(MOVED) Where was God/Jesus when I needed them?
- Thread starter Bluecheese
- Start date
And again, I'd challenge you to point out which piece(s) of evidence are not verifiable, and for what reason(s), and/or what evidence YOU have to the contrary, which you did not do. I can't try to re-verify and/or explain the sources and why they are valid, if you do not tell me which piece(s) you have a problem with.
Especially since the Daniel 9:25 post I made, 90% of that is simple math and simple facts, and only required two sources.
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The Bible is no sort of evidence whatsoever, people interpret that book in all sort of crazy ways. I am of the opinion the writers of the gospels created the stories surrounding Jesus to fit in with so called prophecies from the OT!
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Except, in the post where I talked about Daniel 9:25, I used sources outside the Bible, including secular ones to verify what the Bible says.
But it is clear that you want to immediately dismiss anything presented to you, to the point I'm starting to wonder if this isn't just a giant troll thread.
You come in here, make a statement like "you don't believe in God anymore", knowing that Christians will give you evidence, and then you go "lalalala I don't hear you lalalalala" (in a nutshell) to everybody who posted evidence.
That is starting to sound like trolling to me. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've seen enough flamebait trolls to recognize the tactic.
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Because no one has produced 'evidence' that cannot be explained in a none supernatural way.
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And again, you kinda need to actually go through our posts and tell us which piece(s) of evidence you dispute and why you dispute it, instead of making a generalized message. Okay, I'll refer to Daniel 9:25, and point out facts that we know. I want you to go through this, and tell me which point(s) you dispute, and we'll go from there.
Point #1: We know that from carbon dating, and various sources in history, that Daniel lived and wrote during the time of Nebuchadnezzar II. Here's the wiki article on him: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebuchadnezzar_II . He reigned during 605 to 562 BC. This can be verified by secular history sources.
Point #2: Daniel wrote, in Daniel 9:25 in the Bible, that an Angel appeared to him and told him that there will be a call to rebuild Jerusalem (which is in ruins at this point; it was razed by the Babylonians, this information can be found from various historical sources). From that time, it shall be "69 weeks", until the Messiah comes.
Point #3: Jewish culture has weeks of days, weeks of weeks, weeks of years. The Bible does not say which was meant, however, if we take Weeks of Years, simple math (and knowledge of the Jewish Calendar), you come up with 173,880 days which is 476 years and 140 days, and there are 119 leap years in 476 years, which leaves us with 476 years and 21 days. This is all mathematical facts.
Point #4: The call to rebuild Jerusalem happened on March 14th, 445 BC. This can also be verified by Wikipedia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artaxerxes_I_of_Persia ) and other historical documents because Persians were meticulous record-keepers.
Point #5: If you apply Point #3 to Point #4 using simple Math, you get April 4th, 32 AD. (I explained this in Post #70 on Page 4)
Point #6: Using a calculator ( http://www.staff.science.uu.nl/~gent0113/easter/eastercalculator.htm ) to calculate the Passover on various years, and the fact that Year 32 was a Leap Year that started on Tuesday, we can conclude that Passover was on April 5th (but by Jewish Culture and how their days work, they start the Passover on the night of the 4th). Again, simple math.
Point #7: The Bible says that Jesus entered Jerusalem just before the Passover riding a donkey, which lines up exactly with the above.
Point #8: Pontius Pilate (the guy who gave the order for Jesus to be crucified) was believed to have presided over Judaea from AD26 to AD36 and the only historical record we have of that, is a dedication stone with his name on it. However, several historical writers over the years (contemporary scholars, writers, etc) have made mention of him, enough that the existence of Pilate is fairly widely believed. The range of AD26-36 is well within the AD32 that Daniel 9:25 points to.
Point #9: Even the Muslims agree that Jesus was a real person (they don't believe He was the Son of God, though) and He is mentioned by quite a few writers of the time. If He were just a fabrication of the Jews who decided to make up a new religion, then why did non-Jewish scholars refer to Him?
So, we come down to this:
Points #3, #5 and #6 are pure hard mathematical facts. These cannot be disputed.
Points #1 and #4 can be verified by secular historical sources.
Points #8 and #9 are backed up by various contemporary writers of the time.
Points #2 and #7 are what the rest of the points are working to prove right.
So I ask you... what part of this do you dispute?
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I think Jesus probably existed, but I don't think that what was claimed about him was credible.
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razzelflabben
Contributor
when I was about 6, I was looking for a way to kill myself because of the stuff I had to deal with. In that despair, I rationed that if there was a God, that that was all I needed to survive. My situation didn't change, in fact, it got worse, but some years later I looked back and realized that I was thriving in a situation that should have destroyed me...if that isn't proof of God, what is? See, "feeling" isn't what God is all about, nor is freeing us from all suffering and struggle, rather God is about revealing to us His power to do the impossible, to set the prisoner free, to allow a 6 years old to thrive in a situation that was designed to destroy. The very fact that you are posting here tells me you are just not seeing God through the pains and sins of this world. IOW"s He is showing you who He is, you just can't or arent' seeing HIm.
Just my two cents.
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Again, please point out which of my Point(s) you disagree with. Whether or not He was the Son of God was not the point of my post. The point of my post is...
"What are the chances that someone living in 600-550 BC could write a double prophecy, and have both of them not only fulfilled, but the latter one fulfilled down to the very day, 600 years later?"
That's what I want you to answer.
What's the chances of that happening? What's the chances that Daniel would successfully make two prophecies, have them both come true, down to the very day?
The chances are simply astronomical. Unless, of course, he was telling the truth, and that an Angel or some other supernatural being really did come to him and tell him events of the future.
Also, in the 4 Gospels, Jesus was sitting with His 12 disciples in the upper room of the house. He gave a prophecy that the Gospel would be spread throughout the entire world. At the time, it was just Him and 12 people.
What's the chances of that actually happening, that 1 guy could start a new religion with 12 people in the middle of lots of persecution, and have it successfully cover the whole world 2,000 years later?
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- Jul 2, 2003
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MOD HAT
This thread is being moved to Exploring Christianity so a clean up was done.
This thread is being moved to Exploring Christianity so a clean up was done.
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