No One Man Pastor ministry over all

[Open Heart]

no a pagan temple has nothing to do with the living body of Christ the church.

I guess you don't believe in conversion.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Good heavens! Timothy was not an apostle.

Good heavens yes he was

"Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians...Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ." 1 Thessalonians 1:1, and 2:6

 

[Open Heart]

LoveOfTruth, I have no problems expressing my gifts while being under the authority of my pastor (an ordained presbyter/priest)

 

[LoveofTruth]

I guess you don't believe in conversion.

conversion of the soul yes, not making a man made religious pagan temple into the living body of Christ the church, never

 

[LoveofTruth]

LoveOfTruth, I have no problems expressing my gifts while being under the authority of my pastor (an ordained presbyter/priest)

you are not under the authority of a man that is a wrong view Jesus rebuked that idea in scripture

"
But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:" Matthew 20:25-27

this is exactly how many have their exalted leader over them

The authority is in the word of God and as they speak the word of God and live it.

and we never see a one man pastor over a church in authority in the NT. We do however see Diotrephes loving the preeminance and not receiving the brothers and kicking them out of the church, John said not to foolow such men. Paul also warned of men who exalt themsleves in 2Cor 11 and Peter said not as Lords over others

 

[LoveofTruth]

you are not under the authority of a man that is a wrong view Jesus rebuked that idea in scripture

"
But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:" Matthew 20:25-27

this is exactly how many have their exalted leader over them

The authority is in the word of God and as they speak the word of God and live it.

and we never see a one man pastor over a church in authority in the NT. We do however see Diotrephes loving the preeminance and not receiving the brothers and kicking them out of the church, John said not to foolow such men. Paul also warned of men who exalt themsleves in 2Cor 11 and Peter said not as Lords over others

LoveOfTruth, I have no problems expressing my gifts while being under the authority of my pastor (an ordained presbyter/priest)

also JOhn said we have no need that any man teach us the anointing teaches us all things, what do you think this verse means? By the way he wrote that about those that were seducing them 1 John 2:26,27

 

[Open Heart]

there is no teaching authority...authority is when they speak the word of God and their example of their faith in their walk. Authority is a whole different post. I may have to post a study on the true and false authority today in the church

Obviously you didn't read my quote from Acts 6 or you wouldn't say this.

 

[Open Heart]

no the word church in the bible is the body of Christ and the house of God which house ar we made up of living stones. This is very basic in scripture.

actually the word church in the NT is mostly used to indicate institutional church, i.e. the Church at Rome, the Church at Antioch, etc.

 

[LoveofTruth]

LoveOfTruth, I have no problems expressing my gifts while being under the authority of my pastor (an ordained presbyter/priest)

every believer should share their gifts freely at any time as they gather, and not be under the authority of a man while doing it. They are accountable to God. And if they say something wrong others will judge and correct them. This is scriptural edification , we see examples of this "let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge" 1 Cor 14.

 

[LoveofTruth]

actually the word church in the NT is mostly used to indicate institutional church, i.e. the Church at Rome, the Church at Antioch, etc.

No the word church is used for the body of Christ, this is the church that Jesus is building. And he builds his church from within believers.

the church is not a man made religious building or institution or organization that registers with the government for tax breaks etc

 

[LoveofTruth]

"But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:" Galatians 2:6

here we notice that Paul did not put certain men in their person obove others, and said God respects no mans person

He said similar here,

"
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation:" Romans 12:3-8

Paul also rebuked and warned against such exalted roles over the saints

"For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face." 2 Corinthians 11:19, 20

and he said,

"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears." Acts 20:29-31

 

[Open Heart]

No you have a few apostolic workers help to set in order the 400 people into their homes and have many churches in the house. This order was Gods plan all along.

You can't prove that from scripture. All you get from scripture is that the new churches (meaning small numbers of people) met in home churches. The Church in Jerusalem was so large it couldn't meet in a home, but met in the courtyard of the temple. Rome had a church meeting in a warehouse, as recorded by archeology. So Christians began meeting in public places pretty soon.

As to the construction of church buildings, this came later when the church was more grounded.

Unless claims for recent discoveries of early Christian meeting places are confirmed, the earliest building certainly devoted to Christian use is at Dura Europos on the Euphrates River in eastern Roman Syria. It was a house that came into Christian possession and was remodeled in the 240s. Two rooms were combined to form the assembly room, and another room became a baptistery—the only room decorated with pictures. Dura was destroyed by the Sassanian Persians in 256, so the house's use as a church was short-lived.

The church's house at Dura represents an intermediate stage between meeting in members' houses or other suitable places, and constructing buildings specifically for church meetings. There are literary references to separate church buildings from the end of the second century and through the third century, but it is uncertain whether these were existing structures remodeled for church use, like the house at Dura, or new constructions. We have archaeological evidence of halls being built for church meetings at the end of the third and beginning of the fourth century.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/asktheexpert/ask_churchbuildings.html​

 

[LoveofTruth]

Obviously you didn't read my quote from Acts 6 or you wouldn't say this.

they simply appointed some for the daily ministration of others. This was a practical need. This does not set up men over others in authority. If an elder speaks Gods truth to others and the word of God moves them, then they will be following Christ word from whoever it is spoken.

 

[Open Heart]

No the word church is used for the body of Christ, this is the church that Jesus is building. And he builds his church from within believers.

You are doing the same thing I did on another thread. A scholar there told me this was called NDD:

NDD stands for "Narrow Definition Disorder." We all have this from time to time and it is curable... NDD is when we force one meaning on a word, when our definitions are too narrow.

IOW NDD is when you think that "church" has only one definition.

 

[Open Heart]

conversion of the soul yes, not making a man made religious pagan temple into the living body of Christ the church, never

I don't think it's any different from converting a business address (the religion of money) into a church. Tons of non-denominationals do that.

 

[LoveofTruth]

You can't prove that from scripture. All you get from scripture is that the new churches (meaning small numbers of people) met in home churches. The Church in Jerusalem was so large it couldn't meet in a home, but met in the courtyard of the temple. Rome had a church meeting in a warehouse, as recorded by archeology. So Christians began meeting in public places pretty soon.

As to the construction of church buildings, this came later when the church was more grounded.

Unless claims for recent discoveries of early Christian meeting places are confirmed, the earliest building certainly devoted to Christian use is at Dura Europos on the Euphrates River in eastern Roman Syria. It was a house that came into Christian possession and was remodeled in the 240s. Two rooms were combined to form the assembly room, and another room became a baptistery—the only room decorated with pictures. Dura was destroyed by the Sassanian Persians in 256, so the house's use as a church was short-lived.

The church's house at Dura represents an intermediate stage between meeting in members' houses or other suitable places, and constructing buildings specifically for church meetings. There are literary references to separate church buildings from the end of the second century and through the third century, but it is uncertain whether these were existing structures remodeled for church use, like the house at Dura, or new constructions. We have archaeological evidence of halls being built for church meetings at the end of the third and beginning of the fourth century.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/asktheexpert/ask_churchbuildings.html​

wrong again.

Yes we see the Paul and Timothy as apostles set in order things that are lacking in the churches and others as well. Jesus also told the apostle to go into a city and find a house that was worthy and where the peace would remain, and to stay there. This would have taught the apostle how to plant churches. Jesus also commanded the believers to meet in a house on pentecost in the upper room.

and you keep using the words "church buildings". this is wrong and unbiblical. Jesus came to build his church and he does this as the head effectually working in the measure of every part to make increase of the body unto the edifying [ building up as a housebuilder] of itself in love.

Paul taught the same things and the same way of planting churches to every church everywhere. he even rebuked the Corinthians for thinking they could do differently. remember the letters to the churches we read are some 50 years, 60 years or older after Christ death, and they were still meeting in homes. This went for about 300 years yes there is one record of a home having the walls knocked out to make a bit more room. But this was still in homes. Constantine changed everything and he was a pagan emperor influenced by pagan ideas as history shows clearly.

We see clearly that God commands all believers to use their gifts and to not hinder this 1 Cor 14;26-38. If men do not obey this command they are ignorant and should not be received. So if believers are swayed to meet in large pagan temple type structures and call them the church. This immediately displaces the functioning of the church and redefines what a church is. This quenches the spirit in the body from mutual edification. And to make it worse they set a one man over all to cntrol everyone and act as if the beleivrs do need a man to teach them and be the authority and have dominion over them. All contrary to scripture and the apostles doctrine and set order and commands from God.

 

[LoveofTruth]

You are doing the same thing I did on another thread. A scholar there told me this was called NDD:
IOW NDD is when you think that "church" has only one definition.

No i dont. I use the word as scripture defines it. the word ecclessia ( church) had transitions through time it was spelled differently way back etc. But the meaning of Christ church that he is building is different than man would use. For example believers are the temple of God. But the word temple refers to a pagan religious structure. even when Israel wanted to build a temple, they wanted to pattern themselves after the other nations and also have a king over them like the other nations. God warned them about having a king over them and said they would stop listening to him . And God said what house will ye build me the most high dwelleth not in temples made with hands.

But I can use the word temple with the spiritual and scriptural understanding as the body of Christ. Yet if you ask a pagan what a temple is they would say a religious building. The same with a church, the church is the body of Christ,. But if you asked a Greek what the word ecclessia ( church) means they would say a political gathering of state to make decisions etc. This is not the church Jesus is making even though there are some similarities. So i use the word church and define it exactly as the apostles meant it to be defined and Jesus as well.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I don't think it's any different from converting a business address (the religion of money) into a church. Tons of non-denominationals do that.

??? what?

nothing is converted into a church. The church is the body of Christ and the Lord added to the church people who were saved. The church is the called out assembly. This assembly is made of living stones a spiritual house and the body of Christ plain and simple, as scripture defines it. But man made traditions over the centuries have blurred this understanding to the point where we have a man made building of brick and morter being called the church

 

[Open Heart]

you are not under the authority of a man that is a wrong view Jesus rebuked that idea in scripture

Paul placed Timothy in authority over the Church at Ephesus. He instructs Timothy, "Command and teach these things." (1 Tim 4:11)

 

[Open Heart]

also JOhn said we have no need that any man teach us the anointing teaches us all things, what do you think this verse means? By the way he wrote that about those that were seducing them 1 John 2:26,27

And yet in Acts 6 (which I quoted) the 12 disciples granted some of their teaching authority and responsibility onto the seven men they ordained. Obviously they didn't think it wrong to have clergy in charge of laity.