Mormon Theology - Agency.

[TasteForTruth]

I don't need any victories in any of my threads. I don't post to receive accolades.

Cool beans.

 

[RufustheRed]

I see that you posted after this. At any rate, I'll let you in on a little secret... after reviewing every post in that thread I have concluded that the material I would direct people to is not actually there. That thread started a discussion that another poster continued and completed with me via PM. I had forgotten that the bulk of the evidence I brought to support the point was shared in those PM exchanges, not in the thread. Hope that helps.

Thanks. I thought I was losing some of few remaining cognative processes.

I don't know. Does BarryK, Badwolf123, Johan Henze, and HenryPorter (all one poster) represent mainstream Christianity?

No, he doesn't and I was appalled when I discovered that he was doing that. Be that as it may, there is still one LDS member who does not adhere to the said A o F, I believe that is why it was appropriate to post it to the site. 'Nuff said. Have a great week!

Rufus

 

[alfonsobonetti]

The Bible contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness!

And where does the Bible actually teach such a point?
Why do you believe an Extra-Biblical teaching, if you are not following the doctrines of men?

I seem to recall the Bible teaching a "different" point. That is that ALL scripture is for the edification of man, for training, reprove, etc.???

 

[alfonsobonetti]

Will the The Articles of Faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints be changed to line up with your beliefs?

TasteForTruth was simply reversing your irrelevant posturing back at you.
Further, you yourself don't even believe the Bible is a "100% Pure", so why do you wish to apply a double standard to Tastefortruth when you know very well that no LDS believes any scripture is "infallible", and no Christian believes every word in the Bible is "perfectly pure" (at least any basic educated Christian, knows there are absolute proven mortal mistakes in the book)?

 

[Johan Henze]

Thanks. I thought I was losing some of few remaining cognative processes.




No, he doesn't and I was appalled when I discovered that he was doing that. Be that as it may, there is still one LDS member who does not adhere to the said A o F, I believe that is why it was appropriate to post it to the site. 'Nuff said. Have a great week!

Rufus

>>Yes, I represent true Christianity , the true faith delivered to the saints once and for all . Jude 1: 13

 

[TasteForTruth]

>>Yes, I represent true Christianity , the true faith delivered to the saints once and for all . Jude 1: 13

The incredibility of that statement cannot be overstated. :o

 

[RufustheRed]

>>Yes, I represent true Christianity , the true faith delivered to the saints once and for all . Jude 1: 13

Not if you have to be dishonest in order to present it. Sorry. That doesn't wash.

Rufus

 

[skylark1]

I've read that thread. You have not shown that you agree with the LDS teaching presented in the eighth Article of Faith. In fact you stated, "Your insinuation that we disdain the Bible as insufficient is not accurate in my mind. It presupposes that the Bible itself is so flawed that it cannot lead men to Christ and salvation. We neither believe that nor teach it."bold mine

The LDS requirements for eternal life are not specified in the Bible. There is no commandment to be married for time and eternity in a temple of God. Mormonism teaches that marriage for time and eternity is essential to exaltation(otherwise known as salvation).

The Book of Mormon claims:

Concerning this record, the Prophet Joseph Smith, who translated it by the gift and power of God, said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book”
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
Articles of Faith 1:8Â[bless and do not curse]

There is an overwhelming lack of understanding in the world in relation to these principles of salvation and exaltation given to prepare mankind for a place in the kingdom of God, and this lack causes many to stumble. There is no excuse on the part of members of the Church, for they have received the necessary revelation directly from the heavens in this Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. The great mission of the Son of God has been revealed in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants more clearly than any other place. Many passages that have been misunderstood, and therefore mistranslated in the Bible, are clarified in these sacred volumes.(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957-1966], 4:.)http://www.ldsliving.com/answer09_09.asp
emphasis mine

For everyone concerned, this is what the LDS teach about the Bible:

24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.

25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.

26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them. 1 Nephi 13: 24-29

I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.(History of the Church, 4:461).

Joseph Smith taught that "many important points touching the salvation of man, had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was compiled" (History of the Church, 1:245). He also said that the Bible was correct as "it came from the original writers," but that "ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors" (History of the Church, 6:57.)bold mine
Book of Mormon Student Manual, Chapter 4, p. 29

Contrary to your claims, Mormonism teaches that the Bible is an insufficient guide to exaltation/salvation.

You said:
It is not our conclusion that the Bible is insufficient. It is a revealtion from God that makes us to know that many things have been removed from it, and that this was done at the behest of the adversary to cause many to stumble. I believe that when God reveals a word to man, rejecting that word is equal to accepting insufficiency. Up until 1829, the Bible was not insufficient, for it was all that God had given men (collectively). But now God has given more, and to accept only that which was previously given is indeed insufficient.bold mine
http://www.christianforums.com/t7462841-6/

Well, the eighth Article of Faith and many LDS leaders consider the Bible to not be 100% true. Up until 1829, the Bible evidently did not show men the way to eternal life. If they had it then, LDS would not be performing proxy baptisms and sealings for those deceased Christians.

You like to play word games. I don't, but I won't shy away from declaring truth.

I wanted to go back to some of the ideas that were expressed prior to the recent tangents in this thread.

I think that the LDS position that was offered is that the Bible contains suffiicient information needed for salvation (not for exaltation).


So often quotes are posted such as the ones in the post above to try to show that LDS do not accept or revere the Bible. I came across the following by Brigham Young, and wanted to share it. Yes, LDS teach that parts of the Bible were removed, and that parts of it were not translated accurately. But they do consider it to be scripture. Perhaps these words help to add a more complete view of how LDS regard the Bible.

I believe the words of the Bible are just what they are; but aside from that I believe the doctrines concerning salvation contained in that book are true, and that their observance will elevate any people, nation or family that dwells on the face of the earth. The doctrines contained in the Bible will lift to a superior condition all who observe them; they will impart to them knowledge, wisdom, charity, fill them with compassion and cause them to feel after the wants of those who are in distress, or in painful or degraded circumstances. They who observe the precepts contained in the Scriptures will be just and true and virtuous and peaceable at home and abroad. Follow out the doctrines of the Bible, and men will make splendid husbands, women excellent wives, and children will be obedient; they will make families happy and the nations wealthy and happy and lifted up above the things of this life. 13:175.

We take this book, the Bible, which I expect to see voted out of the so-called Christian world very soon, they are coming to it as fast as possible, I say we take this book for our guide, for our rule of action; we take it as the foundation of our faith. It points the way to salvation like a fingerboard pointing to a city, or a map which designates the locality of mountains, rivers, or the latitude and longitude of any place on the surface of the earth that we desire to find, and we have no better sense than to believe it; hence, I say that the Latter-day Saints have the most natural faith and belief of any people on the face of the earth. 13:236.

Discourses of Brigham Young Chapter 11, Discourses of Brigham Young, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints​

 

[Rescued One]

I wanted to go back to some of the ideas that were expressed prior to the recent tangents in this thread.

I think that the LDS position that was offered is that the Bible contains suffiicient information needed for salvation (not for exaltation).

No information from any book of scripture is needed for non-exaltation. Everyone who had the opportunity to gain a mortal body will be resurrected regardless of who they are or which commandments they broke. That is sometimes referred to as general instead of individual salvation.

And I said exaltation in my post.

So often quotes are posted such as the ones in the post above to try to show that LDS do not accept or revere the Bible.

We aren't talking about other people. I, Phoebe Ann, posted the above quotes. Those quotes present an accurate view that the LDS church teaches about the Bible. Part of my quotes come from LDS scripture.

I came across the following by Brigham Young, and wanted to share it. Yes, LDS teach that parts of the Bible were removed, and that parts of it were not translated accurately. But they do consider it to be scripture.

I did not say that LDS don't regard the Bible as scripture. It is regarded as flawed scripture.

There is an overwhelming lack of understanding in the world in relation to these principles of salvation and exaltation given to prepare mankind for a place in the kingdom of God, and this lack causes many to stumble. There is no excuse on the part of members of the Church, for they have received the necessary revelation directly from the heavens in this Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. The great mission of the Son of God has been revealed in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants more clearly than any other place. Many passages that have been misunderstood, and therefore mistranslated in the Bible, are clarified in these sacred volumes.(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957-1966], 4:.)http://www.ldsliving.com/answer09_09.asp

Perhaps these words help to add a more complete view of how LDS regard the Bible.

I believe the words of the Bible are just what they are; but aside from that I believe the doctrines concerning salvation contained in that book are true, and that their observance will elevate any people, nation or family that dwells on the face of the earth. The doctrines contained in the Bible will lift to a superior condition all who observe them; they will impart to them knowledge, wisdom, charity, fill them with compassion and cause them to feel after the wants of those who are in distress, or in painful or degraded circumstances. They who observe the precepts contained in the Scriptures will be just and true and virtuous and peaceable at home and abroad. Follow out the doctrines of the Bible, and men will make splendid husbands, women excellent wives, and children will be obedient; they will make families happy and the nations wealthy and happy and lifted up above the things of this life. 13:175.​

And all those wonderful husbands, wives, and children have not done enough to spend eternity with Heavenly Father. The Bible cannot bring anyone to exaltation in LDS teachings. Those "splendid husbands, women excellent wives, and obedient children" belong to an apostate church teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

We take this book, the Bible, which I expect to see voted out of the so-called Christian world very soon, they are coming to it as fast as possible, I say we take this book for our guide, for our rule of action; we take it as the foundation of our faith. It points the way to salvation like a fingerboard pointing to a city, or a map which designates the locality of mountains, rivers, or the latitude and longitude of any place on the surface of the earth that we desire to find, and we have no better sense than to believe it; hence, I say that the Latter-day Saints have the most natural faith and belief of any people on the face of the earth. 13:236.

Discourses of Brigham Young Chapter 11, Discourses of Brigham Young, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Does the Bible say that baptism by one in authority is required for entrance into the Celestial Kingdom?

Does the Bible say you can't be saved unless you do the temple work for the dead?*

Does the Bible say that you must be married by the proper authority for time and eternity?

Does the Bible say that mere resurrection is salvation, or does it teach that the saved have eternal life with God?

I believe that the quote by Brigham Young is being misunderstood.


* Ordinances and covenants of the temple

Scriptures identify other important prerequisites to eternal perfection. They relate to the ordinances and covenants of the temple. (28) No accountable individual can receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom without the ordinances of the temple. Endowments and sealings are for our personal perfection and are secured through our faithfulness. (29)

This requirement also pertains to our ancestors. Paul taught "that they without us should not be made perfect." (30) Again, in that verse, the Greek term from which perfect was translated was a form of teleios. (31)

In latter-day revelation the Lord was even more explicit. His prophet wrote: "My dearly beloved brethren and sisters, let me assure you that these are principles in relation to the dead and the living that cannot be lightly passed over, as pertaining to our salvation. For their salvation is necessary and essential to our salvation. . . . They without us cannot be made perfect--neither can we without our dead be made perfect." (32)
http://emp.byui.edu/SATTERFIELDB/Talks/Perfect.htm

 

[skylark1]

I wanted to go back to some of the ideas that were expressed prior to the recent tangents in this thread.

I think that the LDS position that was offered is that the Bible contains suffiicient information needed for salvation (not for exaltation).

No information from any book of scripture is needed for non-exaltation. Everyone who had the opportunity to gain a mortal body will be resurrected regardless of who they are or which commandments they broke. That is sometimes referred to as general instead of individual salvation.

And I said exaltation in my post.

Yes, and TasteForTruth, who offered the LDS position said "salvation." That was what I was speaking of in my post. You quoted him saying, "Your insinuation that we disdain the Bible as insufficient is not accurate in my mind. It presupposes that the Bible itself is so flawed that it cannot lead men to Christ and salvation. We neither believe that nor teach it." I hope that is clearer.

We aren't talking about other people. I, Phoebe Ann, posted the above quotes. Those quotes present an accurate view that the LDS church teaches about the Bible. Part of my quotes come from LDS scripture.

I was speaking of the forum in general. You do not get to decide who I was speaking of when I know that I was making a general statement. My statement really wasn't even limited to this forum, as I have observed the same thing in others.

I did not say that LDS don't regard the Bible as scripture. It is regarded as flawed scripture.

I did not claim that you did.

There is an overwhelming lack of understanding in the world in relation to these principles of salvation and exaltation given to prepare mankind for a place in the kingdom of God, and this lack causes many to stumble. There is no excuse on the part of members of the Church, for they have received the necessary revelation directly from the heavens in this Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. The great mission of the Son of God has been revealed in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants more clearly than any other place. Many passages that have been misunderstood, and therefore mistranslated in the Bible, are clarified in these sacred volumes.(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957-1966], 4:.)http://www.ldsliving.com/answer09_09.asp

"It is a miracle that the Bible literally contains within its pages the converting, healing Spirit of Christ, which has turned men’s hearts for centuries, leading them to pray, to choose right paths, and to search to find their Savior.

The Holy Bible is well named. It is holy because it teaches truth, holy because it warms us with its spirit, holy because it teaches us to know God and understand His dealings with men, and holy because it testifies throughout its pages of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Abraham Lincoln said of the Bible: “This Great Book … is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Saviour gave to the world was communicated through this book. But for it we could not know right from wrong” (Speeches and Writings, 1859–1865 [1989], 628).

It is not by chance or coincidence that we have the Bible today. Righteous individuals were prompted by the Spirit to record both the sacred things they saw and the inspired words they heard and spoke. Other devoted people were prompted to protect and preserve these records. Men like John Wycliffe, the courageous William Tyndale, and Johannes Gutenberg were prompted against much opposition to translate the Bible into language people could understand and to publish it in books people could read. I believe even the scholars of King James had spiritual promptings in their translation work."

The Miracle of the Holy Bible, M. Russell Ballard, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, Ensign, April 2007​

 

[Rescued One]

Yes, and TasteForTruth, who offered the LDS position said "salvation." That was what I was speaking of in my post. You quoted him saying, "Your insinuation that we disdain the Bible as insufficient is not accurate in my mind. It presupposes that the Bible itself is so flawed that it cannot lead men to Christ and salvation. We neither believe that nor teach it." I hope that is clearer.



I was speaking of the forum in general. You do not get to decide who I was speaking of when I know that I was making a general statement. My statement really wasn't even limited to this forum, as I have observed the same thing in others.


I did not claim that you did.

"It is a miracle that the Bible literally contains within its pages the converting, healing Spirit of Christ, which has turned men’s hearts for centuries, leading them to pray, to choose right paths, and to search to find their Savior.

The Holy Bible is well named. It is holy because it teaches truth, holy because it warms us with its spirit, holy because it teaches us to know God and understand His dealings with men, and holy because it testifies throughout its pages of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Abraham Lincoln said of the Bible: “This Great Book … is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Saviour gave to the world was communicated through this book. But for it we could not know right from wrong” (Speeches and Writings, 1859–1865 [1989], 628).

It is not by chance or coincidence that we have the Bible today. Righteous individuals were prompted by the Spirit to record both the sacred things they saw and the inspired words they heard and spoke. Other devoted people were prompted to protect and preserve these records. Men like John Wycliffe, the courageous William Tyndale, and Johannes Gutenberg were prompted against much opposition to translate the Bible into language people could understand and to publish it in books people could read. I believe even the scholars of King James had spiritual promptings in their translation work."

The Miracle of the Holy Bible, M. Russell Ballard, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, Ensign, April 2007​

"It is a miracle that the Bible literally contains within its pages the converting, healing Spirit of Christ, which has turned men’s hearts for centuries, leading them to pray, to choose right paths, and to search to find their Savior."

To search to find the Saviour is not synonymous with finding Him nor is it to find exaltation. One cannot have salvation/exaltation without baptism, laying on of hands, and temple ordinances.

Pray to Heavenly Father to help you know that the way to come unto Christ is by becoming a member of His Church.
Invite All to Come unto Christ - Friend Oct. 2010

 

[alfonsobonetti]

I wanted to go back to some of the ideas that were expressed prior to the recent tangents in this thread.

I think that the LDS position that was offered is that the Bible contains suffiicient information needed for salvation (not for exaltation).

So often quotes are posted such as the ones in the post above to try to show that LDS do not accept or revere the Bible. I came across the following by Brigham Young, and wanted to share it. Yes, LDS teach that parts of the Bible were removed, and that parts of it were not translated accurately. But they do consider it to be scripture. Perhaps these words help to add a more complete view of how LDS regard the Bible.

I believe the words of the Bible are just what they are; but aside from that I believe the doctrines concerning salvation contained in that book are true, and that their observance will elevate any people, nation or family that dwells on the face of the earth. The doctrines contained in the Bible will lift to a superior condition all who observe them; they will impart to them knowledge, wisdom, charity, fill them with compassion and cause them to feel after the wants of those who are in distress, or in painful or degraded circumstances. They who observe the precepts contained in the Scriptures will be just and true and virtuous and peaceable at home and abroad. Follow out the doctrines of the Bible, and men will make splendid husbands, women excellent wives, and children will be obedient; they will make families happy and the nations wealthy and happy and lifted up above the things of this life. 13:175.

We take this book, the Bible, which I expect to see voted out of the so-called Christian world very soon, they are coming to it as fast as possible, I say we take this book for our guide, for our rule of action; we take it as the foundation of our faith. It points the way to salvation like a fingerboard pointing to a city, or a map which designates the locality of mountains, rivers, or the latitude and longitude of any place on the surface of the earth that we desire to find, and we have no better sense than to believe it; hence, I say that the Latter-day Saints have the most natural faith and belief of any people on the face of the earth. 13:236.

Discourses of Brigham Young Chapter 11, Discourses of Brigham Young, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints​

Well said Skylark..... I'm daily impressed by your even handed, fair, objective, and more importantly accurate representation of mormonism.

You prove as I've always said, that one does not have to believe the same as another to be honest of their fellow men. You are an example of True Christianity. Thank you. Now if the rest could understand what they do.

 

[alfonsobonetti]

Phoebe..... Recognizing the FACT that the books that make up the Bible has been in the hands of Babylon (the world) for some 2,000 whatever, that there is much missing, and that men has created their own interpretations/translations therefrom, thus changing the pure word, doesn't somehow mean that LDS go around saying and teaching that the Bible is "flawed".

We go around teaching that ALL scripture is of God and is for our use.
We don't have classes saying what flaws exist in the Bible, nothing of the like.
If your claim was true, we would. What we actually do, is we use all 4 scriptures the same and equally. All for edification, instruction, and reproof.

LDS consider ALL scripture as "flawed". People like you even complain about the "changes" in the Book of Mormon. Well, those changes have been to eliminate errors of scribes, errors of printers, etc.

We LDS even have a saying in the BOM.

And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.

We do not condemn the Bible because of the faults of men, we condemn the men, the deceiving hands that controlled and have changed interpretations of the Bible.

"As long as it's 'translated correctly'".... Refers to more than just the errors therein.
It's as I've said before, I knew Mormonism from the Bible alone, before I knew mormonism existed. The fullness of the Gospel of Christ, as the Church has said, is found within the Bible. That doesn't mean the fullness of Truth, practices, theology, etc. is therein, only that the Gospel of Christ is therein.

We don't condemn anyone for following the Bible, but you condemn all Mormonism, our believing in the Bible and recognizing that it's not "pure", our following additional revelations and scripture from God, and on. We show charity and respect, you show none.

 

[FreeinChrist]

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[Rescued One]

Phoebe..... Recognizing the FACT that the books that make up the Bible has been in the hands of Babylon (the world) for some 2,000 whatever, that there is much missing, and that men has created their own interpretations/translations therefrom, thus changing the pure word, doesn't somehow mean that LDS go around saying and teaching that the Bible is "flawed".

So non-LDS are "Babylon(the world) for some 2,000 whatever?"

"...all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels."
- Prophet Joseph Smith , The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith Jr., editor, vol.1, no.4, p. 60

We go around teaching that ALL scripture is of God and is for our use.
We don't have classes saying what flaws exist in the Bible, nothing of the like.

You don't have to tell me about LDS classes. I was there. Remember?

. . thou seest the foundation of a great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

Wherefore, thou seeth that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

. . . because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceeding great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them (Book of Mormon, I Nephi 13:26-29).
(Bold mine)

If your claim was true, we would. What we actually do, is we use all 4 scriptures the same and equally. All for edification, instruction, and reproof.

I don't lie.

“Many Plain and Precious Things”
The Prophet Joseph Smith said, “I believe the Bible as it read when it came from the pen of the original writers. Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 327).
Joseph Smith’s translation of the Bible helped restore many of the “plain and precious things” (1 Nephi 13:28) which were lost.
Book of Mormon Student Manual (1996) , Chapter 4

Are you aware of the number of changes that have been made in the JST which were supposedly corrections to the KJV? Also I hope you realize that the Book of Mormon Student Manual is for LDS classes and it indicates that there are flaws in the Bible.

Nephi testified that the Bible once “contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record” and that “after [the words] go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away” (1 Nephi 13:24, 26).
Boyd K. Packer, “Who Is Jesus Christ?,” Ensign, Mar 2008, 12–19


8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
Articles of Faith 1:8Â[bless and do not curse]

The above Article of Faith does not say, "We believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly."

LDS consider ALL scripture as "flawed".

Concerning this record, the Prophet Joseph Smith, who translated it by the gift and power of God, said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book”
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints


There is an overwhelming lack of understanding in the world in relation to these principles of salvation and exaltation given to prepare mankind for a place in the kingdom of God, and this lack causes many to stumble. There is no excuse on the part of members of the Church, for they have received the necessary revelation directly from the heavens in this Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. The great mission of the Son of God has been revealed in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants more clearly than any other place. Many passages that have been misunderstood, and therefore mistranslated in the Bible, are clarified in these sacred volumes.(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957-1966], 4:.)http://www.ldsliving.com/answer09_09.asp


Even though some of you may be fully occupied with families and have little time for other things at this stage of your lives, you can enlarge your minds and broaden your understanding through the reading of good books . . . You may think you are too busy. Ten or fifteen minutes a day with the scriptures, and particularly with the Book of Mormon, can give you marvelous understanding of the power of the Almighty for the blessing of His children. (Bold mine)
Gordon B. Hinckley, “Rise to the Stature of the Divine within You,” Ensign, Nov 1989, 94


The Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants testify of each other. You cannot believe one and not the other.

The Book of Mormon testifies of modern books of scripture. It refers to them as “other books” and “last records” which “establish the truth” of the Bible and make known the “plain and precious things which have been taken away” from the Bible (1 Ne. 13:39–40)...

The Book of Mormon brings men to Christ. The Doctrine and Covenants brings men to Christ’s kingdom, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth” (D&C 1:30). I know that.

The Book of Mormon is the “keystone” of our religion, and the Doctrine and Covenants is the capstone, with continuing latter-day revelation. The Lord has placed His stamp of approval on both the keystone and the capstone.
Ezra Taft Benson, “The Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants,” Liahona, Jan 2005, 8

People like you even complain about the "changes" in the Book of Mormon. Well, those changes have been to eliminate errors of scribes, errors of printers, etc.

We LDS even have a saying in the BOM.

And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.

We do not condemn the Bible because of the faults of men, we condemn the men, the deceiving hands that controlled and have changed interpretations of the Bible.

"As long as it's 'translated correctly'".... Refers to more than just the errors therein.

"As long as it's translated correctly" no doubt refers to Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 13.

It's as I've said before, I knew Mormonism from the Bible alone, before I knew mormonism existed.

Thank you for your opinion.

The fullness of the Gospel of Christ, as the Church has said, is found within the Bible.

Those are just words. Now why did the Gospel need to be restored? Could it be "for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away” (Bold mine)

That doesn't mean the fullness of Truth, practices, theology, etc. is therein, only that the Gospel of Christ is therein.

The gospel is our Heavenly Father's plan of happiness...

In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us to be exalted in the celestial kingdom. The Savior has promised that if we endure to the end, faithfully living the gospel, He will hold us guiltless before the Father at the Final Judgment (see 3 Nephi 27:16).
Gospel


A testimony of the veracity of the Book of Mormon helps people to find an answer to why the gospel and the Church of Jesus Christ have been restored by a prophet and why we have a living prophet today, namely Gordon B. Hinckley. It also answers the ultimate why: all the ordinances of the gospel provide the greatest blessing to prepare our salvation and to fulfill our mortal purpose to create eternal families. This message of the Restoration is true because it is divine.Elder Charles Didier, “The Message of the Restoration,” Ensign, Nov. 2003, 73

We don't condemn anyone for following the Bible, but you condemn all Mormonism, our believing in the Bible and recognizing that it's not "pure", our following additional revelations and scripture from God, and on. We show charity and respect, you show none.

You're kidding, right?

 

[alfonsobonetti]

So non-LDS are "Babylon(the world) for some 2,000 whatever?"

They have their "portion" thereof, just like the below quote of JS states.
The Doctrines of men mixing with the Doctrines of God are simply not the doctrines of God no matter how much you wish to make them so. And anyone with common sense can see that all the various so-called "traditional" Christianity has all kinds of doctrines of men mixed within their religions with the doctrines of God.

"...all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels."
- Prophet Joseph Smith , The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith Jr., editor, vol.1, no.4, p. 60

Yes correct..... Any falsehood believed by anyone is a "portion" thereof of the devil and his angels. As a Christian would you really disagree with such a Biblical concept???

Even mormons can falter and have a portion with the church of the devil, thus don't know what your problem here is. Oh I know, you're trying to make our words say something BEYOND what they are actually saying. You are trying to make them say that non-LDS are nothing but "devils", when we have never said such. People are only of evil according to the portion and degree of said evil. You don't tell the truth when you represent LDS as saying otherwise.

You don't have to tell me about LDS classes. I was there. Remember?

I don't care if you were there.... Never in my life have I met a dishonorable critic of mormonism actually tell the truth about mormonism, no matter if they were once LDS or not. There is no actual difference between the beliefs of the never-LDS and the former LDS.

Of course, I've known ex-LDS who do represent mormonism accurately, but they are not dishonorable critics, like most here and most elsewhere.

. . thou seest the foundation of a great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

Wherefore, thou seeth that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

. . . because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceeding great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them (Book of Mormon, I Nephi 13:26-29).
(Bold mine)

Ya, and....? The great and abominable church of the devil is involved in all falsehood and perversion. Or would you disagree?

I don't lie.

Almost everything you write about mormonism is a misrepresentation of it, thus if I were you I would repent, and repent of your misrepresentation of yourself.

“Many Plain and Precious Things”
The Prophet Joseph Smith said, “I believe the Bible as it read when it came from the pen of the original writers. Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 327).
Joseph Smith’s translation of the Bible helped restore many of the “plain and precious things” (1 Nephi 13:28) which were lost.
Book of Mormon Student Manual (1996) , Chapter 4

We've never said the Bible was perfect.

Are you aware of the number of changes that have been made in the JST which were supposedly corrections to the KJV? Also I hope you realize that the Book of Mormon Student Manual is for LDS classes and it indicates that there are flaws in the Bible.

Let me tell you a little secret..... that you as usual won't care to remember anyway, but I'll tell it anyway. Mormonism recognizing and stating there are mistakes in the Bible, has nothing to do with your claim that we go around preaching it as unreliable, and that we actually point out errors in it.

We simply READ THE BOOK..... Can you comprehend the difference between your claim and what we actually do??? We don't go around saying, oh this verse was corrupted, and we can't trust it and can't believe it. That is your claim, and that is FALSE!!! PERIOD! Can you get it???

As to the JST, it is a inspired helpmate, not a replacement and absolute correction. It makes a little more clear some of the word, fixes some things etc. But, we don't go around saying this or that of the Bible is FALSE. Thus your claim is FALSE. Get it????

Nephi testified that the Bible once “contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record” and that “after [the words] go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away” (1 Nephi 13:24, 26).
Boyd K. Packer, “Who Is Jesus Christ?,” Ensign, Mar 2008, 12–19

Yep, true statement. The world had control of the scriptures, and many plain and precious truths were lost.

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
Articles of Faith 1:8Â[bless and do not curse]

The above Article of Faith does not say, "We believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly."

It doesn't have to. The Book of Mormon wasn't in the hands of the world for years and years. Further, that statement in the Articles of Faith refers just as much to "interpretation" as it does to actual translation. In the early days of the Church Translation was a catch all word to describe actual translating, revelation, inspiration, interpretation, etc. Plus, how many actual "translations" are there of the Bible today? You are aware that they all are not consistent with one another, and change parts, including significant parts, even changing meanings right? I mean, when I've compared significant doctrinal verses between the NIV, KJV, and the Hebrew/Greek, I'm just florred about the corruption. The NIV is supposedly the most perfect, but while it does translate some things better, it actually perverts other things. There is another discussion on this forum about Genesis 1 the creation story. The NIV completely corrupts the actual story, creating an Evangelical and common story, rather than the one the scripture actually taught, which the KJV actually mostly retained.

Not to mention existing scriptures that were never included in the Bible, as well as lost, and or taken out or never put in, scriptures in which Christ and various Apostles and early Church Fathers referred to. On and on. People who think that there hasn't been a loss of the Plain and Precious truths are incredibly uninformed, and simply following the propaganda and traditions of their religion, rather than actually know the history, and the scriptures themselves.

Concerning this record, the Prophet Joseph Smith, who translated it by the gift and power of God, said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book”
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Yes, it's the most correct..... He didn't say PERFECT nor INFALLIBLE.
Further, he wasn't commenting on the errors of scribes, copiers, printers, etc. that occured after the fact, most of which have been now corrected. Though, there are still a couple of things that need fixing. He also wasn't commenting on the LDS belief that we believe no scripture is perfect and without the flaws of man.

There is an overwhelming lack of understanding in the world in relation to these principles of salvation and exaltation given to prepare mankind for a place in the kingdom of God, and this lack causes many to stumble. There is no excuse on the part of members of the Church, for they have received the necessary revelation directly from the heavens in this Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. The great mission of the Son of God has been revealed in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants more clearly than any other place. Many passages that have been misunderstood, and therefore mistranslated in the Bible, are clarified in these sacred volumes.(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957-1966], 4:.)http://www.ldsliving.com/answer09_09.asp

Yep, true statement..... Still doesn't mean we actually say what those errors are with any reasonable degree. Most of the errors are errors of interpretation. With Modern Revelation, LDS are able to easily read the Bible and NOT BE CONFUSED by whatever it's imperfection or omission.

We simply read it as it is. Are you getting it yet?

 

[alfonsobonetti]

Even though some of you may be fully occupied with families and have little time for other things at this stage of your lives, you can enlarge your minds and broaden your understanding through the reading of good books . . . You may think you are too busy. Ten or fifteen minutes a day with the scriptures, and particularly with the Book of Mormon, can give you marvelous understanding of the power of the Almighty for the blessing of His children. (Bold mine)
Gordon B. Hinckley, “Rise to the Stature of the Divine within You,” Ensign, Nov 1989, 94

True statement. The Book of Mormon is pure revelation, thus the mistakes of men are few. We can know God greatly by it's words.

The Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants testify of each other. You cannot believe one and not the other.

The Book of Mormon testifies of modern books of scripture. It refers to them as “other books” and “last records” which “establish the truth” of the Bible and make known the “plain and precious things which have been taken away” from the Bible (1 Ne. 13:39–40)...

The Book of Mormon brings men to Christ. The Doctrine and Covenants brings men to Christ’s kingdom, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth” (D&C 1:30). I know that.

The Book of Mormon is the “keystone” of our religion, and the Doctrine and Covenants is the capstone, with continuing latter-day revelation. The Lord has placed His stamp of approval on both the keystone and the capstone.
Ezra Taft Benson, “The Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants,” Liahona, Jan 2005, 8

All true.... And note how the second quote actually verifies what I already said about latter-day revelation making clear any confusion or anything missing from the Bible? Thus, we don't have to think of the Bible as "unreliable", we don't at all, because latter-day revelation has MADE IT RELIABLE again, and more importantly made the "interpretation" thereof of it reliable again.

Being a mormon, we translate it correctly.
Non-LDS, especially those beholden to particular ideology's, who don't see all the differences in interpretations from the different religions related to the book, simply do not get close to understanding what the book actual says and means. Some do, but most don't.

Me, I consider myself very lucky and blessed to have been exposed to the different religions, reading the book myself, comparing, not beholden to any one interpretation, and then being able to see the correct interpretations for most things, and seeing that none of the religions actually fit what the Bible stated, until I came upon mormonism.

"As long as it's translated correctly" no doubt refers to Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 13.

It's a simple fact that there are many wrong and contradictory "translations" of the Bible. Stating an important fact, doesn't mean the Bible is "unreliable". Alone it can be, and especially belonging to a particular religion which doesn't follow it in full and accurately, but not with latter-day revelation. As I've already explained above, with latter-day revelation, the Bible and it's interpretation and translation IS reliable again.

Thus, your claim that we consider it unreliable, is false.
As one of our four official scriptures, it's entirely reliable along with all the other scripture.

Even YOUR so-called fellow "traditional" Christians and their scholars consider certain books of the Bible more "accurate" and "reliable" than others. Mormons considering the BOM or the D&C a little more reliable than the Bible alone is no different. Thus, double standards and misrepresentation of others is your life, a sad thing to see, a Christian doing it even.

Those are just words. Now why did the Gospel need to be restored? Could it be "for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away” (Bold mine)

Obviously.

The gospel is our Heavenly Father's plan of happiness...

In its fulness, the gospel includes all the doctrines, principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants necessary for us to be exalted in the celestial kingdom. The Savior has promised that if we endure to the end, faithfully living the gospel, He will hold us guiltless before the Father at the Final Judgment (see 3 Nephi 27:16).
Gospel

As a former mormon, you're supposed to actually know mormonism, so why don't you seem to know what I was talking about??? Could it be that you don't actually know mormonism anymore, only think you do???

Do I really need to refer you to LDS statements and scholarship explaining the CONTEXT of statements that say the Fullness of the Gospel is found within the BOM as well as the Bible, compared to other statements where Fullness of the Gospel in LDS terms most commonly refers to ALL restoration things, as you quoted? I guess I do.

Critics misinterpret the meaning of the scriptural phrase fullness of the Gospel. The fullness of the Gospel is that Jesus Christ "came into the world to do the will of [the] Father" by working out a perfect atonement (3 Ne 27:13-22). The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that "the fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it."

See more here: Book of Mormon/Contains the fulness of the gospel - FAIRMormon

A testimony of the veracity of the Book of Mormon helps people to find an answer to why the gospel and the Church of Jesus Christ have been restored by a prophet and why we have a living prophet today, namely Gordon B. Hinckley. It also answers the ultimate why: all the ordinances of the gospel provide the greatest blessing to prepare our salvation and to fulfill our mortal purpose to create eternal families. This message of the Restoration is true because it is divine.Elder Charles Didier, “The Message of the Restoration,” Ensign, Nov. 2003, 73

And?

You're kidding, right?

Nope..... I'm not required to respect evil and wrong. So, don't confuse to the two concepts. Others here know I can be respectful. I don't have to be tolerant of intolerance, bigotry, and lying.