(MOVED) Where was God/Jesus when I needed them?

[Truthearthdefender]

And why do you bet that "if there was one [an intelligent designer], it is nothing like the God portrayed in the Bible"?

Why are you so against the idea of a Holy God as defined in the Christian Bible?

Why do you seem to single this particular Bible (and its teachings) out, and say that THIS one can't be the right one?

Do you have any evidence that says that what the Christian Bible isn't true?

As for whether or not intelligent design was a thing, consider this:

The "Simple Cell", that is, the most basic living organism, the smallest living creature, is made up of thousands of almost robotic-like parts that work in tandem. If you take ANY of these parts away, the thing dies and cannot live. It is the simplest living thing that can possibly exist.

How did it come to be? Did it assemble from amino acids? No, I don't think so, because many of them cannot be sustained outside of a cell. How did the cell come to develop the ability to replicate itself? Ever studied DNA before? It's basically a very complex data file system that can replicate itself, it repairs itself, and it contains vast quantities of data that the organism requires to live.

Are you trying to tell me that this all just...... came to be, snap, out of the blue? That somehow a bunch of non-living goop magically transformed into living cells that have thousands of working parts? Put a single-cell organism under the microscope (a really powerful microscope) and you'll see that even its parts almost look like robots. The little "hairs" that it uses to move around, have parts that almost look like something men have built:

You tell me that this just "came to be", and wasn't designed intelligently. That picture is of a flagella like the ones found in many single-cell organisms, such as bacteria. Now before you say "Oh, that's just an artist's rendition", well...

There's another one.

I just can't sit here and say that there's any doubts in my mind whatsoever that this was designed intelligently.

I think that a good number of scientists are gravitating away from the theory of randomness which is about as unsound a scientific theory as one can have. As far as them accepting "Intelligent Design" with the biases that are favored and emphasised by apologists... not so much... I have heard Intelligent Design in the sense that the Fibonacci sequence and "The Flower of Life" aka Sacred Geometry illustrate and quantum scientists are leaning toward intelligent design... but instead of putting God behind the equation they state that there is a mathematical consistency in the design of all things... a much more scientifically sound theory than randomness that created intricately complex regenerating lifeforms.

I may be making absolutely no sense... but I had a great time doing it

 

[Bluecheese]

And why do you bet that "if there was one [an intelligent designer], it is nothing like the God portrayed in the Bible"?

Why are you so against the idea of a Holy God as defined in the Christian Bible?

Why do you seem to single this particular Bible (and its teachings) out, and say that THIS one can't be the right one?

Do you have any evidence that says that what the Christian Bible isn't true?

As for whether or not intelligent design was a thing, consider this:

The "Simple Cell", that is, the most basic living organism, the smallest living creature, is made up of thousands of almost robotic-like parts that work in tandem. If you take ANY of these parts away, the thing dies and cannot live. It is the simplest living thing that can possibly exist.

How did it come to be? Did it assemble from amino acids? No, I don't think so, because many of them cannot be sustained outside of a cell. How did the cell come to develop the ability to replicate itself? Ever studied DNA before? It's basically a very complex data file system that can replicate itself, it repairs itself, and it contains vast quantities of data that the organism requires to live.

Are you trying to tell me that this all just...... came to be, snap, out of the blue? That somehow a bunch of non-living goop magically transformed into living cells that have thousands of working parts? Put a single-cell organism under the microscope (a really powerful microscope) and you'll see that even its parts almost look like robots. The little "hairs" that it uses to move around, have parts that almost look like something men have built:

You tell me that this just "came to be", and wasn't designed intelligently. That picture is of a flagella like the ones found in many single-cell organisms, such as bacteria. Now before you say "Oh, that's just an artist's rendition", well...

There's another one.

I just can't sit here and say that there's any doubts in my mind whatsoever that this was designed intelligently.

The Biblical stories read like a not so good fairy tale and as there is no evidence to support the 'truth' of them that is what I believe them to be.

 

[Xalith]

The Biblical stories read like a not so good fairy tale and as there is no evidence to support the 'truth' of them that is what I believe them to be.

I can point out some evidence, if you want...

How about Jesus being predicted down to the very year He came, 500+ years before He came? Take a look at Daniel 9:25:

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

So... the angel (Gabriel) tells Daniel the prophet that there shall be "69 weeks" from the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the arrival of the Messiah.

Okay, when the commandment happen? According to wikipedia's "Artaxerxes I of Persia" entry...

In Artaxerxes' 20th year (445 BC),[13][14][15] Nehemiah, the king's cupbearer, apparently was also a friend of the king as in that year Artaxerxes inquired after Nehemiah's sadness. Nehemiah related to him the plight of the Jewish people and that the city of Jerusalem was undefended. The king sent Nehemiah to Jerusalem, 14 March 445 B.C,[16] with letters of safe passage to the governors in Trans-Euphrates, and to Asaph, keeper of the royal forests, to make beams for the citadel by the Temple and to rebuild the city walls.[17]

We know these dates, because the Persians were meticulous record-keepers.

Now, what exactly is a "week"? Well, in Jewish culture, they have a week of days, a week of weeks, and a week of years. Gabriel was talking about weeks of years. 69x7 = 483.

HOWEVER, Jews have a 360-day calendar. You cannot assume a 365-day calendar, because Gabriel gave this prophecy to a Jew. So you would then need to take that 483 years and multiply it by 360 to get how many days (173880) and then divide that by 365 to get a Gregorian measure (476 years and 140 days), but let's not forget about Leap Years (there are 119 Leap Years in 476 years, so 140-119 = 21).

So, end result, we end up with 476 years and 21 days.

So, back to that date of March 14th, 445BC (we can write that as -445AD).

-445 + 476 = 31. Now, since there is no 0 AD (it goes from 1 BC to 1 AD), we add +1 to make it 32.

March 14th + 21 days = April 4th.

Now, Year 32 was a Leap Year that began on Tuesday, and if you go to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leap_year_starting_on_Tuesday, you will notice that April 4th is a Friday.

You might also notice that the Bible says that Jesus entered Jerusalem on a Friday (it doesn't actually say Friday, but it DOES say the day before the Sabbath which is Saturday) while riding a donkey, just before Passover. Well, when's Passover? Depending on the year, it can happen anywhere between first and last week of April.

Using http://www.staff.science.uu.nl/~gent0113/easter/eastercalculator.htm , and checking the box that says "Show Gregorian Dates before 1583" and then inputting 32AD in, you will find that yes, Passover did indeed begin on April 5th (it actually starts on Sundown Friday, Jews begin their new days at Sundown).

So..... the Bible managed to predict the exact date that Jesus would enter Jerusalem more than 500 years before it actually happened. The book of Daniel was written long, long before 32AD (you can confirm this even at secular sites), in fact it was written before Artaxerxes who ruled in the low 400s BC.

How many "fairy tale" writers do you think could predict something 500 years in advance down to the specific day? Not only did the book of Daniel predict Jesus entering Jerusalem, but it also predicted that the King of Persia would give the order to rebuild not only the Temple, but also the Walls and Streets thereof.

 

[Bluecheese]

None of that is verifiable evidence.

It is quite possible the gospel writers concocted the life of Jesus to fit in with so called prophesies! If Jesus was the prophesied 'messiah' why didn't most of the Jews recognise him as such?

 

[Xalith]

None of that is verifiable evidence.

Everything I posted above came from, or is verified by secular sources.

It is quite possible the gospel writers concocted the life of Jesus to fit in with so called prophesies! If Jesus was the prophesied 'messiah' why didn't most of the Jews recognise him as such?

Okay, so some guy somewhere around 500 BC writes a book that says "An Angel came to me and said that Jerusalem is about to be rebuilt, and 69 weeks of years later, the messiah will come" and the king, 50+ years later, magically decides to send people to rebuild Jerusalem, "just to fit in with prophecy" in a religion that he didn't even believe in? lol. The Kings of Persia was not a Jew, nor did they follow Judaism. They had respect off-and-on for the Jewish God, they knew of Him, but I don't think they actively worshipped him, because they still had idols of their own.

And then, said 69 weeks of years later, they decide to announce Jesus as the Messiah just to keep in line with Daniel? Were they counting the years since Artaxerxes sent forth the command to rebuild Jerusalem? They magically got it down to the very day? And who exactly was doing this? The Pharisees who didn't even believe Jesus was real? And how did they know Jerusalem would still be standing, 500 years later? You know how many times Jerusalem had been raided, sacked, and razed over the centuries? You're not going to tell me that some guys 483 years later sat down and did the math and had access to Persian records and said "Oh, wait, this is the year! Better get someone on a donkey the day before Passover and crucify him!" ... lol. You know how ridiculous that sounds? Now, obviously, Jesus knew, because you know, He's the Son of God... of course He knew...

As for why the Jews rejected Jesus, the Bible explains why (though not in a direct way): They had become blinded by Pride. They took pride in their knowledge of Scripture, they invented lots of their own doctrines and rules, they forced people to follow these rules, but many of them did not follow their own rules. They had become proud, puffed up, but most of all, uncharitable and unforgiving which is the exact opposite that the God they claimed to worship is.

They claimed to worship Him, but they were just going through the motions, and Jesus knew this and called them out on it several times and eventually cursed them with spiritual blindness. He then showered His gifts on the Gentiles, and that persists to this day. HOWEVER, He said "I'll come back the day all of you proclaim, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD'". So... His Second Coming will be when Israel is pushed into a corner and they cry out to Jesus to come and save them..... and He will. Valiantly and with much glory.

 

[Bluecheese]

Well we will have to agree to differ on this topic, no problem.

 

[rockytopva]

There is much profit in having ones heart warmed and enlightened by the Holy Spirit. In May 1738, clergyman John Wesley attended a meeting of the Moravians in Aldersgate Street. While attending the meeting, he underwent a profound religious experience, describing it in his journal as thus:

"In the evening I went unwillingly to a society in Aldersgate Street, where one was reading Luther's preface to the Epistle to the Romans. About a quarter to nine, while he was describing the change which God works in the heart through faith in Christ, I felt my heart strangely warmed. I felt I did trust in Christ, Christ alone for salvation, and an assurance was given me that he had taken away my sins, even mine and saved me from the law of sin and death."

It is of most profit to have the light and energies of God illuminate and warm the interior man. There have been those in history who have not had this experience...

"You know, they are fooling us, there is no God… all this talk about God is sheer nonsense." - Joseph Stalin to a boyhood friend

If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma
Mental E/c2 - Our brains output is a result of E/c2
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, virtue, compassion, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

If E = mc2 then one can divide and say that m = E/c2. Therefore all of creation came into existence with the Fathers great Energy and Light... In which there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2... The sun is E/c2 in the form of plasma... The Earth is cooled E/c2.
Mental E/c2... Our ability to think comes from E/c2
Spiritual E/c2... Energy (Virtue, Motivation, Love) / c2 (Faith, Hope, Charity, Joy)

The foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. - 1 Corinthians 1:25

Yes... Joseph Stalin was right... The power of God is non-sense...There is no intellectual value to virtue, love, faith, hope, charity, and joy. As darkness is the opposite of light so the opposite of virtue, love, faith, hope, charity, and joy is vice, hate, fear, depression, greed, and sorrow.

It is the presence of the Spiritual E/c2 that is Christianities greatest friend. And its powers brought back Christianity to the Russian people. If the Spiritual E/c2 is not present there is little we can do to help those lost in unbelief.

 

[Xalith]

Well we will have to agree to differ on this topic, no problem.

If that's what you really really want. It seems you are more dead-set in disproving God (which is futile, nobody has ever succeeded at that), more than actually looking for enlightenment or hope. I would actually have to ask...

"For what purpose did you actually post this thread?"

Was it to discourage people who do believe? Or were you, deep down, hoping that someone would prove that God does exist and give you a reason to believe?

I would seriously hope the latter, and I pray the latter is true. But, if it were the latter... then why do you go to such lengths, why do you strive so hard to disbelieve everything that we've said? That big long post about Daniel 9:25 that I made... I made sure to use secular sources, so that nobody could say "but that's religion!", and you still tossed it aside, without even attempting to dispute any of the points I made in that post.

If you disagree with me, that's fine... I would at least ask that you show me where you disagree, who knows, maybe you have a misconception, or maybe even I do. But you don't even give me that chance, you don't even give God that chance. You've closed your mind off (or so it seems) and are seemingly refusing to even consider what is presented to you.

I can't understand why someone would refuse to even consider it, why someone seems dead-set in their ways. That just... I can't even comprehend how that is possible, especially with something like a 500+ year old prophecy that ends up being true right down to the very day. Surely, there's got to be some kind of "maybe that IS true? Maybe I should research this? Maybe I should ask questions? Can I disprove this?" ... but no, that didn't happen.

*Whoosh*, you just brushed it aside with nary a thought, saying "It's wrong." without explaining why.

I'm not attacking you, I don't hate you, I'm merely sad that you passed up the opportunity to at least explore the possibility. It is almost as if you don't want God to exist, therefore you block out every possibility that He might exist. I'm highly curious as to why... are you angry with Him because of your childhood? Oh, if you only knew the truth of how things work... if you knew what lengths He went to, for you (and for everybody else too). If only you could at least consider what we have to say....

I pray that He'd poke your spirit to make you pause and think about it, for at least a moment. I would very much like the chance to at least attempt to teach you actual, real Christian beliefs. Not everybody who claims to know Him really do, and some things you've heard is wrong, and the Bible is very easy to misunderstand.

 

[Bluecheese]

When the deity is willing to prove to the whole world, in a totally undeniable way that he exists then I will believe. But that is highly unlikely to happen, making belief a matter of faith is very hit and miss.

 

[rockytopva]

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

There may be as many as 700 trillion cells in a human body, all working together for the good of a functioning body. Every square inch of skin contains...

*11 miles of blood vessels
*650 sweat glands
*60,000 Melanin making cells for color
*1,000 nerve endings

We are an intricately designed creation! Melanin is a pigment found throughout the body, including the eyes, brain, hair and skin. There are two main varieties: the rarer pheomelanin -- with a reddish-yellow color -- and the more common eumelanin, which varies from dark brown to black. It primarily functions as an absorber of ultraviolet light, which is beneficial, but it also contributes to melanoma, a deadly form of skin cancer as well.

There is a lot of organic chemistry that occurs to make skin and hair color! All designed by a great orgainic chemist in which we Christians call God the Father.

What do you think directed the Melanin to color our hair and skin?

 

[Bluecheese]

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. - Psalm 19:1

There may be as many as 700 trillion cells in a human body, all working together for the good of a functioning body. Every square inch of skin contains...

*11 miles of blood vessels
*650 sweat glands
*60,000 Melanin making cells for color
*1,000 nerve endings

We are an intricately designed creation! Melanin is a pigment found throughout the body, including the eyes, brain, hair and skin. There are two main varieties: the rarer pheomelanin -- with a reddish-yellow color -- and the more common eumelanin, which varies from dark brown to black. It primarily functions as an absorber of ultraviolet light, which is beneficial, but it also contributes to melanoma, a deadly form of skin cancer as well.

There is a lot of organic chemistry that occurs to make skin and hair color! All designed by a great orgainic chemist in which we Christians call God the Father.

What do you think directed the Melanin to color our hair and skin?

That is your belief to which you are entitled, but it is only a belief with not the slightest bit of evidence to substantiate it.

 

[Xalith]

That is your belief to which you are entitled, but it is only a belief with not the slightest bit of evidence to substantiate it.

But yet, there's no evidence to disprove, either.

In the end, there's this line where Science and proof stops, and your own beliefs start. You are not going to be able to know everything, and prove everything, and there's a point where you need to apply common sense and actually think for yourself on something.

Right now, you seem to be brushing everything aside going "BUT, there's NO PROOF!"

I challenge you to sit down and think about this stuff. I mean, REALLY THINK about this stuff. Don't go about it with "I must prove it" or "You must prove it", but rather "Do I really believe that this stuff can 'just happen like that'? What's the odds?"

Sit down and ask yourself things like...

1). Do I really believe that someone could write a 600+ year old prophecy and have it come true down to the day, just like that?
2). Do I really believe that simple cells that have thousands of moving parts that depend on each other just somehow formed together from a primordial goop on its own?
3). Do I really believe that there was nothing, then there was a big bang, and then there were billions of stars and planets, one of which magically having the perfect conditions for life to exist?
4). Do I really believe that DNA, being a binary data storage system, just "came to be" on its own, even though it can replicate itself, repair itself, and is far more complex and works faster than today's computers can?
5). Do I really believe that the human brain, which is far more powerful than any computer today, just happened like that (or worse, that we came from monkeys, lol)?

You really need to ask yourself, and then answer these questions honestly. Set scientific proof aside... you're not going to prove one way or the other using science. Scientists have tried and they couldn't do it. In fact, there are many Christian Scientists that became Christians, because of what they have seen in Science and they conclude that there's no way this stuff happened "on its own".

God wants us to believe by Faith. You don't have Faith where there is proof. When you board an airplane, do you say you have faith in aerodynamics? Of course not, aerodynamics has been proven to work, with the exact sciences behind it. You know it works (barring some tragedy or human error, or what-not). That's why He's not going to hand you proof until it is too late.

 

[Bluecheese]

If something isn't credible which much of the Bible doesn't appear to be, it is for the people claiming it is true to put up the evidence to support their belief, which they are unable to do.

 

[rockytopva]

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. - John 4:24

If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma
Mental E/c2 - Our brains output is a result of E/c2
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, virtue, compassion, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

It is important to note that the attributes of the spiritual light and energies are not knowledge, therefore they cannot be taught or bought. If God reveals himself to you he will do so on a spiritual basis. Your mind and body then will react to the spiritual experience that took place.

 

[Xalith]

If something isn't credible which much of the Bible doesn't appear to be, it is for the people claiming it is true to put up the evidence to support their belief, which they are unable to do.

The problem with that, is when we do... people just brush it off with the wave of their hand, and not even attempt to consider what we have to say.

At the end of the day, we try and try and try... I've posted huge novel-length posts, and all I get in response is 1-2 lines from most people (not just you), saying "bah, you're wrong." and never actually explaining why.

I did give all kinds of evidence, but people like you (not saying this to offend or be mean or to attack you) just brush it off with the wave of your hand, without even responding/replying to what was said. You didn't actually reply to each (or any, for that matter) piece of evidence, from me or any other poster in this thread, nor did you provide any sort of counter-argument as to why you think the evidence we gave isn't right, or isn't enough, or what-not.

You can't hold a one-sided debate; you can't have 1 person typing for 10 minutes+ and the other person posts a 2-liner saying "na-uh" (in a nutshell).

That's not how debates work.

You challenged us to provide evidence, which we did... which you right out ignored. I'm wondering if you really read what was posted by myself and a couple others in this thread and actually thought about it, or looked it up yourself with wiki, google, etc and did your own research. I highly doubt you did, as you didn't take much of any time to actually post your own evidence for why He doesn't exist. We gave evidence as to why He does. You didn't give any evidence as to why He doesn't.

Something doesn't sound very fair about that.

And you say "The Bible isn't credible"... but yet you don't say what parts you are referring to. How am I supposed to provide evidence to counter your arguments when you don't even make it clear what your arguments actually are?

 

[grieving]

I am 65. I have never smoked, or being near and illegal drug in my life. Naturally I drink alcohol in strict moderation. Jesus seemed very fond of his booze and not in moderation either. I dislike inappropriate content and would never indulge in it, but there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with sex in an adult consenting relationship.

I don't believe any god exists so don't communicate with one, although I do read the Bible to see if I have missed anything, which I don't believe I have.

You'll find in the Bible or anywhere else you search what you believe "faith" you'll find. "As you believe shall it come to path"

 

[grieving]

I am 65. I have never smoked, or being near and illegal drug in my life. Naturally I drink alcohol in strict moderation. Jesus seemed very fond of his booze and not in moderation either. I dislike inappropriate content and would never indulge in it, but there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with sex in an adult consenting relationship.

I don't believe any god exists so don't communicate with one, although I do read the Bible to see if I have missed anything, which I don't believe I have.

Friend I believe you have doubt... Settle your doubts before your journey!

 

[grieving]

Faith is not bestowed is a choice followed by a determination that you will believe no matter what

 

[Bluecheese]

Faith is not bestowed is a choice followed by a determination that you will believe no matter what

That is crazy!

 

[Xalith]

That is crazy!

Not any crazier than demanding evidence, and then ignoring said evidence, and not giving evidence contrary to presented evidence yourself, lol.