Not a Debate

[Cody2]

My article on the subject...

This article will explain why women cannot be Pastors in a local church. Please understand this article is not against women, rather it is simply Biblical truth. God has different roles for both man and woman that we must obey.

1 Timothy 2:11 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

This verse teaches that a woman should be meek, quiet (1 Peter 3:4) and not usurp authority over the man in the home because he is the leader (1 Cor. 11:3). It goes on to say that the reason for this is because Eve was made for Adam, not the other way around. Eve was his help meet for Adam (Genesis 2:18) and is commanded to submit to him (Ephesians 5:22, Colossians 3:18). Women are also more easily deceived compared to men.

1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

The context of these verses is talking about speaking in tongues. Women were not aloud to speak in tongues when the Jewish signs were still present. Most of the churches that speak in tongues today will have women speaking in tongues also, which shows that not only are they liars, but they do not even obey the rules of speaking in tongues. The gift of tongues then were used to preach in a different language. That being said, these verses prove that women cannot be Pastors because in doing so, they have to usurp authority over males in the church, which is strictly against scripture.

However, this does not mean a woman cannot speak at all in church. Only that a woman cannot be in a position that deals with teaching or having authority over grown men. Women are aloud to testify and sing in church.

Psalms 107:2 "Let the redeemed of the LORD say so, whom he hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy;"

Psalms 150:6 "Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD."

Women are also aloud to teach younger women and and children. Doing this does not usurp authority over men.

Titus 2:3 "The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,"

Women can teach the Bible to a man outside of the church, but only if her husband is present with her.

Acts 18:26 "And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly."

The Bible teaches that a Bishop, which is a Pastor has to be the husband(male) of one wife. A woman cannot hold the position of a Pastor or even a Deacon (1 Timothy 3:12).

1 Timothy 3:2 "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;"

Some will argue that Phebe in Romans 16:1 was a deaconess, but this is not true. The Bible says that she was a "servant". The Greek word used here is not feminine, rather neutral. There is not one Greek lexicon anywhere that says "deaconess". There is no way that she could of been a deaconess because she was not the husband of one wife (1 Timothy 3:12).

Romans 16:1 "I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:"

Not only does the Bible forbid women Pastors, Deacons and Preachers, but it also says that when a woman is the leader of a nation, apostasy and judgment is connected. That being said we should not have a woman President.

Isaiah 3:12 "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths."

 

[OzSpen]

Like I said Oz it is a joy when Christian women support Christian men, and When Christian Men support Christian women.

In my country, the Salvation Army has a more noticeable presence of Salvation Army Corps (churches) than I saw when we were living in the USA. I've heard a number of female Salvation Army officers (ordained ministers) who are outstanding preachers (sometimes better than their husbands). I've been in ministers' association meetings where the female officers have contributed substantive amounts of time and expertise to help with the work of the church in a number of cities.

I've been blessed and encouraged by these female officers. The Salvation Army would be so much poorer in Australia if it were not for the ministry of female officers in the Corps around the nation.

May this ministry of women in the Salvation Army continue with the impact it has had. Of course, it all started with the founders of the Army in the UK where Catherine Booth, William Booth's wife, was so active as an evangelist.

Photo of Catherine Booth, co-founder of the Salvation Army (courtesy Wikipedia)

 

[OzSpen]

My article on the subject...

This article will explain why women cannot be Pastors in a local church. Please understand this article is not against women, rather it is simply Biblical truth. God has different roles for both man and woman that we must obey.

1 Timothy 2:11 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

This verse teaches that a woman should be meek, quiet (1 Peter 3:4) and not usurp authority over the man in the home because he is the leader (1 Cor. 11:3). It goes on to say that the reason for this is because Eve was made for Adam, not the other way around. Eve was his help meet for Adam (Genesis 2:18) and is commanded to submit to him (Ephesians 5:22, Colossians 3:18). Women are also more easily deceived compared to men.

1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

The context of these verses is talking about speaking in tongues. Women were not aloud to speak in tongues when the Jewish signs were still present. Most of the churches that speak in tongues today will have women speaking in tongues also, which shows that not only are they liars, but they do not even obey the rules of speaking in tongues. The gift of tongues then were used to preach in a different language. That being said, these verses prove that women cannot be Pastors because in doing so, they have to usurp authority over males in the church, which is strictly against scripture.

However, this does not mean a woman cannot speak at all in church. Only that a woman cannot be in a position that deals with teaching or having authority over grown men. Women are aloud to testify and sing in church.

Psalms 107:2 "Let the redeemed of the LORD say so, whom he hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy;"

Psalms 150:6 "Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD."

Women are also aloud to teach younger women and and children. Doing this does not usurp authority over men.

Titus 2:3 "The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,"

Women can teach the Bible to a man outside of the church, but only if her husband is present with her.

Acts 18:26 "And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly."

The Bible teaches that a Bishop, which is a Pastor has to be the husband(male) of one wife. A woman cannot hold the position of a Pastor or even a Deacon (1 Timothy 3:12).

1 Timothy 3:2 "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;"

Some will argue that Phebe in Romans 16:1 was a deaconess, but this is not true. The Bible says that she was a "servant". The Greek word used here is not feminine, rather neutral. There is not one Greek lexicon anywhere that says "deaconess". There is no way that she could of been a deaconess because she was not the husband of one wife (1 Timothy 3:12).

Romans 16:1 "I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:"

Not only does the Bible forbid women Pastors, Deacons and Preachers, but it also says that when a woman is the leader of a nation, apostasy and judgment is connected. That being said we should not have a woman President.

Isaiah 3:12 "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths."

Why aren't you following the content of the OP?

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Some will argue that Phebe in Romans 16:1 was a deaconess, but this is not true. The Bible says that she was a "servant". The Greek word used here is not feminine, rather neutral. There is not one Greek lexicon anywhere that says "deaconess". There is no way that she could of been a deaconess because she was not the husband of one wife (1 Timothy 3:12).

I partially agree. The Greek word διάκονος used in Romans 16:1, has two basic meanings:

1. An intermediary in a transaction

2. A person who accomplishes tasks for a superior

It also came to be used more specifically as a person who accomplishes tasks for the elders of a Christian congregation. Paul wrote his epistle to the Romans no later than the year 58, and we have no evidence that the word was used as early as that with the more specific meaning. Therefore, there is no evidence that Phoebe was a deaconess or any other kind of church official—she was simply a servant of the church at Cenchreae. The important point, however, is that Romans 16:1-2 shows that although Paul clearly recognized that men and women have different tasks and responsibilities in the church, he also clearly recognized that men and women are of equal status in the mind of God—and should be in our minds as well. In the church, one’s task and responsibility and one’s status are two very different things. One’s task and responsibility in the church is to be determined by God; one status in the church is determined by men—and far too often, unfairly so.

 

[Bluelion]

In looking at this topic a bit more,does anyone here realize that the passage in Timothy says nothing about Church?

The context is a generalisation :
1 Timothy: 2. 1. I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2. For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4. Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6. Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 7. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. 8. I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. 9. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10. But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Where does this state the role of a woman not to teach is proprietary to the Church?

If this is the case then Men who allow wives to work in jobs such as school teachers or any place that men of lower stature work,then they are in violation of this principle.

The key word Brother usurp authority. that means to act on ones own behalf and in ones on self interest. I think we could agree men should not do this either. Does it any where say God can not speak through a woman or appoint a woman? Now If you agree God can speak through a woman, would not any man be under that authority. so Is it the authority of men or women? But Man has no authority in church neither does woman The authority is Jesus who is the Head and high priest. I know Brother you delight in truth, I know you can see i speak the truth.

 

[Bluelion]

ok I tried to avoid this now I am going to start debating sense some people have such an issue with a kind word to my Sisters. just announcing you can debate and I will address it. Thank you oz for trying to re-frame, i don't know how long this thread will be open, but lets tackle it again shall we.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

In my country, the Salvation Army has a more noticeable presence of Salvation Army Corps (churches) than I saw when we were living in the USA. I've heard a number of female Salvation Army officers (ordained ministers) who are outstanding preachers (sometimes better than their husbands). I've been in ministers' association meetings where the female officers have contributed substantive amounts of time and expertise to help with the work of the church in a number of cities.

This has no relevance whatsoever to the fact that, in the New Testament, God forbids women to function as pastors of a Church.

I've been blessed and encouraged by these female officers. The Salvation Army would be so much poorer in Australia if it were not for the ministry of female officers in the Corps around the nation.

I have been greatly blessed and encouraged by a Roman Catholic Nun, but that does not qualify her to be a pastor—and, of course, she knows better than to disobey God.

 

[OzSpen]

PrincetonGuy,

This has no relevance whatsoever to the fact that, in the New Testament, God forbids women to function as pastors of a Church.

I have been greatly blessed and encouraged by a Roman Catholic Nun, but that does not qualify her to be a pastor—and, of course, she knows better than to disobey God.

The fact is that I was trying to get back on track with the OP but you wouldn't agree to that.

The female Salvation Army officers who have been a blessing to me have absolute relevance to the OP. But you avoid the content of the OP to present a red herring logical fallacy.

In this case, you want to make your hermeneutics correct and mine wrong. We have no basis for a discussion when you do this as it amounts to begging the question (circular reasoning) logical fallacy. Logical discussion is impossible when you take this tack.

Oz

 

[PrincetonGuy]

ok I tried to avoid this now I am going to start debating sense some people have such an issue with a kind word to my Sisters. just announcing you can debate and I will address it. Thank you oz for trying to re-frame, i don't know how long this thread will be open, but lets tackle it again shall we.

Let us all be honest here. No one in this thread has an issue with a kind word to anyone—regardless of their gender. Some people in this thread, however, have an issue with women who choose to do their own thing rather than perform the task and responsibility that God has chosen for them for the simple reason that they are not men, but women.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

How it came about that women began to preach and to usurp authority over Christian men in the Church is both an interesting and revealing story. The story begins with John Wesley and his belief that Christian theology should be based upon four things:

Scripture
Tradition
Experience
Reason

This concept is known as the Wesleyan Quadrilateral. Scripture is always of foremost importance, but according to Wesley it should never be studied apart from its historical interpretation and application. Belief in the Bible apart from the experience of it in one’s life does not constitute genuine faith—and the Christian experience must extend beyond one’s self into Christian service. Moreover, one’s beliefs must be capable of being defended in a rational manner based upon sound reasoning.

The Wesleyan Quadrilateral is the theological basis of the Methodist Church. The Salvation Army, the Church of the Nazarene, and the Pentecostal churches (of which the Assemblies of God is the largest denomination) are all outgrowths of the Methodist Church and its Wesleyan Quadrilateral.

Wesley never imagined that his Quadrilateral would be so severely abused as to “justify” women serving as elders in the Church, but once personal Christian experience was allowed to have a voice in the formation of theology, it rapidly began to take dominance over Scripture. In 1859, Catherine Booth (a co-founder of the Salvation Army) wrote and published a pamphlet entitled, “Female Ministry: Woman’s Right to Preach the Gospel.” This pamphlet was written in defense of her new role model, the American Wesleyan revivalist Phoebe Palmer who, with her husband Walter, moved to the United Kingdom in 1859 where they lived and preached for several years—with Phoebe as the dominant partner.

Along with experience, reason also came to be severely abused, and women argued vehemently from reason (and by taking Scriptures out of context) in support of their new and novel doctrine. Most unfortunately, the fourth part of the Quadrilateral, tradition, was brushed aside.

Human beings have shown themselves to be capable of persuading themselves to believe almost anything—including the belief that their new and novel doctrines really are taught in the Bible.

 

[OzSpen]

PrincetonGuy,

Let us all be honest here. No one in this thread has an issue with a kind word to anyone—regardless of their gender. Some people in this thread, however, have an issue with women who choose to do their own thing rather than perform the task and responsibility that God has chosen for them for the simple reason that they are not men, but women.

That's a straw man argument.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

PrincetonGuy,



The fact is that I was trying to get back on track with the OP but you wouldn't agree to that.

The female Salvation Army officers who have been a blessing to me have absolute relevance to the OP. But you avoid the content of the OP to present a red herring logical fallacy.

In this case, you want to make your hermeneutics correct and mine wrong. We have no basis for a discussion when you do this as it amounts to begging the question (circular reasoning) logical fallacy. Logical discussion is impossible when you take this tack.

Oz

This has no relevance whatsoever to the fact that, in the New Testament, God forbids women to function as pastors of a Church.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

PrincetonGuy,

That's a straw man argument.

No, it is not!

 

[Bluelion]

My article on the subject...

This article will explain why women cannot be Pastors in a local church. Please understand this article is not against women, rather it is simply Biblical truth. God has different roles for both man and woman that we must obey.

1 Timothy 2:11 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

This verse teaches that a woman should be meek, quiet (1 Peter 3:4) and not usurp authority over the man in the home because he is the leader (1 Cor. 11:3). It goes on to say that the reason for this is because Eve was made for Adam, not the other way around. Eve was his help meet for Adam (Genesis 2:18) and is commanded to submit to him (Ephesians 5:22, Colossians 3:18). Women are also more easily deceived compared to men.

1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

The context of these verses is talking about speaking in tongues. Women were not aloud to speak in tongues when the Jewish signs were still present. Most of the churches that speak in tongues today will have women speaking in tongues also, which shows that not only are they liars, but they do not even obey the rules of speaking in tongues. The gift of tongues then were used to preach in a different language. That being said, these verses prove that women cannot be Pastors because in doing so, they have to usurp authority over males in the church, which is strictly against scripture.

However, this does not mean a woman cannot speak at all in church. Only that a woman cannot be in a position that deals with teaching or having authority over grown men. Women are aloud to testify and sing in church.

Psalms 107:2 "Let the redeemed of the LORD say so, whom he hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy;"

Psalms 150:6 "Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD."

Women are also aloud to teach younger women and and children. Doing this does not usurp authority over men.

Titus 2:3 "The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,"

Women can teach the Bible to a man outside of the church, but only if her husband is present with her.

Acts 18:26 "And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly."

The Bible teaches that a Bishop, which is a Pastor has to be the husband(male) of one wife. A woman cannot hold the position of a Pastor or even a Deacon (1 Timothy 3:12).

1 Timothy 3:2 "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;"

Some will argue that Phebe in Romans 16:1 was a deaconess, but this is not true. The Bible says that she was a "servant". The Greek word used here is not feminine, rather neutral. There is not one Greek lexicon anywhere that says "deaconess". There is no way that she could of been a deaconess because she was not the husband of one wife (1 Timothy 3:12).

Romans 16:1 "I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:"

Not only does the Bible forbid women Pastors, Deacons and Preachers, but it also says that when a woman is the leader of a nation, apostasy and judgment is connected. That being said we should not have a woman President.

Isaiah 3:12 "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths."

K the key word is usurp Authority do you understand what that word means? It means to take by force or act on ones behalf or self interest, Men should not do this same with Women.

God bless my Sisters you read God's word and realize when God says man should not do this He is speaking of woman to, but some men when God said women should not do this can not see it applies to men as well.

back to the poster, did you just say women are more likely to be deceived than man? Sorry but that shows bias and is untrue. I am a man and I have been deceived to the point I worshiped false gods, in fact you will find through out the Bible and history man has been deceived into worshiping false God's which are not real and not alive and have no power. Abraham worshiped the moon god. That is not what Paul meant when he wrote that, women are not more likely to be deceived. oh you do not realize your soul is in trouble. Eve battled satan, you are inviting the same temptation and you will fail in your current mind set as Eve did. Adam did not battle satan but was tempted by Eve. He was not deceived by Eve, he very well would have been by satan, for he devices men to this day to their death just as he did with Eve.

Have you ever battled satan? no? Well I have many many times, and it is not easy and I would have lost every time if not for Jesus. Man is not above an angel even the fallen ones, but a Son of God is very much above the fallen angels even God's Angels at times because Jesus lives in us and speaks through us. Repent my friend from your foolishness of youth.

If you go down this road there is much suffering ahead of you. there is arrogance in youth but not only in youth, repent, seek out humbleness.

1 Cor Paul was speaking of gossiping in church, The women had an issue and it is still common today of using church for a social gathering a time of gossiping. That is why he said women but men should not do it either.

You pull verse out of context to say your right. That is not how it works, we do not bend The Word to promote our views, we are taught them by God to see the truth. You my friend are very wrong.

 

[Bluelion]

Let us all be honest here. No one in this thread has an issue with a kind word to anyone—regardless of their gender. Some people in this thread, however, have an issue with women who choose to do their own thing rather than perform the task and responsibility that God has chosen for them for the simple reason that they are not men, but women.

Does God not say He will show mercy on who He will? Who are you to tell God he can not use a woman. Women have been used through out the Bible Deborah being one of the greats. Who are you to stand in the way of a Holy Woman of God. The fact you are a man? that does not grant you power. You certainly have no power over me unless given to you from above, and a Woman certainly has power over you if given by God.

 

[Bluelion]

double

 

[Bluelion]

triple

 

[OzSpen]

No, it is not!

It was a straw man because the OP was to encourage women in ministry. What did you do? You raised a completely different topic with this kind of statement.

Let us all be honest here. No one in this thread has an issue with a kind word to anyone—regardless of their gender. Some people in this thread, however, have an issue with women who choose to do their own thing rather than perform the task and responsibility that God has chosen for them for the simple reason that they are not men, but women.

In case you've forgotten, here is a link to the meaning of a straw man logical fallacy.

 

[OzSpen]

No, it is not!

It was a straw man because the OP was to encourage women in ministry. What did you do? You created a distorted version of the OP, thus creating a straw man fallacy with this kind of emphasis.

Let us all be honest here. No one in this thread has an issue with a kind word to anyone—regardless of their gender. Some people in this thread, however, have an issue with women who choose to do their own thing rather than perform the task and responsibility that God has chosen for them for the simple reason that they are not men, but women.

In case you've forgotten, here is a link to the meaning of a straw man logical fallacy.

 

[Bluelion]

i believe God just showed me this. What Paul meant by Eve was deceived but Adam was not. He was speaking of how satan turns women into temptress. Paul is saying protect our Sisters do not let satan use them in this way or against you. He is not saying women can not preach.

Adam did not battle satan he was tempted by Eve he knew satan was using her to tempt him but he gave in to not be separated from her. Paul is saying do not do what Adam did. don't let satan use your Sisters against you to sin against God.


Now that is some truth right there.