Once Saved Always Saved: Fact or Fiction?

[Albion]

Please provide support for this claim that Scripture distinguishes between belief and faith. I don't believe claims that have no support from Scripture.

I previously cited one: James 2:19

No one thinks that the devils will be saved by Faith in Christ but yet they "believe." I guess that one just sailed out into space somewhere the last time it was cited as evidence that belief and faith are not interchangeable.

 

[FreeGrace2]

NO as usual its you that isn't getting it and your point is still lost in space . If you are going to use dNA examples then you are going to have to deal with the fact that characteristics are inherited the child can never get away from and will always be a part of him.

Apparently my previous post to you was "lost in space" as you say. But that's not from my end, to be sure. The believer retains his sin nature, so those characteristics are still present. So I've dealt with the fact of DNA. What is your point?

If you apply that to spiritual inheritance then there is a righteousness inherited from God a true believer will never get away from and will continue to drive him out of continual sin.

Well, those unfamiliar with Paul's teaching in Rom 6 don't know that it is a choice of whom we "present ourselves as slaves to obey". And righteousness isn't "inherited" as being claimed. What verse says so? None. Righteousness is CREDITED to the believer. Rom 3 and 4 say so.

Lets face it - your own analogy destroys your claim. Its a great analogy for what 1 John is saying which is that a truly born again person will not continue to practice sins non stop without repentance because his seed (DNA in your example) from God remains in him.

How does this "destroy" my claim?? It proves it.

Your claim a Christian can even go back to being a unbeliever and live any kind of life and still really have been a christian is DOA.

Clear evidence of not paying attention to my posts. No Christian can "go back to being an unbeliever". The ONLY use of "unbeliever" in the Bible is for those who have NEVER believed. Once a person believes, the MANY changes that occur CAN not be reversed, and no one from the insecurity camp has shown otherwise.

So, unless and until someone from the insecurity camp can show from Scripture that any of the MANY changes that occur when one believes can be or has been reversed, you've got zero cred.

Your concept of free grace has been proven to be a lie. It violates scripture and has been defeated by scriptures itself in 1 john.

I see just very empty claims here. No substance. No support from Scripture. No verses that say what is being claimed. <yawn>

Your concept of free grace is wrong and from the Devil because it it isn't free grace at all its bondage grace that doesn't have the power to free from a life of sin.

Wow. Such a judgmental claim when the claimer has no clue about my views, obviously. The power to be free from a life of sin comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit. But since Paul taught that believers can grieve and quench the Holy Spirit, there is obviously a choice involved. He also taught that we are to be filled with the Holy Spirit and to walk by means of the Holy Spirit, OR we would fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

How much of that were you aware of? I seriously wonder.

Strawman arguments are the best you can do because you can't answer the passage and never will be because they are clear and undeniable -the passage does not say a believer cannot sin - you are making that up to squirm out of dealing what it does say and that is that a christian cannot continue to a live a non stop life of sin

Correct. Only until such time that God removes them from the earth. John called it the "sin unto death" in 1 Jn 5:16. The principle is also found clearly in 1 Cor 10 and 11:30, and Acts 5.

I john 1:8 does NOT say we all continue in sin.

Everyone is free to their own opinion. But it certainly does say that.

It says we sin from time to time and can end it by bringing it to christ .

HUH? Where, specifically?

I john 1 says when we do truly see our sin the way God sees it and confess we need cleansing he is faithful and just to cleanse us from all our righteousness. YOU say well no not really you are just saved in some cases and continue to live in it.

Uh, where have I said such a silly thing? Please cite the post #, just for accountability for your charges.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I missed the rebuttal for this verse. What was it?

Not sure what you're referring to. What "rebuttal"?

Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

The phrase "will not blot his name" is a litotes. I recommend looking it up.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Please provide support for this claim that Scripture distinguishes between belief and faith. I don't believe claims that have no support from Scripture."

I previously cited one: James 2:19

No one thinks that the devils will be saved by Faith in Christ but yet they "believe." I guess that one just sailed out into space somewhere the last time it was cited as evidence that belief and faith are not interchangeable.

James 2:19 has nothing to do with "saving faith" as is commonly but erroneously thought. The subject of what the demons believe is that "God is One". That is monotheism. That's all. Nothing more. Why do the demons believe that? They were created by God and before they joined with Satan, they lived with God in heaven. They believe what they've SEEN. It is not based on hope.

Why people try to use Ja 2:19 to prove anything is beyond me. All James is pointing out is that this other "someone" is orthodox Jewish, who believe that God is One. But Jews believe that based on what God's Word says. Not so the demons. They have actually experienced God's Oneness.

 

[Albion]

I said this:
"Please provide support for this claim that Scripture distinguishes between belief and faith. I don't believe claims that have no support from Scripture."

James 2:19 has nothing to do with "saving faith" as is commonly but erroneously thought. The subject of what the demons believe is that "God is One". That is monotheism. That's all. Nothing more. Why do the demons believe that? They were created by God and before they joined with Satan, they lived with God in heaven. They believe what they've SEEN. It is not based on hope.

Why people try to use Ja 2:19 to prove anything is beyond me. .

Well then, that's your problem.

Not only are Faith and Belief different, but the Bible shows it to be so in a number of verses (including this one), and I complied with the request to produce something in support of it. Beyond that, I cannot compel anyone to forego his firmly-held misconceptions.

 

[outsidethecamp]

Not sure what you're referring to. What "rebuttal"?


The phrase "will not blot his name" is a litotes. I recommend looking it up.

That is very clever.

The greek word for blot out.

ἐξαλείφω
exaleiphō
ex-al-i'-fo
From G1537 and G218; to smear out, that is, obliterate (erase tears, figuratively pardon sin): - blot out, wipe away.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Please provide support for this claim that Scripture distinguishes between belief and faith. I don't believe claims that have no support from Scripture."

James 2:19 has nothing to do with "saving faith" as is commonly but erroneously thought. The subject of what the demons believe is that "God is One". That is monotheism. That's all. Nothing more. Why do the demons believe that? They were created by God and before they joined with Satan, they lived with God in heaven. They believe what they've SEEN. It is not based on hope.

Why people try to use Ja 2:19 to prove anything is beyond me. .

Well then, that's your problem.

Well, I don't have a problem. Why would anyone think so?

Not only are Faith and Belief different, but the Bible shows it to be so in a number of verses (including this one), and I complied with the request to produce something in support of it. Beyond that, I cannot compel anyone to forego his firmly-held misconceptions.

Citing Ja 2:19 doesn't explain anything. So, how are faith and belief different? And Ja 2:19 doesn't show anything about faith; only what demons believe about God being One.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Not sure what you're referring to. What "rebuttal"?

The phrase "will not blot his name" is a litotes. I recommend looking it up."

That is very clever.

The greek word for blot out.

ἐξαλείφω
exaleiphō
ex-al-i'-fo
From G1537 and G218; to smear out, that is, obliterate (erase tears, figuratively pardon sin): - blot out, wipe away.

Completely missing my point. Did you look up the meaning of a litotes? That was my point. It explains the meaning of "will not blot out".

Those who take that verse literally miss the whole point of what's being communicated. And understanding what a litotes is and how it's used goes a long way towards understanding the meaning of Scripture when it's not being literal.

 

[Near]

I think OSAS seems like a nice and comfortable doctrine for people to rest in, but it's a doctrine, upon further reflection, revealed to be quite crazy.
OSAS suggests that any sin a believer commits does not interfere with the state of his soul. Even if adultery happens, and a person remains unfaithful to their spouse, or even if a person commits murder, a person who was once saved is always saved. Either a saved person cannot possibly commit murder, or in the mind of OSAS adherents there is such a thing as a murderer who is a saved born-again christian. Are there also saved child-molesters?
If you believe in OSAS, tell me, does a person who engages in unlawful, and heinous crime continue to be saved?
Can you agree with the following statement:

"OSAS: sin won't affect your salvation, even if you murder people ... for fun! "

Does that statement pull on any cords of the heart?

1 John 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

 

[Albion]

I said this:
"Please provide support for this claim that Scripture distinguishes between belief and faith. I don't believe claims that have no support from Scripture."

James 2:19 has nothing to do with "saving faith" as is commonly but erroneously thought.

So you said. I can't control that.

 

[jsimms615]

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