Not sinning does not mean anything; not equivalent to holiness or godliness

[FredVB]

There is a fear that prompts wonder and awe, like The Grand Canyon.
The first time I saw the ocean I was afraid and in love with it's glory.
Paul says we have not been given a Spirit of fear, BUT...

2 Timothy 1:7 King James Version (KJV)
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

There is call throughout all time for fearing Yahweh God. But as fear is said to not be needed by a good number as has been seen, it shows that fear of God is not so widely understood. God is vastly awesome, knowing everything to the most minute detail, with unlimited power, with such over everything in the universe and all creation. Knowing our Maker, who is benevolent with it shown from revelation, being so mighty over our lives, with loving him we would still fear him, if we don't, we don't really understand God that way.

 

[hmw]

hmw: Christians have overcome simply by believing in Jesus.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

hmw says; "simply by believing."

Jesus says; "he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end."

We have a choice:
believe and follow 'hmw'
or
believe and follow Jesus.
They're pointing in different directions.

And how does one overcome?

1John 5:5
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

This is consistent with what I said in my earlier post. It seems you are pointing in a different direction from Christ.

 

[thesunisout]

Not sinning is really not that big a deal, is it ? If so many people claim to not sin, maybe we should study this with further scrutiny. Secular Humanists/Atheists/Agnostics/"X" might not murder, steal, commit adultery, covet, take The Lord's name in vain, build idols...get the point.


Not sinning is not holiness. Not sinning is not righteousness. Not sinning is not perfection. Not sinning is merely avoiding certain moral behavior. If the unsaved cannot sin, then being sinless must not be godliness. Even Jesus commented on the advanced learning of harlots and tax collectors.


Sinners are generous & kind, maybe moreso than "perfect" folk.

Sinners visit the sick & feed the poor, maybe moreso than "perfect" folk.

Sinners forgive and exhibit mercy, maybe moreso than "perfect" folk.



To not sin can be compared to not breaking any rules. Not very hard...

Those who claim to be without sin are falling short in Gods character but don't notice it. What a sad thing to be frozen in sanctification because you believe holiness is sinlessness and not the perfection of character of which sinlessness is a byproduct.

 

[bigo1984]

Do you think a man would dare declare his sinlessness in the presence of Jesus ? I can tell you I wouldn't, but I guess some would. Would Jesus think more of me if I convince Him that I do not sin ? How would The Lord respond ?





But, what is in play here is holiness and godliness.

A good, unsaved man may not sin at all. He does not have God's righteousness. He is self-righteous because he is able to maintain a certain position based upon his acceptable behavior. He is driving the speed limit, doing good works, and loving his neighbor. Yet, he is hellbound. Avoiding sin can be done by a man who ignores Christ.

Matthew 19:21

Jesus told him, "If you want to be perfect, go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Jesus told this to the man who said he had followed all the commandments since his youth.

 

[joshuanazar]

Sinning is not actions. Sin is a nature of rebellion against God that results in evil actions. Sin is not being perfect, Sin is not being like God in every way.

 

[Near]

Sinning is not actions. Sin is a nature of rebellion against God that results in evil actions. Sin is not being perfect, Sin is not being like God in every way.

I think you're conflating terms.

Sin nature refers to the nature of rebellion against God that results in evil actions.

Evil actions aka sins, are the result of the sin nature of rebellion against God.

I thought the issue of saying we're all sinners was to say that we all actually live lives which will routinely have some degree, more or less, immorality, which is what those things called acts of sin are.

I mean, if we reduce sin to a "nature", rather than actual acts, then what stops us from saying that there are people who are by nature sinful, but that says nothing about whether or not they actually commit evil acts.

disclaimer: I don't actually believe in an Augustinian or reformed sin nature, nor do I believe that being sin free in this life is impossible.

 

[Near]

Those who claim to be without sin are falling short in Gods character but don't notice it. What a sad thing to be frozen in sanctification because you believe holiness is sinlessness and not the perfection of character of which sinlessness is a byproduct.

If sinlessness is a byproduct, does that mean a person who has gone through the perfection of character is going to avoid saying, "I'm sinless". Is it the case that a man who claims to be sinless still has sin, and if he were really sinless he wouldn't have even mentioned it?

It seems like your claim allows for it.

 

[bigo1984]

Hi endtimewarrior,

Kemosabe is correct in quoting Jesus, ""For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

Our works are simply to believe in Jesus, John 6:29.

And in believing in Jesus, our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
Hence we cannot be charged with the sin of unrighteousness (1John 5:17).

In believing in Jesus we're not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9).
Hence we cannot be charged with the sin of transgression of the law (1John 3:4).

Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

So we see that Christians have "ceased from sin" (1Pet 4:1) , "cannot sin" (1John 3:9) when we believe in Jesus.

As for our imperfect physical body, that always fails through it's weaknesses, it's already dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10. So as it's dead, then we don't judge our righteousness by it's failings.

So is that was these verses are talking about?



For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.


7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.


7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.


7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.


7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.


7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:


7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.


7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?


7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[joshuanazar]

So is that was these verses are talking about?



For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.


7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.


7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.


7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.


7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.


7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:


7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.


7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?


7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

These verses are talking about even though Paul had a relationship with God and he no longer had a nature of rebellion against God. But even though he had a new heavenly nature "the new man", sin still dwelled in this world and his corrupted. While living in this corruption the acts are always present in our body, but they do not originate from our nature anymore. they do not come from us. We are dead to the law, sin, and our flesh.
I am saying that if we really love God we will hate any evil action that our flesh produces before it even produces it (this is true repentance). And if we realize that Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient to forgive and forget about these actions when he said it is finished, then sin will have no more dominion over us. If our flesh produces something that is against God's nature and our new nature, then we do not have to worry about it separating us from God or his fellowship. Because 1. it is not really us doing the evil act but our flesh, 2. We know that Jesus has already finished the process of forgiving and forgetting, 3. We know that the Holy Spirit is still working out its sanctification on us.
Does that then give us a free license to sin? NO, because we HATE sin. We love God and want to magnify his characteristics, so we do not sin.

Sorry for the long post I was answering another reply also.

 

[joshuanazar]

I think you're conflating terms.

Sin nature refers to the nature of rebellion against God that results in evil actions.

Evil actions aka sins, are the result of the sin nature of rebellion against God.

I thought the issue of saying we're all sinners was to say that we all actually live lives which will routinely have some degree, more or less, immorality, which is what those things called acts of sin are.

I mean, if we reduce sin to a "nature", rather than actual acts, then what stops us from saying that there are people who are by nature sinful, but that says nothing about whether or not they actually commit evil acts.

disclaimer: I don't actually believe in an Augustinian or reformed sin nature, nor do I believe that being sin free in this life is impossible.

Yes just like I said evil actions are products of an evil nature. If you read my reply to bigo you might get a better idea of what I am talking about. I know these ideas though biblical are not very popular in churches.

Will we ever be perfect? Will we be sinless? One day we will put of this corrupt flesh. But for now we have to use faith in God's word even if the physical does not yet show it. Right now we are perfect in Christ, we are sinless in Christ, we are righteous in Christ; even after we get our new bodies we still have to remain in Christ in order to be perfect and sinless. Which is pretty awesome. Normally religion tell us we have to be perfect to be with God. But God says we have to be with him to be perfect. The very goal that we were seeking has become the answer. Grace is wonderful.

 

[FredVB]

In this life here one is never in a position to say one is without sin even at a time after repentance coming to giving sin up. As believers we don't have to sin again, it is possible to give up sins, but presumption is a sin too. Our only righteousness before God is just that from Christ.