father disciplines (chastises) his son?
Is it to just inflict pain upon him for no good reason?
Or do you think maybe it is to correct the son's wrong behavior?


...

 

[FreeGrace2]

So you believe that the 70 disciples (not the 12) were unsaved unbelievers?

Of course not.

Are you saying that Jesus chooses unbelievers to be his special disciples in spreading the good news and to have God's power whereby the devils would be subject unto them?

No, I am not.

Why is there such a disconnect between what I post and what seems to be understood?

Also, if you are to say that the Parable of the Sower is talking about salvation, then you have to conclude that the 2nd and 3rd individuals or seeds were temporarily saved because they received the Word with joy (But they later fell away due to specific reasons).

I've NEVER ever thought such a thing. The parable is obviously about fruit production. Soils 2, 3 and 4 were saved forever, in spite of the fact that soils 2 and 3 didn't produce any fruit.

John 5:24,
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:24).

This is just one of many verses that teach eternal security.

Those who hear and believe:
1. HAS eternal life
2. shall NOT come into condemnation
3. HAS passed from death unto life

Is not hearing Jesus's words include Him also saying?

What MUST be heard is the gospel. That is what He means. And what He says that must be believed is John 3:16.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" (John 10:27).​

Another great passage on eternal security. v.27 isn't how one gets saved. It's just what saved people do. Although the Bible clearly demonstrates exceptions.

We know who become "My sheep" by looking at 10:9. Those who enter through Him, which means to believe in Him.

And the very next verse tells us that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. Note that there are no qualifications, as you'd like to believe.​

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:" (2 Timothy 2:12).

This is a verse about eternal reward, not about how to lose salvation.​

You are defending sin every time you admit that a believer can abide in unrepentant sin (like lying or lusting after a woman) and yet they can still be saved.

It is only a warped view that would think that sin has NO BEARING on staying saved and is a defense of sin.

You are defending sin every time you fail to explain the morality or goodness of God behind your belief and how it lines up with the real world.

God is perfectly good and perfectly moral. And He judges sin. Believers who sin and don't confess it will be disciplined, which can include intense suffering up to physical death and loss of eternal reward.

Those who never believed will spend eternity in the lake of fire for not having eternal life.

Do I believe I will sin again? The future is not set into stone; And with God nothing is impossible.

The Bible very clearly teaches that no one can or will achieve sinless perfection. We've been through the verses, but everyone is free to accept or reject the truth.

But you have already written in stone that you will sin again (as if it is a guarantee).

My guarantee also includes yourself.

Hence, why you defend that a believer is able to live immorally or in sin in your belief and still be saved.

More warped misunderstanding. My view comes from the reality of Scripture and the fact that we are sinners with a sin nature.

And my belief that ALL believers are STILL sinners and WILL sin isn't in any way a defense of sin. That's just nuts.

No. 1 John 1:9 is not about paying lip service alone (with no real change in one's behavior) (See 1 John 1:7, and 1 John 2:3-6).

Of course it's not a lip service. What a ridiculous idea.

But you have bought into the lie from other preachers that the Scriptures teach that fellowship is separate from salvation.

The lie is that there is no difference. But I've shown from a "real world" example of the parable of the prodigal son the difference, which it seems you are unable to accept.

I do not see any verse in Romans 5, Romans 6, and Romans 7 whereby Paul says that Christians will struggle with sin the rest of their lives forever.

Of course you don't. One must open their eyes in order to see.

But again, Revelation 14:3-5 says that the 144,000 are found without fault before the throne of God. You cannot be without fault and yet sin.

I've already explained this, but again, it seems you are unable to accept the truth.

Believers who don't confess their sins are "at fault". Those who regularly confess their sins are without fault. They're doing what they are supposed to be doing.

Read verse 16 again. Paul is giving us instructions so as not to fulfill the lust of the flesh. Paul's instruction or solution so as not to walk after the flesh is to walk after the Spirit. Please read it again.

The error is to think that any human can cease from sin altogether.

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh" (Galatians 5:16).

And when believers grieve (Eph 4:30) or quench (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit, they are NOT walking by means of the Spirit.

And note exactly what Paul said about grieving the Spirit:
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption

How interesting!! If your views were correct, why didn't Paul just say this:
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, OR you'll break the seal and NEVER see the day of redemption

So you are saying that the sacrifice is an allowance for believers to do evil today?

There is no "allowance" for sin. I have no idea what your point is here.

How do you not see that as God condoning sin today?

Because I understand Scripture.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Dear Free Grace 2:

I wrote my rebuttal with Scripture on your odd view of God's Word and morality and I stand by it. People can read the Scriptures plainly for themselves and make up their own minds. Hopefully they will choose wisely in living for God and His good ways versus trying to justify a doctrine of immorality.

Anyways, I will be praying for you.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

Jason.

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[Amorphous]

For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful are opened against me: they have spoken against me with a lying tongue... let his prayer become sin. Psalms 109:2‭, ‬7 KJV


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[Kaleb5000]

I was one who used to think you could be saved and then become unsaved.

After reading John 6:37-39

How can anyone say that you can be saved and become unsaved. Jesus himself says he will never cast out anyone who comes to him, and he shall lose nothing that has been given to him and he will raise us up in the last day.

So I now believe once saved always saved.

I do wonder what happens to those who were saved and then turn their back. Were they ever saved if they were what will the after life be like for them.


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[sdowney717]

I was one who used to think you could be saved and then become unsaved.

After reading John 6:37-39

How can anyone say that you can be saved and become unsaved. Jesus himself says he will never cast out anyone who comes to him, and he shall lose nothing that has been given to him and he will raise us up in the last day.

So I now believe once saved always saved.

I do wonder what happens to those who were saved and then turn their back. Were they ever saved if they were what will the after life be like for them.


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He does not lose anyone of all the the Father has given Him.
Infact Christ ever lives to make intercession for the saints and that is according to God's will.
And He is omnipotent power, we are kept through faith by the power of God for salvation.
All these people who say you can lose your salvation, I wonder, do they really know Christ and God, or are they just going through the motions.

For those who are saved, Paul wrote this, if you do not feel this inner witness in yourself that you belong to Christ, then maybe you will believe you can lose your salvation.

Romans 8
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Does not Peter also teach that our salvation is eternal?
1 Peter 1New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting to the Elect Pilgrims
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

A Heavenly Inheritance
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation ofyour souls.

 

[sdowney717]

Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

Eternal life is for all believers in Christ, not just a few believers. How many times did Christ, Peter, Paul all teach that all those who believes in and sees the SON has everlasting life, and that all those who believe in the SON have passed from death into life?

38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 5:24
[ Life and Judgment Are Through the Son ] “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Faith (in Christ) comes by hearing and hearing comes by the WORD of GOD.
Literally, faith comes by hearing God speak to you, according to His word. Man does not LIVE by bread alone but by every WORD that proceeds from the mouth of God..

 

[Bible Highlighter]

For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful are opened against me: they have spoken against me with a lying tongue... let his prayer become sin. Psalms 109:2‭, ‬7 KJV


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How do you define in how one is wicked? Is it by a belief alone or by their actions that determines if they are wicked or not?

Also, I am praying for him because he declared openly what his belief was really about in another thread.

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...nce-and-for-all.7920118/page-17#post-69210951


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[Bible Highlighter]

I was one who used to think you could be saved and then become unsaved.

After reading John 6:37-39

How can anyone say that you can be saved and become unsaved. Jesus himself says he will never cast out anyone who comes to him, and he shall lose nothing that has been given to him and he will raise us up in the last day.

So I now believe once saved always saved.

I do wonder what happens to those who were saved and then turn their back. Were they ever saved if they were what will the after life be like for them.

In verse 39, Jesus says, "I should lose nothing"
(John 6:39).

The word "should" is not a guarantee.
That would be like me saying, "I should be over your house --- but I have other things I have to do"

Besides, the Bible also says,
"He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48).

Also, the Bible says,
"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
(Matthew 13:41-42).


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[Kaleb5000]

In verse 39, Jesus says, "I should lose nothing"
(John 6:39).

The word "should" is not a guarantee.
That would be like me saying, "I should be over your house --- but I have other things I have to do"

Besides, the Bible also says,
"He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48).

Also, the Bible says,
"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
(Matthew 13:41-42).


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I disagree. So your telling me Jesus does not speak with absolute certainty.

Jesus says "and this is the will of him who sent me"

That means it's Gods will that Jesus should lose none who sent him. If it is Gods will and Jesus carried out Gods will perfectly then he would lose no one. If it wasn't then Jesus would be a failure. Jesus does not fail.

“Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to accomplish his work.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:34‬ ‭ESV‬‬
http://bible.com/59/jhn.4.34.esv

If God has given us that have accepted him as lord and savior over to him then how can he lose us?

Jesus also says he will NEVER cast out any one who comes to him.

The other verses you referenced have to do with non believers. Not those of us that except Christ as lord and savior.


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[FreeGrace2]

I was one who used to think you could be saved and then become unsaved.

After reading John 6:37-39

How can anyone say that you can be saved and become unsaved. Jesus himself says he will never cast out anyone who comes to him, and he shall lose nothing that has been given to him and he will raise us up in the last day.

Those who believe that salvation can be lost will say that the believer "forfeits" or "gives away" his/her salvation. None of which is taught in Scripture.

Instead, Paul described eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23 and then wrote that the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29. Amazing to see all the gyrations people go through trying to explain AWAY how 11:29 cannot refer to eternal life. Which is nonsense. Of course it does.

So I now believe once saved always saved.

I do wonder what happens to those who were saved and then turn their back. Were they ever saved if they were what will the after life be like for them.

Because of Rom 11:29, if they did believe, they ARE saved.

What the insecurity crowd doesn't understand or even want to understand is that once a child of God, one's behavior does NOT have any impact on their secure place. However, their behavior DOES have a SIGNIFICANT impact on their life on earth, as God's promise of discipline towards His disobedient children can be quite painful. And there is a SIGNIFICANT impact regarding eternity, in that they will lose reward.

"Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully." 2 John 8

 

[Kaleb5000]

Those who believe that salvation can be lost will say that the believer "forfeits" or "gives away" his/her salvation. None of which is taught in Scripture.

Instead, Paul described eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23 and then wrote that the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29. Amazing to see all the gyrations people go through trying to explain AWAY how 11:29 cannot refer to eternal life. Which is nonsense. Of course it does.





Because of Rom 11:29, if they did believe, they ARE saved.

What the insecurity crowd doesn't understand or even want to understand is that once a child of God, one's behavior does NOT have any impact on their secure place. However, their behavior DOES have a SIGNIFICANT impact on their life on earth, as God's promise of discipline towards His disobedient children can be quite painful. And there is a SIGNIFICANT impact regarding eternity, in that they will lose reward.

"Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully." 2 John 8

All that makes sense and I agree. The reason I believe it creates so much division is because some people use this new found freedom as an excuse to keep sinning and say doesn't matter I am saved no matter what.

But that really makes me wonder if they were ever saved and if the spirit resides in them.

Because let's face it of we are truly saved a lot of people will be able to tell based on outwardly changes.

Sure we are gonna mess up and do some stupid things but there is no condemnation for those of us in Christ Jesus, right?






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[Bible Highlighter]

I disagree. So your telling me Jesus does not speak with absolute certainty.

Jesus says "and this is the will of him who sent me"

That means it's Gods will that Jesus should lose none who sent him. If it is Gods will and Jesus carried out Gods will perfectly then he would lose no one. If it wasn't then Jesus would be a failure. Jesus does not fail.

Yes, Jesus will lose nothing (nobody) if a person is faithful according to the terms of the contract of the New Covenant in abiding with Jesus. Nowhere does Jesus say He will lose nothing (nobody) in terms of those who will break that Covenant contract by committing sin. That is something you are adding to the text.

In fact, if you were to read John 17:12, we learn that Jesus did keep (did not lose the majority of His disciples that were given to Him by the Father). However, Jesus said the only one that Jesus lost was Judas (Which is a fulfilment of Scripture).

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in your name: those that you gave me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." (John 17:12).

Now, allow me to rephrase this in modern-terminology:
While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, but the green marble.

And OSAS terminology:
While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, except for the green marble that you never gave me.

Do you see now how OSAS doesn't make any sense?

Also, you have to ignore the word "should" in John chapter 6 to also make your interpretation work, too. You also have to ignore morality or the goodness of God, too. For the moment you say that it is in nothing you do, is the moment you give a person the green light that they can sin and still be saved (if you do not explain yourself properly). For life teaches us if you take away the consequences of something, people are going to do that thing that was once bad.

For example: if there was no penalty anymore for speeding on the high way, guess what is going to happen. More people are going to break that new speed limit law and drive more unsafe on the high ways. For it is only natural for man to do the wrong thing especially if he knows there is no major consequence in doing that wrong thing.

“Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to accomplish his work.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:34‬ ‭ESV‬‬
http://bible.com/59/jhn.4.34.esv

In the KJV it is rendered as the word "meat" which is more accurate. This is important because Jesus says later in John 6 to those disciples who stopped following Him (John 6:66) that if they do not eat of his flesh (meat) they will have no life within them. Meaning if they do not do the will of the Father they have no life (eternal life). This is confirmed by Matthew 7:21. Jesus says not everyone who says unto me Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven but he that does the will of the Father. What is the will of the Father? 1 Thessalonians 4:3 says the will of God (i.e. the will of the Father) is our Sanctification (or holiness - NLT). For Jesus says if anyone who does not do what He says He is like a fool who has built His upon the sand whereby when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).

If God has given us that have accepted him as lord and savior over to him then how can he lose us?

Doesn't Jesus save little babies that die? What changes this after they grow up? Don't you think sin separates a person from the Lord? Did not even John the Baptist have the Holy Ghost since birth? Why did John the Baptist later doubt whether or not Jesus was the One if he was forever sealed by the Spirit?

Also, you said that Jesus will lose none to those who accept Him as their Lord.

I agree.

Jesus says, why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not the things that I say? In other words, in order for Jesus to truly be a person's Lord, they have to do what He says (Otherwise Jesus is not really their Lord). For a servant does what His master wants or desires (otherwise they are Lord to somebody else).

Jesus also says he will NEVER cast out any one who comes to him.

This is talking about somebody who comes to Jesus according to the terms of the contract of the New Covenant. In other words, if somebody thinks coming to Jesus involves jumping off of a bridge, they are believing in the wrong Jesus. If somebody thinks they can sin and still be saved like Eternal Security teaches, then they are coming to Jesus in the wrong way.

The other verses you referenced have to do with non believers. Not those of us that except Christ as lord and savior.

No. John 12:48 does not say that this is talking exclusively to the unbeliever. It simply says HE (in the generic sense). It says, HE (anyone) that does receive my words (meaning Jesus's teachings), the word that Jesus has spoken will judge that person on the last day. For example: If a person (whether they are a believer or unbeliever) decides to commit the sin of looking upon a woman in lust, Jesus will quote to them His words from Matthew 5:28-30 that says if they look upon a woman in lust, their whole body will be cast into hell fire.

Also, I do not how on Earth you can twist Matthew 12:41-42 so as to be in reference to talking to unbelievers when it specifically says it is talking about believers. For the passage says that the Son of man (Jesus) will send forth his angels, and they (His angels) shall gather out of HIS KINGDOM all things that offend, and them (those in HIS KINGDOM) which do iniquity (sin) and they shall be cast into a furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
(Matthew 13:41-42).

In fact, if we were to also look at the phrase: "There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." We notice that it appears elsewhere in Scripture, too; And it is not good. For in Matthew it says that the unprofitable servant will be cast into outer darkness (Matthew 25:30) and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. This wailing and gnashing of teeth is a part of response of them being punished and it is not about them being rewarded and it is not about them being disiplined in Heaven in some way. For outer darkness does not sound like a place in Heaven. Yet, I heard a preacher say that such a place does exist there (Which is absolutely ridiculous).


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