Modernization of The Orthodox Church

[Cappadocious]

I love the Liturgy, but a family member of mine does not like how everything is nearly the same every Sunday. She goes to her friend's churches and Youth Groups and all sometimes.

How old is this family member?

 

[George95]

Church should definitely have Youth Groups, but that doesn't mean they get a separate service or get to leave in the middle. Even the little ones need to stay for the entire Liturgy.

As for Liturgy, if you look at the past 2,000 years, while the Liturgy has changed, it hasn't been all that much, at least for that length of time. You aren't going to get a modernization.

In fact, I think our Liturgies need to be done fully, not cut short in any way or breezed through. In addition, we shouldn't just leave quickly after its over, if possible, a Church should have coffee hour, then Sunday School/Youth Group time.

As for "Youth Group" ideas, you have the OCF for college age students, and those in college towns should always have a chapter if there are enough students. For the Antiochians you have Teen Soyo for the teenagers. Then you also have programs in some Greek Churches for the youngest ones such as an Acolytes group for boys, or a Handmaidens/Myrrh-bearers/Altar Guild group for little girls.

Families should be encouraged to spend more time at their churches as able. If its a big enough church, a lunch after the service should be provided every Sunday as a potluck. For the adults, it could be good to have a catechism class, a Sunday School class for kids. On top of that, if its big enough, there should be individual groups such as Teen Soyo, OCF, Acolytes, Myrrh-bearers and other such groups. For adults you could have a men's night for men and philoptochos/women's night for women.

As for worship, you don't really touch the worship service and its structure.

Kids aren't leaving our church because it's too "traditional" they are leaving because their parents aren't instilling in them need to go every Sunday and dedicate your whole life to Christ, even when out of Church. There are so many parents out there who could bring their kids every Sunday, but cave in to themselves or to their kids if they don't feel like going, and what does that say to the kids?

Also, the other big problem is ethnno-centrism. The idea that you're Orthodox because you're _______ ethnicity doesn't lead kids to truly understand and appreciate Orthodoxy, and does, in fact, lead to lower attendance rates as studies have shown. Ethnic identity is important, but you aren't Orthodox because you're ______ ethnicity. You're Orthodox first and that ethnicity second, unfortunately so many families don't get this and see attending Liturgy as an ethnic ritual like dancing, celebrating national holidays and such.

You just made my day with your post, just spot on.

 

[George95]

How old is this family member?

She's 16.

 

[88Devin07]

This times a million. I never go to the Greek and Russian cultural parish events, I'm just not interested in either at all, really. I think it's a big problem when parishes, in the USA for me, focus more on being all about "Let's be Greek/Russian/Serbian/Etc. all together" instead of being about, well, catholic church.

I have no problem with cultural parish events, I think they're a great thing. People SHOULD celebrate their ethnic identity. But I don't think that it should be something that excludes others, or that comes before being Orthodox. The purpose of cultural parish events like Greek Festivals, Slavic Festivals, Serbian Festivals etc... Should all be to evangelize, not to make money, that should be secondary.

My old parish has a Greek Festival every year, and only a small amount of the parish is Greek, most of us that help out (from the parish itself) are Americans, Russians, Ukrainians and Romanians. The whole point in it being "Greek" is for one, Greek festivals are more common across the nation, and two, because most American Christians know their Bible and every single place mentioned in the New Testament is "Greek Orthodox" except Rome & a couple others in the West. Even Antioch, Jerusalem & Alexandria are all known as the Greek Orthodox Church of __________. Also, all the places in Greece mentioned in the Bible are still Orthodox to today, and when you read of St. Paul's missionary journey's, most were to Greek or Hellenized places, and in fact, the New Testament itself was written originally in Greek.

The primary focus of such festivals and events should be to get people to the Church to hear Christ's word and learn about the Orthodox Church.

 

[George95]

I have no problem with cultural parish events, I think they're a great thing. People SHOULD celebrate their ethnic identity. But I don't think that it should be something that excludes others, or that comes before being Orthodox. The purpose of cultural parish events like Greek Festivals, Slavic Festivals, Serbian Festivals etc... Should all be to evangelize, not to make money, that should be secondary.

My old parish has a Greek Festival every year, and only a small amount of the parish is Greek, most of us that help out (from the parish itself) are Americans, Russians, Ukrainians and Romanians. The whole point in it being "Greek" is for one, Greek festivals are more common across the nation, and two, because most American Christians know their Bible and every single place mentioned in the New Testament is "Greek Orthodox" except Rome & a couple others in the West. Even Antioch, Jerusalem & Alexandria are all known as the Greek Orthodox Church of __________. Also, all the places in Greece mentioned in the Bible are still Orthodox to today, and when you read of St. Paul's missionary journey's, most were to Greek or Hellenized places, and in fact, the New Testament itself was written originally in Greek.

The primary focus of such festivals and events should be to get people to the Church to hear Christ's word and learn about the Orthodox Church.

Of course, our church does Greek Festivals to fund the church for the year and get our church known. Additionally, I'm the only kid my age and actually the only person that nearly stays in the church doing the tours and watching everything for nearly the whole festival.

But for the idea of making the liturgy contemporary, I'm not a fan for it.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I'm noticing that some of the kids my age seem to not be interested in The Orthodox Faith, simply because it's all tradition. Whereas if we look at The Western Protestant Churches, it's a sermon and music and stuff.

What do you guys think about this issue? I personally think The Divine Liturgy and all our services are beautiful, I would not support modernization.

If I may say,

I always found it interesting to see the ways that people who're young adults are leaving the Church in droves anyhow - regardless of whether it's in Eastern Christianity or Protestant Christianity and others. There was actually another thread that focused on the issue of how a lot of people have been in extensive debate on what is..or isn't "religion" that God doesn't like - and many noting that so many end up starving because Christ gets lost in the mix. The thread where discussion occurred was entitled "Why I Hate Religion, But I Love Jesus" video + Orthodox rebuttal

And on the same token, there are many staying faithful and quite engaged. They're being salt/light where they're at and involved in their communities - seeing the relevance of what others in history went through in representing Christ during their time (from the Desert Fathers/Monastics to the Early CHurch Fathers ..to communities of believers suffering persecution). A lot of it often seems to be a matter of others staying because they have been trained to not look for entertainment as the basis for learning - and others finding ways to take what they learn/apply it in practical ways to everyday life. It's not as if you have to get rid of Divine Liturgy in order to connect with young adults since a lot of the battles seem to be an issue of translation......taking from what's Ancient and bringing it into the Modern World in a way others can understand/appreciate.


It seems to shock a lot of people when they find someone who's Orthodox and yet into rap, hiphop, poetry, spoken word and other elements found commonly in young adult culture - yet those same individuals who others find to be oddities are strengthened in some ways more than others because they have found ways to contexualize their faith in ways that can reach the people of their day.... The folks at "Ancient Christian Defense" are one example that has been encouraging (IMHO).

There are many who stay where they are at and yet it is not noted as often as the people who leave. One of the most inspiring examples I've always been blessed by - in light of others within Oriential Orthodoxy who have a visible presence within the community and strong young adults - ae those with HG Bishop Angaelos and the Coptic Orthodox Church Centre UK. They're actively involved in community endeavors such as helping the homeless, community service and a host of other things. I was glad for Bishop Angaelos in what he did with youth and the ways he imparts to so many young adults when it comes to passionately serving the Lord , as seen in the work he did with establishing the ‘Coptic City Mission', a group of youth who visit the homeless on the streets of London every week, distributing food, clothes and a comforting word. And yet they still do things young adults can connect with like sports.

Their YouTube page called Coptic Youth Channel has had some really excellent study material/videos on what goes on with their youth and how they're reaching others.

"A Church without Youth is a Church without a future." -- H.H. Pope Shenouda III.

Bishop Moussa talk to Coptic Youth about media
Guys Talk Season 2 Eps 1 -Coptic Youth

​

Additionally, came across this and really enjoyed seeing the ways this sister broke down Liturgy - the ways it is often misunderstood and the ways that people not only forget the reasons behind why Liturgy is done - but the ways that many in Orthodoxy often miss the ability for adaptation because they don't know the roots of traditions. It's a very interesting commentary on the historical development of the Liturgy by Sister Vassa (Larin), given at St. Nicholas Orthodox Cathedral in Washington, DC. Very well done

• --"Sister Vassa (Larin) on Divine Liturgy and History" ( )
• --"Sr. Dr. Vassa Larin (Orthodox) - Ancient Faith Radio" ( )
• --Sister Vassa (Larin): Orthodoxy is Not A Religion of Fear ( )

What she noted with young adults was truly powerful and I was so glad she shared as she did....

 

[nestoj]

This times a million. I never go to the Greek and Russian cultural parish events, I'm just not interested in either at all, really. I think it's a big problem when parishes, in the USA for me, focus more on being all about "Let's be Greek/Russian/Serbian/Etc. and pretend we're an outpost of the motherland and stare awkwardly at those weirdos who don't belong here" instead of being about, well, catholic church.

I understand this is a big problem with "ethnic" parishes outside the ethnic homeland. They are using the churches for a wrong purpose...or at lest using them mostly for a purpose of preserving their ethnic identity...which never was they are ment for. But, you shouldn't just give up on them. I don't know how, from this perspective, but that kind of behavior must be corrected. Priests should do their job in cases you mention. People are an inert beings, it takes some work to correct their path.

 

[George95]

And well the priest at our parish doesn't really help with issues at our church.

 

[Cappadocious]

She's 16.

Aren't 16 year olds usually interested in vapid colorful diversions?

Some churches 'respond' to that by turning themselves into vapid colorful diversions.

And then kids grow up and leave them behind, or remain adolescent, having the mind of a child and the faith of a frightened old one.

 

[buzuxi02]

I don't know of any young person that wants to change the Church. And in my area I don't know of any Protestant church that's thriving. Regardless of how they worship, Protestant churches are considered more like cults just like the local Jehovah's witness hall.

 

[George95]

I don't know of any young person that wants to change the Church. And in my area I don't know of any Protestant church that's thriving. Regardless of how they worship, Protestant churches are considered more like cults just like the local Jehovah's witness hall.

Really why is that?

 

[MariaRegina]

Like the joke about "how many Orthodox does it take to change a light bulb?"

To which the answer is "none! How dare you change that light bulb, it was donated by my great-grandfather in 1926"

I thought the answer was:

"None! Were there light bulbs in 18th Century Russia?"

Is outrage.

We use candles, beeswax candles (not petroleum-based paraffin "wax"), or extra virgin olive oil (not from Italy)!

 

[Dorothea]

Our priest sometimes does like a 5 minute sermon before Holy Communion depending on the Sunday.

Man, that's short. My priest talks for a pretty long time. The average is 20 minutes, and he does it without note cards or anything. I love listening to his homilies.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

At our parish, but if you talk to Orthodox at other parishes in other parts of the country or even state, you hear a LOT of complaints about teens and young adults leaving the Orthodox Church....it's a problem in all communions, even ours. I've had conversations with people at our parish at coffee hour where they've said their teens have left the Church since they moved away, etc. But overall, our parish is pretty blessed with good kids and parents and lots of faith

Those Western protestant churches are hemorrhaging members as well. Perhaps the situation is different in Greece (which really wouldn't surprise me), but I know loads of people my age, which isn't that far from your own, who are very devout Orthodox here in America.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I can't imagine many people voting for change in the Orthodox Church? Isn't that the main reason folks convert to Orthodoxy----the fact that it is so static and unchanging in worship and praxis, etc.? I thought that was the draw? the words "orthodox" and "change" are not very compatible! LOL

 

[truefiction1]

I can't imagine many people voting for change in the Orthodox Church? Isn't that the main reason folks convert to Orthodoxy----the fact that it is so static and unchanging in worship and praxis, etc.? I thought that was the draw? the words "orthodox" and "change" are not very compatible! LOL

We Orthodox should absolutely embark upon constant change...


of our hearts (i.e. by bearing the fruits of unceasing repentance).


But our liturgical practices can remain as they are and that would be just fine.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I can't imagine many people voting for change in the Orthodox Church? Isn't that the main reason folks convert to Orthodoxy----the fact that it is so static and unchanging in worship and praxis, etc.? I thought that was the draw? the words "orthodox" and "change" are not very compatible! LOL

yep, it's because of Orthodoxy's 2000 year stability that I think is one of the main draws. I think Vatican II tried to modernize the Mass, to keep the youth, and it drove them away.

 

[rusmeister]

Voting can only be done by a body that agrees something is wrong and needs to be examined and (possibly) changed. That can be a synod, or a parish council, and they may change a practice that is one of the local church (or Church, for a Synod) - but they can't change Doctrine and they mustn't, on their own even try to monkey with the Liturgy. In e Church, we are not a democracy, we are a theocracy, and we don't "vote as representatives of the King".

As to "modernization", it means, in short, to make a thing relevant only to one specific time - the passing moment, and when that moment passes, the "modernized" thing becomes irrelevant. Anybody watch Baloo in Disney's "The Jungle Book"? How relevant is is hippie speech now to people trying to "be cool". We understand him, but the hippie talk - exactly what Disney made "modern", instead of sticking to the classic, is now a joke.

Or the ultra classic line of Prince Philip from "Sleeping Beauty" (as long as I'm on a Disney roll) when told he must follow tradition and marry a princess:

"But Father - This is the 14th century!"

To me, "modern" is an insult. It means "fashion", "fad". The same root as the Latin "moda", "fashion".
In Russian the word is "sovremenny". "so" means "with", as in "co-" (co-found, etc) and "vremya" (time) - that which passes with its time.
Either way, it is a thing doomed to become outdated.

Bellbottoms were a fashion. Promise Keepers seem to be fading into complete irrelevance, after seeming highly relevant fifteen-twenty years ago. Dreadnoughts were very modern warships a hundred years ago. Most things under the sun have been modern. And where are they now?

 

[MariaRegina]

We Orthodox should absolutely embark upon constant change...


of our hearts (i.e. by bearing the fruits of unceasing repentance).


But our liturgical practices can remain as they are and that would be just fine.

Wow! Your first sentence scared me.

I had just finished reading HB John's Enthronement Speech, and I was not impressed.

http://www.antiochian.org/sites/antiochian.org/files/march_2013_word.pdf

In paragraph 8, there is this comment made by HB John:

"Modernity is a blessing that calls us to revive the fundamentals of our worship and teachings, and also to differentiate between the one Holy Tradition and the many secondary traditions and practices to which we often cling."

This bothers me. Coming from Roman Catholicism, after Vatican II, we were constantly told to distinguish between what could not be changed THE BIG Ts and what could be changed THE LITTLE ts.

We Roman Catholics were told that the Mass (Divine Liturgy) could NOT be changed as it was a BIG T, but guess what, in 1963 and in 1973, it was changed, and it continues to be changed.

Now HG John appears to be repeating that same destructive mantra. Lord have mercy.
Maybe what he said got lost in translation. Let us pray.

 

[rusmeister]

It is true that a man (a silly man) might make change itself his object or ideal. But as an ideal, change itself becomes unchangeable. If the change-worshipper wishes to estimate his own progress, he must be sternly loyal to the ideal of change; he must not begin to flirt gaily with the ideal of monotony. Progress itself cannot progress. It is worth remark, in passing, that when Tennyson, in a wild and rather weak manner, welcomed the idea of infinite alteration in society, he instinctively took a metaphor which suggests an imprisoned tedium. He wrote-- "Let the great world spin for ever down the ringing grooves of change." He thought of change itself as an unchangeable groove; and so it is. Change is about the narrowest and hardest groove that a man can get into. The main point here, however, is that this idea of a fundamental alteration in the standard is one of the things that make thought about the past or future simply impossible. The theory of a complete change of standards in human history does not merely deprive us of the pleasure of honouring our fathers; it deprives us even of the more modern and aristocratic pleasure of despising them.

GK Chesterton, Orthodoxy
http://www.gkc.org.uk/gkc/books/ortho14.txt

There is much more in context, but people in forums don't like the posting of LOOONG posts.