I've grown up in a Christian home that believes Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS), and I, myself, have doubts about it but am for it. With the debates that circle it on many occasions, what is your viewpoint and reasoning behind it; whether it is supposedly fact or suplosedly fiction?
EDIT*: I don't think this thread applies to this forum.
I've grown up in a Christian home that believes Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS), and I, myself, have doubts about it but am for it. With the debates that circle it on many occasions, what is your viewpoint and reasoning behind it; whether it is supposedly fact or suplosedly fiction?
I believe in the believer's conditional security. That means as long as a person remains a God-loving christian, he's saved. If he stops being a christian, he's not saved. Let's say he commits apostasy, he would then lose his salvation and desperately needs to come back to Christ.
Eternal security (and it's corollary OSAS) is entirely Biblical, as well as soundly Christian.
"They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ, the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace: from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves." Westminster Confession of Faith [17]
"Since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God."
1 Peter 1:23
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."
John 6:37
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."
John 10:27-29
"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?"
Romans 8:35
"For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 8:38-39
"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."
Romans 11:29
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."
1 John 2:19
"And I am sure of this, that He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."
Philippians 1:6
"If we are faithless, he remains faithful - for he cannot deny himself."
2 Timothy 2:13
There's a multitude of scripture against the belief that the believer's security in Christ is conditional.
Start from Genesis 1, and read on to the end in Revelation. Then do it again. http://bible.christianpost.com/Genesis/1//
#wecanallquotethebiblewhynotjustpastealinktothewholething
edit: point being, this isn't my first rodeo, we should all know that we interpret scripture differently by now, even if you quote a series of verses...
Eternal security (and it's corollary OSAS) is entirely Biblical, as well as soundly Christian.
"They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ, the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace: from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves." Westminster Confession of Faith [17]
"Since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God."
1 Peter 1:23
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."
John 6:37
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."
John 10:27-29
"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?"
Romans 8:35
"For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 8:38-39
"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."
Romans 11:29
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."
1 John 2:19
"And I am sure of this, that He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."
Philippians 1:6
"If we are faithless, he remains faithful - for he cannot deny himself."
2 Timothy 2:13
What about each of those verses lead you to believe in eternal security?
You could add your thoughts to them, telling us why you think so.
For example, here's a small passage, and what I think of it:
James 5
19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
From what I can tell, James is speaking of the brethren, and by that he means fellow believers in Christ. When he says, "anyone among you" wandering from the truth, I believe he means that fellow brothers in Christ drift away. In verse 20, James tells us that the sinner, who was a brother, when he is turned back, is then saved, and his sins are again forgiven.
It makes sense to me that in order to be re-saved, you'd have to get re-lost, which means a person can be lost after they're initially known Christ. That's my understanding of it.
I don't believe that the believer's security in Christ is conditional. I believe in unconditional eternal security (and as a result, in its corollary OSAS).
Start from Genesis 1, and read on to the end in Revelation. Then do it again. http://bible.christianpost.com/Genesis/1//
#wecanallquotethebiblewhynotjustpastealinktothewholething
edit: point being, this isn't my first rodeo, we should all know that we interpret scripture differently by now, even if you quote a series of verses...
"Since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God." 1 Peter 1:23
Now that we've been born again, we cannot fall from grace or perish.
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."
John 6:37
Christ will never cast out those who come to Him, bound through the Father's will since the beginning of time (Ephesians 1:3-14). Those who come genuinely will never lose their faith or salvation.
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."
John 10:27-29
Not even we can free ourselves from Christ once sanctified and redeemed by His holy blood.
"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?" Romans 8:35
Surely we ourselves cannot separate ourselves from the love of Christ once saved. Why?
"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." Romans 11:29
"If we are faithless, he remains faithful - for he cannot deny himself." 2 Timothy 2:13
To hold this belief you must say that somebody who was once Christian and believed everything that you believed, but then later on changed their mind and rejected God, is still saved. Obviously the Bible would reject this idea so you would be forced into a position where you must say that they were never saved in the first place. If they were never saved in the first place even though they believed exactly what you believed at one point in time, then how do you know if you are saved. You couldn't possibly know so this belief tells you nothing.
To hold this belief you must say that somebody who was once Christian and believed everything that you believed, but then later on changed their mind and rejected God, is still saved. Obviously the Bible would reject this idea so you would be forced into a position where you must say that they were never saved in the first place. If they were never saved in the first place even though they believed exactly what you believed at one point in time, then how do you know if you are saved. You couldn't possibly know so this belief tells you nothing.
So do you know the heart of an individual who claimed to believe exactly what I believe? Obviously they wouldn't have, or else they'd still be a Christian. How do you know they had a salvation experience? How do you know they didn't lie?
I don't believe that the believer's security in Christ is conditional. I believe in unconditional eternal security (and as a result, in its corollary OSAS).
Next?
It's not my "first rodeo" either. All of the verses quoted support the doctrine of eternal security.
You want me to? OK.
"Since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God." 1 Peter 1:23
Now that we've been born again, we cannot fall from grace or perish.
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."
John 6:37
Christ will never cast out those who come to Him, bound through the Father's will since the beginning of time (Ephesians 1:3-14). Those who come genuinely will never lose their faith or salvation.
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."
John 10:27-29
Not even we can free ourselves from Christ once sanctified and redeemed by His holy blood.
"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?" Romans 8:35
Surely we ourselves cannot separate ourselves from the love of Christ once saved. Why?
"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." Romans 11:29
"If we are faithless, he remains faithful - for he cannot deny himself." 2 Timothy 2:13
"Since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God." 1 Peter 1:23
You seem to think that imperishable refers to the born again person. I believe Peter is referring to the Word of God as the seed, he doesn't seem to be say that our entrance into God's kingdom is imperishable.
24 because, “All flesh is as grass, And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass. The grass withers, And its flower falls away, 25 But the word of the Lord endures forever.
John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
I understand this to mean that If we are coming to Jesus, he wont reject us. However, the verse speaks of those who actively go to Jesus, and Jesus doesn't cast those one out. The verse doesn't seem to go against the idea that Christ can spit us out of his mouth if we don't go to him. Ex. Rev 3
14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,
‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.
You say:
Christ will never cast out those who come to Him, bound through the Father's will since the beginning of time (Ephesians 1:3-14). Those who come genuinely will never lose their faith or salvation.
It seems like a leap to say they wont lose their faith or salvation from that passage. Note that the passage doesn't say Christ wont cast out those who no longer come to him. It seems circular , Christ wont cast us out because we cant stop coming, and we cant stop coming because Christ wont cast us out... until you consider we can stop coming...
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."
John 10:27-29
When speaking of sheep, It seems to me that the sheep are those who follow Jesus. Those who follow Jesus will not perish, but will have everlasting life. Jesus describes his sheep as those who hear and follow Jesus. The verses presented don't seem to say that a person can't apostatize and cease to follow Jesus.
"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?" Romans 8:35
I don't see internal forces mentioned, nothing in that list says we can't depart from Christ. External forces of tribulation are mentioned.
36 As it is written:
“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”
Secondly, I believe Paul's passage there deals with God's love, not salvation. It seems to be a reassuring passage for those in tribulation saying that although tough times are here, God still loves us.
"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." Romans 11:29
^Refers to God's plan to save Israel.
"If we are faithless, he remains faithful - for he cannot deny himself." 2 Timothy 2:13
Christ is faithful, and doesn't deny himself. He remains good, even if we don't.
I don't see how people use that verse to say that we have eternal security.
2 Tim 2:
12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.
Hebrews 10:26-31 ESV
26For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
The Bible contains some passages which appear to say clearly and unambiguously that once a person gains salvation, they can lose it. Examples are from the King James Version of the Bible unless the language is so archaic that it is difficult to understand; more modern translations are then used.
Matthew 10:22: "...he that endureth to the end shall be saved." The implication is that someone who does not stands firm to the end will not be saved. Some theologians dismiss this interpretation; they believe that a person who does not stand firm never was saved in the first place; thus all that are truly saved will continue in that state.
John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that that everyone who believes in him might not perish, but may have eternal life." (NAB) The NIV translation of this verse (described above) implies that everyone who believes "shall" have eternal life. The Amplified Bible agrees. But other translations use alternative words: "should," "may,"or "might." These latter version of the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) imply that saved persons may have eternal life or possibly may perish. Presumably they could lose their salvation by their actions.
This is superb example of how Bible translators can select words which match their own theological belief systems. The NAB translation is used extensively by Roman Catholics who believe that an individual can lose their salvation may times during their lifetime, and frequently regain it by sincerely participating in church sacraments. Those conservative Christians who believe that one cannot lose ones salvation frequently use the NIV translation.
John 15:6: "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up , thrown into the fire and burned." (NIV) A person who "does not remain" in Jesus is apparently a saved person whose behavior or thoughts have become unacceptable. Throwing the formerly saved person into the fire and burning them is an obvious reference to Hell.
1 Corinthians 15-2: "By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain."Paul apparently believes that a person is only saved if they continue to believe in the gospel. If they lose faith in the gospel, presumably they lose their salvation. Some conservative theologians believe that this verse also refers to those who were not really initially saved.
Galatians 6:8-9: "The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in going good, for at the proper time, we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." (NIV) This passage appears to make salvation dependent on an individual continually working towards their goal of attaining eternal life. If a person gives up prematurely, then they would lose their salvation.
2 Timothy 2:12: "If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us." Elsewhere in the Bible a number of verses refer to saved persons reigning with Jesus. So, the "we" in this passage apparently means saved individuals. But if we "deny and disown and reject" (Amplified Bible) Jesus, then he will do the same to us, and presumably terminate our salvation.
Hebrews 6:4-6: "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the son of God afresh and put him to an open shame." The first two verses define precisely an individual who had being saved and was receiving the benefits of salvation. The last verse states clearly that a person is quite capable of falling away from the faith...and if they do so, that it is impossible for their salvation to be renewed.
Christians who believe that a person can never lose their salvation may interpret this passage as meaning:
That they were never true believers in the first place, and thus were never initially saved, or
That Verse 6 says that a saved person who rejected Jesus and denied the Christian faith would never be able to repent in the future. If they could never repent, then they could never be saved again. However, it is not clear why they could not repent a second time. If they repented once, there does not seem to be any obvious reason why they could not repeat the process at a later time.
This passage has caused some theologians to doubt that Hebrews was written by an apostle. Some church leaders have been convinced to "refuse the right of lapsed believers to be reinstated in the church..." 1
Hebrews 10:26: "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." The early Christians universally believed that this passage referred to persons who had been saved, had continued to sin, and had thereby lost their salvation. Some present-day theologians teach that this verse refers only to the unsaved.
2 Peter 2:20-21: "For if after they have escaped the pollution's of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered onto them." The first verse appears to refer to persons who have turned away from the corruption of the world, have been saved, and later returned entangled in the world. The implication is that these people will be more viciously treated after death by God's wrath than those people who were never saved.
Losing one's salvation through forbidden behaviors:
Three verses from the Christian Scriptures seem to imply that certain behaviors will cancel a person's salvation. Three passages declare absolutely that all persons who perform certain behaviors will not "inherit the kingdom of God". These verses seem to be absolute. That is, they apply to everyone, even to those who have been previously saved:
1 Corinthians 6:9-11: "Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God."(ASV)
St. Paul appears to state that some members of the church at Corinth were once following some of the behaviors listed and would thus not inherit the kingdom of God. But after they were saved, they changed their behavior. But the passage does seem to state unambiguously that all individuals who commit one of the forbidden sins after having been saved will go to hell.
I'm sorry for taking the thread in a slightly different direction.
(not that it hasn't gone that way already).
No homosexual activity is loving. It's an abomination in God's eyes, and will send a person to hell.
As for homosexual relationships, or as some falsely say, gay marriages, they are also abominations.
If a person is coming to Christ, he will not be engaging in such behavior.
I'm sorry for taking the thread in a slightly different direction.
(not that it hasn't gone that way already).
No homosexual activity is loving. It's an abomination in God's eyes, and will send a person to hell.
As for homosexual relationships, or as some falsely say, gay marriages, they are also abominations.
If a person is coming to Christ, he will not be engaging in such behavior.
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."
John 10:27-29
"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?"
Romans 8:35
"For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 8:38-39
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."
1 John 2:19
This is about those who endured till the end and completed their good work. They will be rewarded when Christ returns. This has nothing to do with Christians that fall away nor ever walked in the spirit.
Revelation 3:5 (KJV)He that overcometh , the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Any Christian that continues to follow sin does not overcome, and will have their names remove from the book of life.
Christians that overcome are born again and does not sin.
1 John 3:9 (ESV) No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
Bottom line: Once saved always saved is an utterly false teaching leading Christians to hell.
So do you know the heart of an individual who claimed to believe exactly what I believe? Obviously they wouldn't have, or else they'd still be a Christian. How do you know they had a salvation experience? How do you know they didn't lie?
Most people who convert to Christianity believe that it is the truth or else there would be no reason to convert. Some people may lie about their conversion but the argument doesn't need to apply to every Christian who becomes an apostate. People can wholeheartedly believe in something and then change their mind later on. If you are saved the moment that you first believe then these people should be saved. Apostates will not be saved because the Bible says we must endure to the end and they didn't.
Don't know if this has been discussed before-- but what about these 2?
(Act 5:3) But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
(Act 5:4) Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Ananias and Sepphira were Christians not Jews. They had accepted Christ and thus were saved. However, they both lied to God and were struck down. They died liars and thus lost, no liars get to heaven.
People can wholeheartedly believe in something and then change their mind later on. If you are saved the moment that you first believe then these people should be saved.
They weren't saved at that first moment but only thought or said that they were. There is nothing surprising or confusing about being "only skin deep" or "an inch deep and a mile wide" about some commitment or other. We even have expressions that we use all the time to describe such a thing.
