Mormon Theology - Agency.

[Dillinger]

I was until God brought me out.

What exactly did God show you?

 

[Rescued One]

What exactly did God show you?

I asked the real God to show me the path I should take to help me know Him. He showed me Proverbs 3:5-6! I asked Him Who He is.

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

He began to teach me what the Bible says.

 

[alfonsobonetti]

I asked the real God to show me the path I should take to help me know Him. He showed me Proverbs 3:5-6! I asked Him Who He is.

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

He began to teach me what the Bible says.

Personally, I would think he would show you all truth, not simply restrict you to the Bible.
What is also interesting to me, is that through my own experience with the Bible and the various interpretations from it (i.e. yours), they are interpretations that ignore significant parts of the Bible, and they also "add" to the Book. Such as the standard Christian view of God being "only" spirit. That is an "addition" to the verse in question. The verse in question speaks nothing about what God is "only". There are many more examples of this, such as Grace, baptism for the dead, pre-mortal life, the Trinity being one only rather than separate but one, etc.

Thus, in my view and experience, you are simply accepting the views and interpretations of the religion you are currently in, not that it's what the Bible actually teaches. I see much more from the Bible, hence why I'm mormon.

Me I engaged in the same process, and God showed me all other religions and interpretations were of men (their own understanding), and that there was only one True Church and true understanding of scripture including the Bible on the earth. And to be clear, I came to these conclusions before knowing of mormonism, just knowing the Bible alone, so it's not as if I was wanting mormonism to be true, or only seeing mormonism. I have experience with most of the various religions, major to minor.

The Doctrines of men mingled with the Doctrines of God have never been God's Truths. Thus, none of the man-made religions of the world could be the holders of the truth, and true interpretations. The only ones who could have the truth interpretations are those with His Priesthood, His Prophets and Apostles, etc., as He always said was the process.

 

[Rescued One]

Thus, in my view and experience, you are simply accepting the views and interpretations of the religion you are currently in, not that it's what the Bible actually teaches.

Thank you for telling everyone how LDS view non-LDS.

The Doctrines of men mingled with the Doctrines of God have never been God's Truths.

The Bible contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness!

 

[TasteForTruth]

The Bible contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness!

Thanks for your opinion.

Here's mine:

 

[Rescued One]

Thanks for your opinion.

Here's mine:

Will the The Articles of Faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints be changed to line up with your beliefs?

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.


2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.


3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.


4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.


5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.


6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.


7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.


8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.


10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.


11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.


12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.


13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

The Articles of Faith

No book of scripture is "perfect"
Latter-day Saints do not subscribe to the conservative Protestant belief in scriptural inerrancy. We do not believe that any book of scripture is perfect or infallible. Brigham Young explained:

When God speaks to the people, he does it in a manner to suit their circumstances and capacities.... Should the Lord Almighty send an angel to re-write the Bible, it would in many places be very different from what it now is. And I will even venture to say that if the Book of Mormon were now to be re-written, in many instances it would materially differ from the present translation. According as people are willing to receive the things of God, so the heavens send forth their blessings.[2]
So while the Book of Mormon has come down to us with fewer doctrinal errors and corruptions than the Bible, even it could be improved if we were ready to receive further light and knowledge.

Infelicities of language are also to be expected when produced by revelators with little education, said George A. Smith:

The Book of Mormon was denounced as ungrammatical. An argument was raised that if it had been translated by the gift and power of God it would have been strictly grammatical.... When the Lord reveals anything to men, he reveals it in a language that corresponds with their own. If you were to converse with an angel, and you used strictly grammatical language he would do the same. But if you used two negatives in a sentence the heavenly messenger would use language to correspond with your understanding.[3]
Book of Mormon/As the most correct book - FAIRMormon

 

[TasteForTruth]

Will the The Articles of Faith of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints be changed to line up with your beliefs?

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.


2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.


3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.


4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.


5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.


6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.


7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.


8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.


10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.


11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.


12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.


13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

The Articles of Faith

No book of scripture is "perfect"
Latter-day Saints do not subscribe to the conservative Protestant belief in scriptural inerrancy. We do not believe that any book of scripture is perfect or infallible. Brigham Young explained:

When God speaks to the people, he does it in a manner to suit their circumstances and capacities.... Should the Lord Almighty send an angel to re-write the Bible, it would in many places be very different from what it now is. And I will even venture to say that if the Book of Mormon were now to be re-written, in many instances it would materially differ from the present translation. According as people are willing to receive the things of God, so the heavens send forth their blessings.[2]
So while the Book of Mormon has come down to us with fewer doctrinal errors and corruptions than the Bible, even it could be improved if we were ready to receive further light and knowledge.

Infelicities of language are also to be expected when produced by revelators with little education, said George A. Smith:

The Book of Mormon was denounced as ungrammatical. An argument was raised that if it had been translated by the gift and power of God it would have been strictly grammatical.... When the Lord reveals anything to men, he reveals it in a language that corresponds with their own. If you were to converse with an angel, and you used strictly grammatical language he would do the same. But if you used two negatives in a sentence the heavenly messenger would use language to correspond with your understanding.[3]
Book of Mormon/As the most correct book - FAIRMormon

Ah... that's the beauty of the LDS faith, Phoebe Ann—they are aligned, and perfectly. And, as usual, it has been explained sufficiently in old threads which you appear to have simply dismissed for reasons all your own. I believe it was explained in this thread: http://www.christianforums.com/t7462841/

P.S. Thanks for the umpteenth quoting to me of "we believe it being honest." It is a favorite verse of yours and others here, which is used to imply that we LDS are not being honest, to which I respond:

 

[Rescued One]

Ah... that's the beauty of the LDS faith, Phoebe Ann—they are aligned, and perfectly.

I am fully aware that LDS like to be ambiguous and frequently redefine English words to suit their own purposes but "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly..."does not mean the same as Bible --- 100% true.

And, as usual, it has been explained sufficiently in old threads which you appear to have simply dismissed for reasons all your own. I believe it was explained in this thread: http://www.christianforums.com/t7462841/

What is the LDS Church’s teaching as to the reason for the revisions to the Bible in the “Joseph Smith Translation”?

Joseph Smith, the first prophet of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, made a "new translation" of the Bible, using the text of the King James Version (KJV). This work differs from the KJV in at least 3,410 verses and consists of additions, deletions, rearrangements, and other alterations that cause it to vary not only from the KJV but from other biblical texts. Changes range from minor details to fully reconstituted chapters. This article presents statements by Joseph Smith telling why he made a Bible translation, gives information relating to the development and production of the work, examines a number of the significant variants, and considers some doctrinal results and historical implications.

VIEW OF THE BIBLE. The official position of the Church is stated in its eighth article of faith: "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly." The message of the Bible is held to be true, while details of accuracy and completeness are accepted within certain limits. The Prophet Joseph Smith explained: "I believe the Bible as it read when it came from the pen of the original writers. Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors" (TPJS, p. 327). And again, "From sundry revelations which had been received, it was apparent that many points touching the salvation of men, had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was compiled" (TPJS, pp. 9-10).

Joseph Smith often used the words "translated" and "translation," not in the narrow sense alone of rendering a text from one language into another, but in the wider senses of "transmission," having reference to copying, editing, adding to, taking from, rephrasing, and interpreting. This is substantially beyond the usual meaning of "translation." When he said the Bible was not translated correctly, he not only was referring to the difficulties of rendering the Bible into another language but he was also observing that the manuscripts containing the text of the Bible have suffered at the hands of editors, copyists, and revisionists through centuries of transmission. Thus, the available texts of the Bible are neither as complete nor as accurate as when first written.
Robert J. Matthews
Joseph Smith Translation (JST) of the Bible

 

[TasteForTruth]

I am fully aware that LDS like to be ambiguous and frequently redefine English words to suit their own purposes but "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly..."does not mean the same as Bible --- 100% true.



What is the LDS Church’s teaching as to the reason for the revisions to the Bible in the “Joseph Smith Translation”?

Joseph Smith, the first prophet of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, made a "new translation" of the Bible, using the text of the King James Version (KJV). This work differs from the KJV in at least 3,410 verses and consists of additions, deletions, rearrangements, and other alterations that cause it to vary not only from the KJV but from other biblical texts. Changes range from minor details to fully reconstituted chapters. This article presents statements by Joseph Smith telling why he made a Bible translation, gives information relating to the development and production of the work, examines a number of the significant variants, and considers some doctrinal results and historical implications.

VIEW OF THE BIBLE. The official position of the Church is stated in its eighth article of faith: "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly." The message of the Bible is held to be true, while details of accuracy and completeness are accepted within certain limits. The Prophet Joseph Smith explained: "I believe the Bible as it read when it came from the pen of the original writers. Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors" (TPJS, p. 327). And again, "From sundry revelations which had been received, it was apparent that many points touching the salvation of men, had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was compiled" (TPJS, pp. 9-10).

Joseph Smith often used the words "translated" and "translation," not in the narrow sense alone of rendering a text from one language into another, but in the wider senses of "transmission," having reference to copying, editing, adding to, taking from, rephrasing, and interpreting. This is substantially beyond the usual meaning of "translation." When he said the Bible was not translated correctly, he not only was referring to the difficulties of rendering the Bible into another language but he was also observing that the manuscripts containing the text of the Bible have suffered at the hands of editors, copyists, and revisionists through centuries of transmission. Thus, the available texts of the Bible are neither as complete nor as accurate as when first written.
Robert J. Matthews
Joseph Smith Translation (JST) of the Bible

Well if you'd go back and read what has already been said in the aforementioned thread, you'd understand. Instead, you assume you understand. How is that our (LDS's) problem?

 

[Rescued One]

Well if you'd go back and read what has already been said in the aforementioned thread, you'd understand. Instead, you assume you understand. How is that our (LDS's) problem?

Is your only explanation to divert and accuse?

 

[TasteForTruth]

Is your only explanation to divert and accuse?

LOL, no. My answer was that an explanation was given previously, and that if you want to understand why the AoF are aligned with my beliefs, you ought to read what has already been given to you. (since you apparently failed to understand it then) And that is a diversion? That is an accusation? Seems like a pertinent invitation to me. Maybe not framed the way you want, but certainly pertinent, and anything but an accusation.

 

[RufustheRed]

Ah... that's the beauty of the LDS faith, Phoebe Ann—they are aligned, and perfectly. And, as usual, it has been explained sufficiently in old threads which you appear to have simply dismissed for reasons all your own. I believe it was explained in this thread: http://www.christianforums.com/t7462841/

I try not to get involved with these discussions, but I found this one a little difficult to follow. You referred the readers to a thread from 2010 that has 229 posts. Is there a specific post or message that is posted in that thread explains what you are attempting to convey? I have read several of the posts, but have not stumbled across anyone that seemed to fit the bill. A little help here, please. Thanks.

P.S. Thanks for the umpteenth quoting to me of "we believe it being honest." It is a favorite verse of yours and others here, which is used to imply that we LDS are not being honest, to which I respond:

Does being honest mean denying that a person has posted under a different moniker when the writing style, spelling errors and accusations are worded almost exactly the same? When this person was asked outright, he denied posting earlier under a different name. THAT person has an honesty problem and also claims to be LDS. I believe that this Article of Faith would apply to him. Does a person like this represent the LDS faith?

Rufus

 

[Rescued One]

LOL, no. My answer was that an explanation was given previously, and that if you want to understand why the AoF are aligned with my beliefs, you ought to read what has already been given to you. (since you apparently failed to understand it then) And that is a diversion? That is an accusation? Seems like a pertinent invitation to me. Maybe not framed the way you want, but certainly pertinent, and anything but an accusation.

I've read that thread. You have not shown that you agree with the LDS teaching presented in the eighth Article of Faith. In fact you stated, "Your insinuation that we disdain the Bible as insufficient is not accurate in my mind. It presupposes that the Bible itself is so flawed that it cannot lead men to Christ and salvation. We neither believe that nor teach it."bold mine

The LDS requirements for eternal life are not specified in the Bible. There is no commandment to be married for time and eternity in a temple of God. Mormonism teaches that marriage for time and eternity is essential to exaltation(otherwise known as salvation).

The Book of Mormon claims:

Concerning this record, the Prophet Joseph Smith, who translated it by the gift and power of God, said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book”
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
Articles of Faith 1:8Â[bless and do not curse]

There is an overwhelming lack of understanding in the world in relation to these principles of salvation and exaltation given to prepare mankind for a place in the kingdom of God, and this lack causes many to stumble. There is no excuse on the part of members of the Church, for they have received the necessary revelation directly from the heavens in this Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. The great mission of the Son of God has been revealed in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants more clearly than any other place. Many passages that have been misunderstood, and therefore mistranslated in the Bible, are clarified in these sacred volumes.(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957-1966], 4:.)http://www.ldsliving.com/answer09_09.asp
emphasis mine

For everyone concerned, this is what the LDS teach about the Bible:

24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.

25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.

26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.
1 Nephi 13: 24-29

I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book. (History of the Church, 4:461).

Joseph Smith taught that "many important points touching the salvation of man, had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was compiled" (History of the Church, 1:245). He also said that the Bible was correct as "it came from the original writers," but that "ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors" (History of the Church, 6:57.)
bold mine
Book of Mormon Student Manual, Chapter 4, p. 29

Contrary to your claims, Mormonism teaches that the Bible is an insufficient guide to exaltation/salvation.

You said:
It is not our conclusion that the Bible is insufficient. It is a revealtion from God that makes us to know that many things have been removed from it, and that this was done at the behest of the adversary to cause many to stumble. I believe that when God reveals a word to man, rejecting that word is equal to accepting insufficiency. Up until 1829, the Bible was not insufficient, for it was all that God had given men (collectively). But now God has given more, and to accept only that which was previously given is indeed insufficient.bold mine
http://www.christianforums.com/t7462841-6/

Well, the eighth Article of Faith and many LDS leaders consider the Bible to not be 100% true. Up until 1829, the Bible evidently did not show men the way to eternal life. If they had it then, LDS would not be performing proxy baptisms and sealings for those deceased Christians.

You like to play word games. I don't, but I won't shy away from declaring truth.

 

[RufustheRed]

Taste of Truth: Never mind sharing your post number requested in my previous post. Phoebe Ann shared it in the post above. Sure saved me a lot of time.

Phoebe Ann: Thank you for sharing ToT's message with us.

Have a great day.

Rufus

 

[skylark1]

I try not to get involved with these discussions, but I found this one a little difficult to follow. You referred the readers to a thread from 2010 that has 229 posts. Is there a specific post or message that is posted in that thread explains what you are attempting to convey? I have read several of the posts, but have not stumbled across anyone that seemed to fit the bill. A little help here, please. Thanks.

He might not have meant just one post, but a discussion, consisting of a series of posts. Glancing at the thread, specific posts that he could have meant include 46, 52, 56, 115, 199, 204, and 208. I hope that helps.

Does being honest mean denying that a person has posted under a different moniker when the writing style, spelling errors and accusations are worded almost exactly the same? When this person was asked outright, he denied posting earlier under a different name. THAT person has an honesty problem and also claims to be LDS. I believe that this Article of Faith would apply to him. Does a person like this represent the LDS faith?

TasteForTruth has been honest about changing his username from SoftSpoken. He was accused of being a different poster, but I am certain that assusation was incorrect.

If your comment was about an LDS poster who is not involved in this thread, then if there was a non-LDS poster not involved in this discussion who the description fits as well, then the image that TasteForTruth posted of a mirror is just as relevant.

I don't think that we should judge traditional/Nicene/othodox Christinity by the actions of one person, anymore than I think that we should judge Mormonism by the actions of one person.

"When a man who accepts the Christian doctrine
lives unworthily of it, it is much clearer to say he is a bad Christian than
to say he is not a Christian."

C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity​

That applies to all of us. And I think that there are times in each of our lives that we all could live more worthily of the name Christian.



Edit: I couldn't resisting adding this quote by C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, Chapter 10. FWIW. It is something that I think is good to try to keep in mind when frustrated by the behavior of one who considers himself a Christian. That isn't to say that anyone here fits exactly the person that Mr. Lewis describes below, but it certainly is food for thought, worthy of consideration, and I think that it helps to keep things in perspective.

We must, therefore, not be surprised if we find among the Christians
some people who are still nasty. There is even, when you come to think it
over, a reason why nasty people might be expected to turn to Christ in
greater numbers than nice ones. That was what people objected to about
Christ during His life on earth: He seemed to attract "such awful people."
That is what people still object to, and always will. Do you not see why?
Christ said '"Blessed are the poor" and "How hard it is for the rich to
enter the Kingdom," and no doubt He primarily meant the economically rich
and economically poor. But do not His words also apply to another kind of
riches and poverty? One of the dangers of having a lot of money is that you
may be quite satisfied with the kinds of happiness money can give and so
fail to realise your need for God. If everything seems to come simply by
signing checks, you may forget that you are at every moment totally
dependent on God. Now quite plainly, natural gifts carry with them a similar
danger. If you have sound nerves and intelligence and health and popularity
and a good upbringing, you are likely to be quite satisfied with your
character as it is. "Why drag God into it?" you may ask. A certain level of
good conduct comes fairly easily to you. You are not one of those wretched
creatures who are always being tripped up by sex, or dipsomania, or
nervousness, or bad temper. Everyone says you are a nice chap and (between
ourselves) you agree with them. You are quite likely to believe dial all
this niceness is your own doing: and you may easily not feel the need for
any better kind of goodness. Often people who have all these natural kinds
of goodness cannot be brought to recognise their need for Christ at all
until, one day, the natural goodness lets them down and their
self-satisfaction is shattered. In other words, it is hard for those who are
"rich" in this sense to enter the Kingdom.

It is very different for the nasty people-the little, low, timid,
warped, thin-blooded, lonely people, or the passionate, sensual, unbalanced
people. If they make any attempt at goodness at all, they learn, in double
quick time, that they need help. It is Christ or nothing for them. It is
taking up the cross and following-or else despair. They are the lost sheep;
He came specially to find them. They are (in one very real and terrible
sense) the "poor": He blessed diem. They are the "awful set" he goes about
with-and of course the Pharisees say still, as they said from the first, "If
there were anything in Christianity those people would not be Christians."


There is either a warning or an encouragement here for every one of us.
If you are a nice person-if virtue comes easily to you beware! Much is
expected from those to whom much is given. If you mistake for your own
merits what are really God's gifts to you through nature, and if you are
contented with simply being nice, you are still a rebel: and all those gifts
will only make your fall more terrible, your corruption more complicated,
your bad example more disastrous. The Devil was an archangel once; his
natural gifts were as far above yours as yours are above those of a
chimpanzee.

But if you are a poor creature-poisoned by a wretched upbringing in
some house full of vulgar jealousies and senseless quarrels-saddled, by no
choice of your own, with some loathsome sexual perversion-nagged day in and
day out by an inferiority complex that makes you snap at your best
friends-do not despair. He knows all about it. You are one of the poor whom
He blessed. He knows what a wretched machine you are trying to drive. Keep
on. Do what you can. One day (perhaps in another world, but perhaps far
sooner than that) he will fling it on the scrap-heap and give you a new one.
And then you may astonish us all-not least yourself: for you have learned
your driving in a hard school. (Some of the last will be first and some of
the first will be last.)

"Niceness"-wholesome, integrated personality-is an excellent thing. We
must try by every medical, educational, economic, and political means in our
power, to produce a world where as many people as possible grow up "nice";
just as we must try to produce a world where all have plenty to eat. But we
must not suppose that even if we succeeded in making everyone nice we should
have saved their souls. A world of nice people, content in their own
niceness, looking no further, turned away from God, would be just as
desperately in need of salvation as a miserable world-and might even be more
difficult to save.

C.S.Lewis. Mere christianity
​

 

[TasteForTruth]

I've read that thread. You have not shown that you agree with the LDS teaching presented in the eighth Article of Faith. In fact you stated, "Your insinuation that we disdain the Bible as insufficient is not accurate in my mind. It presupposes that the Bible itself is so flawed that it cannot lead men to Christ and salvation. We neither believe that nor teach it."bold mine

The LDS requirements for eternal life are not specified in the Bible. There is no commandment to be married for time and eternity in a temple of God. Mormonism teaches that marriage for time and eternity is essential to exaltation(otherwise known as salvation).

The Book of Mormon claims:

Concerning this record, the Prophet Joseph Smith, who translated it by the gift and power of God, said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book”
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
Articles of Faith 1:8Â[bless and do not curse]

There is an overwhelming lack of understanding in the world in relation to these principles of salvation and exaltation given to prepare mankind for a place in the kingdom of God, and this lack causes many to stumble. There is no excuse on the part of members of the Church, for they have received the necessary revelation directly from the heavens in this Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. The great mission of the Son of God has been revealed in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants more clearly than any other place. Many passages that have been misunderstood, and therefore mistranslated in the Bible, are clarified in these sacred volumes.(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols. [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1957-1966], 4:.)http://www.ldsliving.com/answer09_09.asp
emphasis mine

For everyone concerned, this is what the LDS teach about the Bible:

24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.

25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.

26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.
1 Nephi 13: 24-29

I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book. (History of the Church, 4:461).

Joseph Smith taught that "many important points touching the salvation of man, had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was compiled" (History of the Church, 1:245). He also said that the Bible was correct as "it came from the original writers," but that "ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors" (History of the Church, 6:57.)
bold mine
Book of Mormon Student Manual, Chapter 4, p. 29

Contrary to your claims, Mormonism teaches that the Bible is an insufficient guide to exaltation/salvation.

You said:
It is not our conclusion that the Bible is insufficient. It is a revealtion from God that makes us to know that many things have been removed from it, and that this was done at the behest of the adversary to cause many to stumble. I believe that when God reveals a word to man, rejecting that word is equal to accepting insufficiency. Up until 1829, the Bible was not insufficient, for it was all that God had given men (collectively). But now God has given more, and to accept only that which was previously given is indeed insufficient.bold mine
http://www.christianforums.com/t7462841-6/

Well, the eighth Article of Faith and many LDS leaders consider the Bible to not be 100% true. Up until 1829, the Bible evidently did not show men the way to eternal life. If they had it then, LDS would not be performing proxy baptisms and sealings for those deceased Christians.

You like to play word games. I don't, but I won't shy away from declaring truth.

Ah yes. I play word games but you declare truth. How nice. Well, if that's the case, then you can go on believing that my beliefs are incompatible with the 8th AoF. No amount of evidence to prove that opinion false would cause you to change it anyway. At least, nothing I have ever said in this forum since I got here has caused you to change any of your twisted views of Mormonism, so I have zero cause to believe that trying in this instance will bear any fruit. Phoebe Ann = truth speaker. TasteforTruth = word game player. Have it your way, highness.

 

[TasteForTruth]

I try not to get involved with these discussions, but I found this one a little difficult to follow. You referred the readers to a thread from 2010 that has 229 posts. Is there a specific post or message that is posted in that thread explains what you are attempting to convey? I have read several of the posts, but have not stumbled across anyone that seemed to fit the bill. A little help here, please. Thanks.

I see that you posted after this. At any rate, I'll let you in on a little secret... after reviewing every post in that thread I have concluded that the material I would direct people to is not actually there. That thread started a discussion that another poster continued and completed with me via PM. I had forgotten that the bulk of the evidence I brought to support the point was shared in those PM exchanges, not in the thread. Hope that helps.

Does being honest mean denying that a person has posted under a different moniker when the writing style, spelling errors and accusations are worded almost exactly the same? When this person was asked outright, he denied posting earlier under a different name. THAT person has an honesty problem and also claims to be LDS. I believe that this Article of Faith would apply to him. Does a person like this represent the LDS faith?

Rufus

I don't know. Does BarryK, Badwolf123, Johan Henze, and HenryPorter (all one poster) represent mainstream Christianity?

 

[Rescued One]

Ah yes. I play word games but you declare truth. How nice. Well, if that's the case, then you can go on believing that my beliefs are incompatible with the 8th AoF. No amount of evidence to prove that opinion false would cause you to change it anyway. At least, nothing I have ever said in this forum since I got here has caused you to change any of your twisted views of Mormonism, so I have zero cause to believe that trying in this instance will bear any fruit. Phoebe Ann = truth speaker. TasteforTruth = word game player. Have it your way, highness.

Your claim that the Bible is considered 100% truth in LDS teachings and a sufficient guide for exaltation is bogus. I have shown otherwise.

 

[TasteForTruth]

Your claim that the Bible is considered 100% truth in LDS teachings and a sufficient guide for exaltation is bogus. I have shown otherwise.

As I said, nothing I say, post, quote, compile, or otherwise produce will affect your opinion in the slightest here, so I see no reason to continue this discussion. Chalk this one up as whatever kind of victory for yourself as you see fit.


P.S. your claims of what I have claimed have... shall we say... "morphed" over time. That also makes it difficult to carry on a rational discussion.

 

[Rescued One]

As I said, nothing I say, post, quote, compile, or otherwise produce will affect your opinion in the slightest here, so I see no reason to continue this discussion. Chalk this one up as whatever kind of victory for yourself as you see fit.


P.S. your claims of what I have claimed have... shall we say... "morphed" over time. That also makes it difficult to carry on a rational discussion.

I don't need any victories in any of my threads. I don't post to receive accolades.