Once Saved Always Saved: Fact or Fiction?

[gigman7]

How does this justify your argument for OSAS?

Your arguments can also be applied to many non-Christians that don't sin because they just want to go out and sin all the time.

Example: Just because an atheist does not sin doesn't make him a Christian either.

This person does not exist.

 

[gigman7]

I'm speechless. Do all OSAS advocates have a different view on being saved?

So if a believer is not saved, is he chop liver? Or shish-kabob if going to hell?

If you do not get saved, you will not be going to heaven. How can any Christian not understand that?

Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven . . .

 

[Albion]

Here's the proposition from God: "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". Or, "those who behold and believe in the Son may have eternal life". When hearing these propositions, one either believes the proposition, or they do not believe the proposition.

Those who believe the proposition are saved and given eternal life.


The Christian life STARTS with faith in Christ. That's where the relationship begins. That is saving faith; faith in Christ.

You can nit-pick this to death and insist upon a certain preferred meaning, but Scripture often distinguishes between belief and faith, so it's obvious that the two, as used in the Bible, are not automatically synonyms for each other.

 

[Albion]

Who is talking about "earning" salvation? Can you direct me to that post?

I can name a dozen for you, but I don't think that would be a proper use of these forums. You can easily, however, review the belief systems of those churches which teach this POV.

 

[outsidethecamp]

I can name a dozen for you, but I don't think that would be a proper use of these forums.

Off Topic:

Here are a dozen that describe the character and behavior of those who are abiding in the Lord. These are not considered "works" for salvation, but response to the dynamic activity of God within an individual.

1. Eliminate the mixture. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)
2. Beware of Lawlessness (Titus 2:14)
3. Walk in the spirit of reconciliation (Colossians 1:21, Hebrews 12:15)
4. Daily consecrate your life on the altar. (Romans 12:1)
5. Draw your life from the Spirit, not the flesh. (Galatians 5:16, I John 2:15,16)
6. Subject every desire to One desire. (1 John 2:17)
7. Keep yourselves from idols. (1 John 5:21)
8. Endure the discipline of the Father (Hebrews 12:5-11)
9. Beware of willful sin. (Hebrews 10:26-31, 6:4-6)
10. Keep yourselves in the love of God. (Jude 1:21)
11. Make no provision for the flesh (Romans 13:14)
12. Love one another (1 John 4:7)

There is no security for those whose behavior does not reflect the Life of Christ within them.

 

[Albion]

Here are a dozen that describe the character and behavior of those who are abiding in the Lord. These are not considered "works" for salvation, but response to the dynamic activity of God within an individual.

1. Eliminate the mixture. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)
2. Beware of Lawlessness (Titus 2:14)
3. Walk in the spirit of reconciliation (Colossians 1:21, Hebrews 12:15)
4. Daily consecrate your life on the altar. (Romans 12:1)
5. Draw your life from the Spirit, not the flesh. (Galatians 5:16, I John 2:15,16)
6. Subject every desire to One desire. (1 John 2:17)
7. Keep yourselves from idols. (1 John 5:21)
8. Endure the discipline of the Father (Hebrews 12:5-11)
9. Beware of willful sin. (Hebrews 10:26-31, 6:4-6)
10. Keep yourselves in the love of God. (Jude 1:21)
11. Make no provision for the flesh (Romans 13:14)
12. Love one another (1 John 4:7)

There is no security for those whose behavior does not reflect the Life of Christ within them.

You've switched topics now, I see.

 

[outsidethecamp]

You've switched topics now, I see.

I edited it and added, "Off Topic". Now, we can get back to regular programming.

 

[MikeEnders]

No one can be completely free without sin no matter how righteous. 1 John 3:9 doesn't imply perfection,

its quite obvious to avoid dealing with the passage you intend to keep on making up strawmen. No one said anything about perfection. All you are doing is ignoring what is being said and being a drive by passage quoter whether the verse applies to the present conversation or not - its just lazy scriptural pontification. I don't know who is reading through all of any of your posts but it certainly isn't me.

You remind me of a few young believers who early in their christian life just start witnessing to unbelievers by throwing tons of scriptures and "spiritual" pontifications at them indiscriminately and often out of context (and in error). All the time they convince themselves they are reaching the lost while in fact they are driving them away by not talking to them but at them.

 

[MikeEnders]

It's not I that isn't getting this. When one is born again, we don't lose the old sin nature. But we do get a new spiritual nature. And you've actually made my point. The relationship between birth parent and child cannot be broken. That was my point.

NO as usual its you that isn't getting it and your point is still lost in space . If you are going to use dNA examples then you are going to have to deal with the fact that characteristics are inherited the child can never get away from and will always be a part of him. If you apply that to spiritual inheritance then there is a righteousness inherited from God a true believer will never get away from and will continue to drive him out of continual sin. Lets face it - your own analogy destroys your claim. Its a great analogy for what 1 John is saying which is that a truly born again person will not continue to practice sins non stop without repentance because his seed (DNA in your example) from God remains in him.

Your claim a Christian can even go back to being a unbeliever and live any kind of life and still really have been a christian is DOA. Its time to call it like it is since i have given you guys days to answer the passages in 1 john and none of you can

Your concept of free grace has been proven to be a lie. It violates scripture and has been defeated by scriptures itself in 1 john. Your concept of free grace is wrong and from the Devil because it it isn't free grace at all its bondage grace that doesn't have the power to free from a life of sin. Its a weeaaak salvation unworthy of Christ because it leaves according to you some christians still sitting in the jail cell of sin with nothing but fire insurance

John NEVER said that a believer cannot sin. That would be sinless perfection. And John had already noted in 1 Jn 1:8 that we all continue to sin.

Strawman arguments are the best you can do because you can't answer the passage and never will be because they are clear and undeniable -the passage does not say a believer cannot sin - you are making that up to squirm out of dealing what it does say and that is that a christian cannot continue to a live a non stop life of sin

I john 1:8 does NOT say we all continue in sin. It says we sin from time to time and can end it by bringing it to christ . I john 1 says when we do truly see our sin the way God sees it and confess we need cleansing he is faithful and just to cleanse us from all our righteousness. YOU say well no not really you are just saved in some cases and continue to live in it.

I don't know if you are harboring some sin in your life that you are trying to protect with this twisting of God's grace but it does us all well sometimes to examine ourselves and see if we really are in the faith. Your eternal life may depend on it.

 

[MikeEnders]

There is no security for those whose behavior does not reflect the Life of Christ within them.

Some of you have such a weak view of Christ its almost blasphemous. The amazing thing about it is that your above quote just completely defies what the NT teaches COUNTLESS times - that fruit always follows real inward change. The idea that the God of the universe can be within you and it not be reflected in an outward life is completely foreign to what the NT teaches and is just a false doctrine you are making up. The power of God in the presence of the spirit is too powerful to make no outward reflection.

Like a house at night with all the windows open - if you don't see any light being reflected from inside its because there is no light in there to begin with. The book of 1 john says so over and over again but you run from it and around it like the plague because it rebukes your false doctrines

 

[outsidethecamp]

its quite obvious to avoid dealing with the passage you intend to keep on making up strawmen. No one said anything about perfection. All you are doing is ignoring what is being said and being a drive by passage quoter whether the verse applies to the present conversation or not - its just lazy scriptural pontification. I don't know who is reading through all of any of your posts but it certainly isn't me.

You remind me of a few young believers who early in their christian life just start witnessing to unbelievers by throwing tons of scriptures and "spiritual" pontifications at them indiscriminately and often out of context (and in error). All the time they convince themselves they are reaching the lost while in fact they are driving them away by not talking to them but at them.

Many have lost their first love. Thank God for young believers who have a white hot love for Jesus and who have not been corrupted by unbiblical theological systems that do not lead one into godliness and holiness.

 

[outsidethecamp]

Some of you have such a weak view of Christ its almost blasphemous. The amazing thing about it is that your above quote just completely defies what the NT teaches COUNTLESS times - that fruit always follows real inward change. The idea that the God of the universe can be within you and it not be reflected in an outward life is completely foreign to what the NT teaches and is just a false doctrine you are making up. The power of God in the presence of the spirit is too powerful to make no outward reflection.

And what of the ones whose life did reflect the light and love of Christ and now don't? Oh, that's right, they were never saved.

You can't have it both ways.

 

[MikeEnders]

Many have lost their first love. Thank God for young believers who have a white hot love for Jesus and who have not been corrupted by unbiblical theological systems that do not lead one into godliness and holiness.

You mean like getting saved and lost multiple times? thats righteous and holy living? lol.... and no......rattling off scriptures and preaching at people rather than talking to them is not "White hot love" its more like being pharisee like in your "righteousness".

Meanwhile can we finally get a serious non dancing around the facts answer to the passage in 1 john or are you just going to keep try to working yourself around them which is typical of an unbiblical theological system?

 

[MikeEnders]

And what of the ones whose life did reflect the light and love of Christ and now don't? Oh, that's right, they were never saved.

You can't have it both ways.

I am not trying to you just can't follow an analogy very well or don;t understand that analogies are just that - analogies.

According to 1 John (you know that entire book you keep running away from or twisting to escape what it says) if the light comes form a real relationship with Christ it will never go out. You keep looking at people who claimed to have been Christians to determine your beliefs - I will continue to look at all scriptures together

 

[outsidethecamp]

I am not trying to you just can't follow an analogy very well or don;t understand that analogies are just that - analogies.

According to 1 John (you know that entire book you keep running away from or twisting to escape what it says) if the light comes form a real relationship with Christ it will never go out. You keep looking at people who claimed to have been Christians to determine your beliefs - I will continue to look at all scriptures together

It is understood that John is writing to the Church in 1 John, he is not writing to unbelievers. (My little children, 1 Jn 2:1).

He warns them about deceiving themselves (1 Jn 1:8)
He warns them about making God a liar (1 Jn 1:9)

If any many sin, we have an advocate with he Father (1 Jn 2:1). Sinning does not make one lost or apostate.

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Was the truth at one time in this person? You may say no, but 1 Jn 1:8-9 is an admonition to John's "children" to not be deceived.

1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
The emphasis is on "keeping his word". This is not considered a work of self-righteousness.

1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
This person may have abided in the Lord at one time and stopped. Abiding is a choice, is it not?

1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
He that used to love his brother and now hateth him, is also making a choice, is he not? Maybe, that is why Paul is cautioning against a "root of bitterness" and Jesus says in Matthew 24 "because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."
Heb_12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
1Jn 2:11 "But he that hateth his brother is in darkness..."

John cautions against loving the world, because it will crowd out the love of God in your life.
1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Demas forsook Paul, having loved this present world. (Of course, I understand that you think Demas was never saved).
2Ti_4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

1Jn 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

What is John talking about, "Let that therefore abide in you". What abides in us is Jesus Christ, the Truth. Truth is not a commodity but a Person. "Abide in Me and I in You", (John 15).

"If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son and in the Father"
The implication is that if you do not let that which ye have heard from the beginning remain in you, ye shall NOT continue in the Son and in the Father.

There you go, you wanted 1 John, should I continue? Why do we twist God's word and not take it for what it says?

John says that it is possible for us to be seduced.
1Jn 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

1Jn 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

"abide in Him". Why do we have to be told this if what you say is true. "if the light comes form a real relationship with Christ it will never go out." Possibly, because lights can be snuffed out?

Do you take exception at the Apostles for all their warnings to the Church?

 

[FreeGrace2]

What you don't seem to understand is, angels who are sons of God has been cast into hell.

They were created by God. Believers are adopted as sons of God. Huge difference. Your point is moot. They were not regenerated, born again, given eternal life, which is irrevocable.

Lucifer who is now Satan, is a son of God and he also will be cast into hell with all his angels.

Irrelevant.

So much for your fellowship and relationship "theory".

LOL So much for the discernment to distinguish the difference.

What verse says that God will revoke eternal life? Are there any? Of course there aren't.

If eternal life is revocable, then it isn't eternal. That would make the Bible contradicted and lying to us.

 

[outsidethecamp]

They were created by God. Believers are adopted as sons of God. Huge difference. Your point is moot. They were not regenerated, born again, given eternal life, which is irrevocable.


Irrelevant.


LOL So much for the discernment to distinguish the difference.

What verse says that God will revoke eternal life? Are there any? Of course there aren't.

If eternal life is revocable, then it isn't eternal. That would make the Bible contradicted and lying to us.

I missed the rebuttal for this verse. What was it?

Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No I am accurate here,

"...us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself...: (Ephesians 1:5)

I didn't say that we weren't adopted.

I said this:
"This is totally confused. The prodigal parable wasn't about salvation but about fellowship".[/QUOTE]

Then you said this:
"You are not right there as well"

"Luke 15:24
For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found..."

To be dead and alive again and lost and found, is not simply fellowship.[/QUOTE]
Parables are not meant to be taken literally. A parable is figurative.

You twist scripture when it doesnt fit your view.

I disagree with your opinion.

Sometimes it only takes one scripture to bring down a huge false giant of OSAS as David only needed one smooth stone to bring down Goliath.

Except there are no such verses, as some think. Eternal life is a gift of God, so says Paul in Rom 6:23. The VERY NEXT TIME he mentioned the gifts of God was in 11:29 where he said that God's gifts are irrevocable. That is the ONE scripture that brings down the FALSE DOCTRINE of loss of salvation. just as David's ONE smooth stone brought down the very offensive giant.

and dead and lost will obviously mean they have no fellowship either .

No, it only means there was no fellowship. That is what had "died". The relationship continued. He was still a son, even while in riotous living and sitting in the pig pens. That NEVER changed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I did, but since you don't understand what cursed means, it kind hard to have an intelligent conversation.

Given the level of your misunderstanding of my posts, such insults have no effect on me.

Example of Cursed -

‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

What verse tells us that any believer is cursed? None do, of course. So your theory is dead on arrival.

In fact, those who have been declared justified are promised this: Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ - Rom 5:1.

Also, Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Rom 8:1

More verses that totally refute the insecurity opinion:
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1:13-14

For those who don't understand what a pledge is:
set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

How does one conclude insecurity from these verse??

Now it's up to you to show from the scriptures, that cursed people continue to be saved and go to heaven.

I never said that cursed people go to heaven. I have proven that all believers have peace with God and there is NO condemnation.

Those who repent and are saved, but then turn back to practicing the works of the flesh, are warned they will not inheriting the kingdom of God.

I've already explained this and you've already rejected it. There is nothing more to discuss. And my view hasn't been refuted; only disagreed with.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Now it's up to you to prove from the scriptures where Jesus used this phrase
"inherit the kingdom" to mean rewards.

JLB

Once again, been there, done that. And you're rejected it without any refutation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You can nit-pick this to death and insist upon a certain preferred meaning, but Scripture often distinguishes between belief and faith, so it's obvious that the two, as used in the Bible, are not automatically synonyms for each other.

Please provide support for this claim that Scripture distinguishes between belief and faith. I don't believe claims that have no support from Scripture.