Modernization of The Orthodox Church

[buzuxi02]

Really why is that?

When you change the liturgy and traditions you drive everyone away. You will not retain the youth, and you will drive away the rest of the laity as well.

My priest recounted a story of an elderly man that came to see him for confession. He left Greece as a young man and arriving here in the States literally never stepped foot in a church for like over 50 years. In his youth he regularly attended Church, but once he emigrated that was it.

He finally stepped foot back into an Orthodox Church , because for whatever reason something made him go one Suday. When he met with our priest he was crying, it brought him back to his youth, everything around him changed, the society changed, but the Church did not. He recognized the chanting, the smell of incense, the icons, the antidoron, he was spiritually transported back to a time he thought was long lost.


In another Sunday our priest brought to our intention a particular name that was commemorated that Sunday for the memorial service. That individual died 53 years before in Australia. This is the uniqueness of our Liturgy, it does not change. That a man dying 53 years ago in another continent, his memory still being remembered and still being prayed for in America by his offspring who now reside here.

 

[buzuxi02]

At our parish, but if you talk to Orthodox at other parishes in other parts of the country or even state, you hear a LOT of complaints about teens and young adults leaving the Orthodox Church....it's a problem in all communions, even ours. I've had conversations with people at our parish at coffee hour where they've said their teens have left the Church since they moved away, etc. But overall, our parish is pretty blessed with good kids and parents and lots of faith

Usually young people leave the church once they start going to college and dnt return till the are married wth children of their own. Even the ones i know that do not attend or stopped attending, do not join other groups. If they will return, its back to Orthodoxy or nothing at all. Likewise its not like we have 99% attendance of people who are over 60 neither.

 

[seashale76]

Tell her she's not missing anything. I grew up in churches where everything was sermon centric, rock ballads were considered worship music, and I've had more than my fair share of forced participation in youth groups. There is nothing new, different, or exciting about any of it. If that's all you have, you will eventually see the pointlessness of it and leave the faith altogether.

1. You oscillate from zoning out during the sermon to focusing on everything said so you can criticize it later.
2. If you hate the music you will obsessively focus on it. Many an evangelical church has broken up over musical differences.
3. The majority of the spiritual abuse I've had to deal with has come out of my participation in youth activities. I could write a book.
^You get nothing edifying out of any of it, and the complaint sessions inevitably occur once everyone is buckled in and have yet to leave the parking lot.

 

[Dorothea]

Tell her she's not missing anything. I grew up in churches where everything was sermon centric, rock ballads were considered worship music, and I've had more than my fair share of forced participation in youth groups. There is nothing new, different, or exciting about any of it. If that's all you have, you will eventually see the pointlessness of it and leave the faith altogether.

1. You oscillate from zoning out during the sermon to focusing on everything said so you can criticize it later.
2. If you hate the music you will obsessively focus on it. Many an evangelical church has broken up over musical differences.
3. The majority of the spiritual abuse I've had to deal with has come out of my participation in youth activities. I could write a book.
^You get nothing edifying out of any of it, and the complaint sessions inevitably occur once everyone is buckled in and have yet to leave the parking lot.

When I was reading The Historic Church by Fr. John Morris (you all NEED to read it!), he talked about all the different Christian communities that splintered and formed and reformed after the Reformation. One part I remember reading was about one Christian group called The Church of Christ. Anyhow, their sect was so serious about anything outside the bible isn't allowed, that one community split over the fact that they had Sunday school classes, and since that wasn't in the bible, they split from that group to start another one.

I actually laughed when I read that. I know that's a bad thing to do. But I was laughing because I thought it was so ridiculous.

 

[seashale76]

When I was reading The Historic Church by Fr. John Morris (you all NEED to read it!), he talked about all the different Christian communities that splintered and formed and reformed after the Reformation. One part I remember reading was about one Christian group called The Church of Christ. Anyhow, their sect was so serious about anything outside the bible isn't allowed, that one community split over the fact that they had Sunday school classes, and since that wasn't in the bible, they split from that group to start another one.

I actually laughed when I read that. I know that's a bad thing to do. But I was laughing because I thought it was so ridiculous.

Way back when, I dated a Church of Christ guy for a while. I was literally put through a q and a session at his parents' kitchen table over my beliefs. I went to church with him once, and I didn't like it. I also recall asking him questions out of genuine curiosity, and he got very defensive about everything. His pastor believed that dinosaurs were a hoax and spread that belief around to his congregation- and that was just the tip of the iceberg.

I even remember his mother having a fit over the thought of her son going to a Church of Christ, while out of town, that had a fellowship hall, as that was not biblical. I also witnessed the familial insanity that ensued when one of his cousins married a Catholic. The whispered vitriol by that side of the family at the wedding was appalling. As I recall, his family also wanted him to date a particular Church of Christ girl the entire time we were going out. I was apparently an inappropriate influence. Everyone not them was hell bound. It wasn't outright stated in my case, but heavily implied. They made no bones about outright stating that was the case for people, such as Catholics.

 

[Dorothea]

Way back when, I dated a Church of Christ guy for a while. I was literally put through a q and a session at his parents' kitchen table over my beliefs. I went to church with him once, and I didn't like it. I also recall asking him questions out of genuine curiosity, and he got very defensive about everything. His pastor believed that dinosaurs were a hoax and spread that belief around to his congregation- and that was just the tip of the iceberg.

I even remember his mother having a fit over the thought of her son going to a Church of Christ, while out of town, that had a fellowship hall, as that was not biblical. I also witnessed the familial insanity that ensued when one of his cousins married a Catholic. The whispered vitriol by that side of the family at the wedding was appalling. As I recall, his family also wanted him to date a particular Church of Christ girl the entire time we were going out. I was apparently an inappropriate influence. Everyone not them was hell bound. It wasn't outright stated in my case, but heavily implied. They made no bones about outright stating that was the case for people, such as Catholics.

Yeah, I think he mentioned the fellowship hall as another reason for a break in their group. Crazy.

Wow. That must have been a VERY stressful and tense relationship and experience. Oy. :o

 

[E.C.]

I understand this is a big problem with "ethnic" parishes outside the ethnic homeland. They are using the churches for a wrong purpose...or at lest using them mostly for a purpose of preserving their ethnic identity...which never was they are ment for. But, you shouldn't just give up on them. I don't know how, from this perspective, but that kind of behavior must be corrected. Priests should do their job in cases you mention. People are an inert beings, it takes some work to correct their path.

It takes a great deal of time. More importantly it requires that both clergy and laity accept reality.

I remember my dad telling me once of an Irish Catholic parish somewhere out in the middle of Eastern Washington State. This parish originally was named for a European saint of some sort and founded to serve the predominately Irish community around it. Today, it is no longer named after that saint. It was re-named about fifteen years ago after a Hispanic saint and they started doing the Mass in Spanish because fifteen years ago they realized that 95/100 Catholics in the area are Mexicans!

See, that kind of "change" is a good thing and is what (my honest opinion) the Orthodox Church in the USA needs. My old parish back home was founded by former Eastern Catholics who became Orthodox in 1900 and consecrated by St. Tikhon. In the 1980s the parish was nearly shut down, but the remaining dozen or so people there decided they would bring in a full-time priest and hope for the best. It became the first Orthodox church to have an all-ENGLISH Liturgy and had to move closer to the city and, if I remember correctly, is now one of the larger parishes in the state with about 100-150 people on Sundays.

At our parish, but if you talk to Orthodox at other parishes in other parts of the country or even state, you hear a LOT of complaints about teens and young adults leaving the Orthodox Church....it's a problem in all communions, even ours. I've had conversations with people at our parish at coffee hour where they've said their teens have left the Church since they moved away, etc. But overall, our parish is pretty blessed with good kids and parents and lots of faith

Part of it is being surrounded by an extremely nihilistic culture that simply does not care for religion at all. The US is not becoming secular; it is becoming nihilistic. The difference is that religion still plays a part, albeit minor, in secularism, but not nihilism.
Why do people not care for religion? A few reasons. Hypocrisy of leaders and individuals within a religious community, lack of DEEP education in any sect, difficult questions not being answered, not understanding the worship practices, etc etc. Honestly, the big one is American society simply does not care for religion. That does not mean that it is for or against religion, but rather suffers from indifference which, in my opinion, is far worse than being against religion.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I'm noticing that some of the kids my age seem to not be interested in The Orthodox Faith, simply because it's all tradition. Whereas if we look at The Western Protestant Churches, it's a sermon and music and stuff.


What do you guys think about this issue? I personally think The Divine Liturgy and all our services are beautiful, I would not support modernization.

I don't mean any offense by this, especially to you George, but I think younger adults and teens are drawn to Protestant churches with pop music worship and cute sermons because of a lack of maturity.

That being said, a few weeks ago I was talking with my priest who was invited to speak at my old evangelical church about Orthodoxy. When I told him I was a little surprised he said something to the effect of "Don't be, more and more people are doing as you are and realizing the original church is still around. People are getting tired of reinventing the wheel and so they're leaving evangelicalism and Protestantism." By reinventing the wheel he meant having to conjure up a new sermons or emotionally evoking worship set every week.

I love that the Divine Liturgy is timeless, change is unneeded because it transcends time. In other areas of the church I see "modernization", I look at groups like the OCF and the OCMC and think they're just as effective, if not more so, than their Protestant counterparts.

I've heard a number of people from different backgrounds and biases say that the number of those exiting Protestant and Evangelicalism is on the rise while Orthodoxy grows. Now I'm sure that there's a loss in the transfer, meaning not 100% of those leaving Protestantism are arriving at Orthodoxy but Orthodoxy is growing nonetheless.

In fact, just last Saturday after the Liturgy I was sitting with my priest and the subdeacon and they were discussing a church that was for sale because they're outgrowing the building they're in.

 

[George95]

I don't mean any offense by this, especially to you George, but I think younger adults and teens are drawn to Protestant churches with pop music worship and cute sermons because of a lack of maturity.

That being said, a few weeks ago I was talking with my priest who was invited to speak at my old evangelical church about Orthodoxy. When I told him I was a little surprised he said something to the effect of "Don't be, more and more people are doing as you are and realizing the original church is still around. People are getting tired of reinventing the wheel and so they're leaving evangelicalism and Protestantism." By reinventing the wheel he meant having to conjure up a new sermons or emotionally evoking worship set every week.

I love that the Divine Liturgy is timeless, change is unneeded because it transcends time. In other areas of the church I see "modernization", I look at groups like the OCF and the OCMC and think they're just as effective, if not more so, than their Protestant counterparts.

I've heard a number of people from different backgrounds and biases say that the number of those exiting Protestant and Evangelicalism is on the rise while Orthodoxy grows. Now I'm sure that there's a loss in the transfer, meaning not 100% of those leaving Protestantism are arriving at Orthodoxy but Orthodoxy is growing nonetheless.

In fact, just last Saturday after the Liturgy I was sitting with my priest and the subdeacon and they were discussing a church that was for sale because they're outgrowing the building they're in.

Hey BF,

No problem, I take no offense to your statement, but I do want to comment on it: It's the music and the lights and the free t-shirts(a mega church in my area gives out free t-shirts around Easter I guess for programs) that draw all the kids there. Me personally, The Divine Liturgy is something that I love to experience, the incense, the chants and tones, the processions, the ornateness!

I mean come on, who doesn't love The Holy Week Services?

 

[Mariya116]

I agree with above.

"Modernization" isn't really explained.

That is why I did not answer, either.

 

[Mariya116]

Kids aren't leaving our church because it's too "traditional" they are leaving because their parents aren't instilling in them need to go every Sunday and dedicate your whole life to Christ, even when out of Church. There are so many parents out there who could bring their kids every Sunday, but cave in to themselves or to their kids if they don't feel like going, and what does that say to the kids?

Also, the other big problem is ethnno-centrism. The idea that you're Orthodox because you're _______ ethnicity doesn't lead kids to truly understand and appreciate Orthodoxy, and does, in fact, lead to lower attendance rates as studies have shown. Ethnic identity is important, but you aren't Orthodox because you're ______ ethnicity. You're Orthodox first and that ethnicity second, unfortunately so many families don't get this and see attending Liturgy as an ethnic ritual like dancing, celebrating national holidays and such.

I agree with both 100%.

I am of Russian descent but have lived in the US over half my life. At work, I must associate with Russians 95% of the time, I have next to zero interaction with Americans and I miss them! I listen to AM radio on the way to work and back just to hear folks speak English with no accent! And when I go to church on Sunday it has to be some Russian enclave, too? No way, get me out of here, I had enough Russians during the work week.

That's why I keep going to my American RO church in Passaic, NJ. I have such a problem getting up for the 9:00 am liturgy but still, if I'll go to any church it will be that one, it just draws me in, it's a very powerful presence and force in my life, this church.

It should also be added that ethnocentrism isn't unique to the Orthodox church - you have Polish and Slovak Catholic churches, for example, which are much the same way and just as annoying.

No 1 is true as well, I fight a losing battle with myself to make myself go to church on Sundays, but my mother doesn't want to go when I invited and is secretly glad when I don't go either, she feels I should get some sleep instead.

 

[buzuxi02]

Mariya,


The problem is russians cant stand russians. When I was younger, a parish catechism teacher asked the young people present whether they would prefer the chanting done in greek or english. Even though all the teens were born in America not one of them opted for english usage. This still holds true today even with the converts.

 

[Mariya116]

Mariya,


The problem is russians cant stand russians.

FYI I can't stand Greeks either. Especially fat ugly Greek men sitting idle at diners and undressing young women patrons with their eyes.

 

[Adaephon]

FYI I can't stand Greeks either. Especially fat ugly Greek men sitting idle at diners and undressing young women patrons with their eyes.

Old men at gyms seeing young women is even worse. I swear, they don't care who sees them do a double take and stare, slack-jawed (sometimes literally) at some 18-year old girls butt. Even 14-year old boys are more discreet.

 

[buzuxi02]

Not really Mariya,

Not many young women come into diners nowadays. They prefer the hipper places like Panera bread and TGI Friday's. Bagel stores also draws the young ones for lunch.

 

[127.0.0.1]

I'm noticing that some of the kids my age seem to not be interested in The Orthodox Faith, simply because it's all tradition. Whereas if we look at The Western Protestant Churches, it's a sermon and music and stuff.

That's kind of a vague question. What do you mean by modernization?

Changes have been made in the past. Acolytes weren't added until the middle-ages. Of course if a change is going to occur it would be for a spiritual benefit, nothing to do with modernizing.

If music and stuff is what gets your friends, then they're not looking for Orthodoxy, let alone God.

 

[Adaephon]

Anyways, from experience I can say young people find Protestant youth group and services just as dull as some might find liturgy. Evangelical services are, in practice, just as repetitive and the same week to week as any Liturgy.

Youth group becomes boring when the young people, who generally aren't complete idiots, grow tired of being endlessly condescended and patronized to and weary of the superficiality. By high school, most youth group people are totally jaded, show up drunk or hung over, chat the entire time, don't sing, and doze off during the talk. Because they've realized for years by then that it's boring and they've seen it all a good dozen times before.

 

[E.C.]

The problem is russians cant stand russians. When I was younger, a parish catechism teacher asked the young people present whether they would prefer the chanting done in greek or english. Even though all the teens were born in America not one of them opted for english usage. This still holds true today even with the converts.

I can understand Greek teenagers wanting Greek chant because when I was still Roman Catholic one of the many reasons why I looked forward to Christmas was to hear "Adeste Fidelis" in Latin.

I just can not understand why other converts would. I am a convert and I have a very simple rule: if I don't understand it, I don't sing it. Perhaps it is an East Coast thing because most of the parishes with large numbers of converts on the West Coast tend to have the majority of the chanting and singing in English.

 

[SeraphimSarov]

I am a convert and I have a very simple rule: if I don't understand it, I don't sing it.

 

[Dorothea]

I can understand Greek teenagers wanting Greek chant because when I was still Roman Catholic one of the many reasons why I looked forward to Christmas was to hear "Adeste Fidelis" in Latin.

I just can not understand why other converts would. I am a convert and I have a very simple rule: if I don't understand it, I don't sing it. Perhaps it is an East Coast thing because most of the parishes with large numbers of converts on the West Coast tend to have the majority of the chanting and singing in English.

Yes, I've been told by two priests and some friends who've lived on the east coast and gone to the churches there (no matter if they were Greek, Antiochian, or in some of my friends' cases, Coptic Orthodox ones), more of them were quite ethnic-centric over there. Especially in New England area, apparently.