Masturbation and other sexual activities

[Wryetui]

Hello everyone. I want to know your opinion about this taboo subject in particular and I hope it doesn't break the rules of the forum. Do you think masturbation is a mortal sin? Do you think that you are going to hell for practising it?

 

[GregConstantine]

We do not have "mortal" sins in Orthodoxy. That is a RC thing.

As for your question that is a difficult one but I would say the act of touching yourself is rarely unaccompanied by thoughts and desires of lust, that's where you start to delve into the area of sinning.

 

[gzt]

It is a grave matter that should be confessed.

 

[Honest Al]

I believe masturbation is very bad, very harmful, and yes, it will keep you out of heaven.

"Nothing impure will ever enter it [heaven]." {Revelation 21:27 NIV}

 

[ArmyMatt]

it's a sin because it is a selfish act, and therefore lust.

 

[SuperCloud]

I find questions about the morality of masturbation almost always negate the narrowed focus of what is being masturbated to. Or I mean by that the following question of what is being masturbated to.

I'm also persuaded most adults live varying degrees of a "sheltered" life, and with the exception of saints and holy monks and nuns perhaps... most all of us staunchly practice deceiving ourselves.

So it logically follows to me, from questions of masturbation, as to what an individual is masturbating to?

Are we talking about a pedophiles fantasies? Explicitly child inappropriate content? Gay inappropriate content? The fantasy of abducting a woman and raping her? What?

I stay away from heroin and child-like inappropriate content (even of inappropriate content actresses that are adults but playing the dressed up role of a child). I don't have addictions to either. The great Satanic lie is this: "People are born that way, therefore, you can keep drinking from the cup and not be affected or effected physiologically."

I'm ambivalent--like I am with casino gaming or "freedom of speech"--about legalized inappropriate content, the legalization of inappropriate contentography. If you were to ask me what my heart of hearts, deep down, believes about US culture and inappropriate content, I would say this. That when inappropriate content was legalized in the US, and overtime as it became engrained in culture of America, it transformed the social and moral fabric of the USA. I'd say that even whilst supporting inappropriate content remaining legal.

I'm also of the view legalized inappropriate content--heterosexual inappropriate content originally--is ultimately what led to gay marriage. It's a lot more about heterosexuals and their post-inappropriate content moral views about premarital sex, masturbation being awesome, abortion, divorce, the viagra wonder and so on. Their militant views that celibacy is insane and near impossible (sounds just like a heroin addict or pedophile addict towards their addiction).

So, if a person is masturbating to child inappropriate content I would view that as a very grave sin. Or at minimum it is opening the door towards a road of grave sin.

I think not asking the question of what is being masturbated to is part of the great art and practice of self deception, and something you will find common place in the post-legalized inappropriate content culture of the United States.

But most masturbation is probably typical of the human nature and going to happen like telling small lies or eating more sweets than you should. I mean sexual gratification is pleasing like eating a chocolate cake. And it's typical of humans that we gravitate towards those things that greatly pleasure us. I do. I can't believe Coptics fast for most of the year. That's some Spartan like disciplining of our cravings.

 

[rusmeister]

I'd remind visitors that this is the Orthodox sub-forum. Non-Orthodox members are welcome to ask about Orthodox teaching, but not themselves to teach.

It's a serious sin. It is not an arbitrary violation of an arbitrary law, but the wrongful use of the sexual function outside of its legitimate and intended purposes, which are entirely and only within the marriage bed.

 

[SuperCloud]

I'd remind visitors that this is the Orthodox sub-forum. Non-Orthodox members are welcome to ask about Orthodox teaching, but not themselves to teach.

It's a serious sin. It is not an arbitrary violation of an arbitrary law, but the wrongful use of the sexual function outside of its legitimate and intended purposes, which are entirely and only within the marriage bed.

My last paragraph wasn't meant to be taken as a teaching or intended to teach. It was just an observation of how humans typically behave in pleasure seeking.

 

[E.C.]

Yeah, we don't do the whole mortal/venial sin thing. Go to Rome for that

However, it is still a sin and therefore something to be confessed. Some sins are more severe than others and chances are that masturbation would fall into the "sins that are more severe than others" category if such a category really existed in the Orthodox understanding of sin.

Sin is sin. Confess them. We can't make a judgment on what gets you a one-way ticket to hell for two reasons: 1) We are not God. Only God judges. Simple. Period. End of story. 2) Whenever we are in a state of being without God in our life we are, according to some Fathers, in hell.

 

[Wryetui]

I do confess it all the times I go to my spiritual father, he is a young priest (31 yo), new in my parish and he understands young people better. He did say that this is a very bad sin and it's a "hell sending" sin, because it is just a way to bedraggle yourself lead by a satanic deception. I made this thread to know your opinion about it and now I think that we as a church have it very clear, it is a woudrous sin after all.

Supercloud, I don't hold your point of view, there is no healthy masturbation, it is a sin because it is a way of using sexuality that is not allowed by God and we only are driven by our sinful desires into it.

 

[SuperCloud]

Supercloud, I don't hold your point of view, there is no healthy masturbation, it is a sin because it is a way of using sexuality that is not allowed by God and we only are driven by our sinful desires into it.

I never insinuated masturbation is healthy. I thought I was pretty much indicating the opposite.

Here is my "point of view." The first and only only time I ever viewed animal inappropriate contentography was not in the sinful dens of inner-city America, nor in any crack cocaine houses. It was in the United States Marine Corps aboard a battleship during the 1st Gulf War. And it was a video sent from mainland USA to a white Marine aboard ship. And just about every Marine in our detachment watched it for entertainment. I can hazard a guess there are people that touch to this stuff. Or why else was it made?

Again, "masturbation" is vague. It says nothing as to what one masturbates to. Many secular people argue masturbation is good. I did not. And they prefer to keep the discussion of masturbation off any discussion as to what one is masturbating to. That way they can better persuade younger people that tend towards liberal progressive ideas, that masturbation and inappropriate content are a good, are healthy.

Just within the geographical boundaries of the United States alone I can confidently say that masturbation, gay inappropriate content, homosexuality, adultery, obesity, and plenty of other things exist or occur. That does not mean I have argued any of those things were healthy.

Look... I never made it to the Philippines when I was in the Marine Corps. But the many tales I heard from Marines that went there, involving sex, were so far towards the "sinful" that I would not even repeat them hear. But let men put it this way, my ears were pretty "innocent" to these sexually debauched things. The Philippines, and Filipino women, had a large reputation in the United States Marine Corps as a sexual tourism destination for American Marines being stationed there, where all and any sort sexual fetish and fantasy could be fulfilled. The women were largely viewed as no more than sexual objects.

One Marine veteran even told me he had sex with a 13 year-old Filipino girl working as a prostitute. And these are American men that if you met them in person you'd think were holier people than me.

So, yeah, I pretty much think most males touch. Or have done so. Kind of like a lot of Americans are obese or overweight.

 

[rusmeister]

My last paragraph wasn't meant to be taken as a teaching or intended to teach. It was just an observation of how humans typically behave in pleasure seeking.

No problem, SC, it's just that often visitors either miss the distinction or miss that they are posting in a congregational forum.

So you were a jarhead, huh? I was a squid, though I served before your time.

We don't think it so important exactly what one masturbates to; the whole thing is disordered; as I said, it's wrongful use of the sexual function, and the inappropriate contentography that often initiates it takes what ought to be a holy and intimate act between a married husband and wife, and make the participants and their actions an object of publc titillation.
I think you are right that it does enable public acceptance of other sexual evils. I would add that it destroys the entire culture of the family in profaning a sacred act. If the marital act is not holy, then the civilization begins to crumble, and is ultimately doomed. So I'm a little surprised that you can both see some of what inappropriate contentography does and are yet ambivalent about it. It seems as if you wanted to make an exception for "good" inappropriate contentography, to approve of some of it.

"inappropriate contentography is not a thing to be argued about with one's intellect, but to be stamped on with one's heel." GK Chesterton

 

[SuperCloud]

No problem, SC, it's just that often visitors either miss the distinction or miss that they are posting in a congregational forum.

So you were a jarhead, huh? I was a squid, though I served before your time.

We don't think it so important exactly what one masturbates to; the whole thing is disordered; as I said, it's wrongful use of the sexual function, and the inappropriate contentography that often initiates it takes what ought to be a holy and intimate act between a married husband and wife, and make the participants and their actions an object of publc titillation.
I think you are right that it does enable public acceptance of other sexual evils. I would add that it destroys the entire culture of the family in profaning a sacred act. If the marital act is not holy, then the civilization begins to crumble, and is ultimately doomed. So I'm a little surprised that you can both see some of what inappropriate contentography does and are yet ambivalent about it. It seems as if you wanted to make an exception for "good" inappropriate contentography, to approve of some of it.

"inappropriate contentography is not a thing to be argued about with one's intellect, but to be stamped on with one's heel." GK Chesterton

I thought you sailors hated when we called you that?

Yeah, I have an aunt who was in the US Army during the 1970s. Interesting. Her experiences with what was allowed or tolerated with sexual harassment in the military (or at least the Army) was much different than my experience. She hated her time in the Army. Recounts men raping women, boasting about it, and even butch lesbians raping other physically weaker women. She says she can't stand--and won't stand--being called the B word by men today because she was called it routinely in the Army starting in boot camp.

The military I was in was no where near that bad. Some good changes were made I guess.

No, with inappropriate content, I'm ambivalent about it's legalization, because although I'm not a libertarian I do have some libertarian sympathies about the government staying out of peoples personal business.

But really, the question of the OP is about whether masturbation is immoral or not--especially in the eyes of the Eastern Orthodox Fathers--and not about whether inappropriate content should be legal or not. So I was getting a bit off the specific topic or question.

 

[ArmyMatt]

But really, the question of the OP is about whether masturbation is immoral or not--especially in the eyes of the Eastern Orthodox Fathers--and not about whether inappropriate content should be legal or not. So I was getting a bit off the specific topic or question.

the short answer is yes, it is immoral and sinful.

 

[rusmeister]

I thought you sailors hated when we called you that?

Yeah, I have an aunt who was in the US Army during the 1970s. Interesting. Her experiences with what was allowed or tolerated with sexual harassment in the military (or at least the Army) was much different than my experience. She hated her time in the Army. Recounts men raping women, boasting about it, and even butch lesbians raping other physically weaker women. She says she can't stand--and won't stand--being called the B word by men today because she was called it routinely in the Army starting in boot camp.

The military I was in was no where near that bad. Some good changes were made I guess.

No, with inappropriate content, I'm ambivalent about it's legalization, because although I'm not a libertarian I do have some libertarian sympathies about the government staying out of peoples personal business.

But really, the question of the OP is about whether masturbation is immoral or not--especially in the eyes of the Eastern Orthodox Fathers--and not about whether inappropriate content should be legal or not. So I was getting a bit off the specific topic or question.

Nah, don't believe the propaganda that always taught us we were supposed to be at odds. Deep down, we all know that if a (just) war went down, we'd have each other's backs.

I would say that the general problem of women in the military is having women in the military in the first place. We have been taught that to say so is "sexism", but the modern view simply does not understand the much older and wiser view that kept women out of the military. GK Chesterton really helped me to get it. (Look guys, I said his name!! )

Being ambivalent about inappropriate content is to not sufficiently understand the nature of inappropriate content. A child, for instance, may not understand the nature of a brightly colored creature that the child finds attractive, but we older and (relatively) wiser folk know that bright colors in nature generally signal danger, and that there are poisonous and deadly creatures out there. I'm not into writing an essay on why that is right now, but if you'd like, start a question thread on why inappropriate content is bad in general (that way I'll get a lot of help in answering you on that). So I support you in keeping the focus here on the OP.

Here are a couple of helpful pages : a general view, the context of how sexual desire is to be seen and used (and so explains the context that makes masturbation a terrible wrong:
https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/spirituality/sexuality-marriage-and-family/sexuality
And a page of links to get an extensive overview and consensus on why it is wrong:
Is masturbating a sin in Orthodox Christianity? - Quora

Thanks for your polite inquiry! (We occasionally get the combative visitor, and try to refer them to St Justin's, but most are pretty good.)

 

[jckstraw72]

i think it might be one of those modern Orthodox myths that says we have no concept of mortal sins. it's easy enough to find it in Orthodox sources, and even the Apostle John tells us there are sins unto death.

 

[GregConstantine]

I think it might be one of those Orthodox myths that you need to accept a literal, 6 day creation account because a certain person said so somewhere...

All sin lead to death, some sins have different consequences ranging in their severity and immediacy, but all lead to death, not only some.

That is why we say we don't have a specific list of "mortal" sins like the RC's do.

 

[All4Christ]

So based on the Orthodox viewpoint- if masturbation is done in the context of leading towards making love between a husband and wife, is it still considered to be wrong? For example, say the spouse is doing that for / to the other, leading up to the ending of making love together. I'm definitely not saying using inappropriate contentography or even doing it individually thinking of the spouse.

Oy, this is a bit of an uncomfortable question for me, but I am curious.

I always thought it was considered wrong in the context of removing sexuality from the loving act of husband and wife together, and removing the final result of intercourse and the resulting ability to procreate. ::blushing here:: I'm so not an open person normally to discussing sexuality...lol.

 

[jckstraw72]

Wyretui, according to St. Nikodemos, sexual immorality is a mortal sin: Concerning Mortal Sins, Pardonable Sins, and Sins of Omission

the footnotes on the page offer you several more sources as well, if you care to look further into this.

according to Greek Orthodox Archdiocese in America: "Capital Sin (or Mortal or Deadly sin). Great offenses against God, or moral faults which, if habitual, could result in the spiritual death of the individual. The following sins are considered to be mortal: pride, covetousness, lust, anger, gluttony, envy, and sloth. These are the "Seven Deadly Sins" of the phrase." http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8049

but don't despair, my friend. as St. Gregory Palamas says: “Even if someone falls into mortal sin, as long as he turns away from it wholeheartedly, abstains from it, and returns to the Lord in deed and truth, he may have courage and great hope that he shall not fail to obtain eternal life and salvation." Homily on the Sunday of the Forefathers 57, 11.

 

[All4Christ]

Wyretui, according to St. Nikodemos, sexual immorality is a mortal sin: Concerning Mortal Sins, Pardonable Sins, and Sins of Omission the footnotes on the page offer you several more sources as well, if you care to look further into this. according to Greek Orthodox Archdiocese in America: "Capital Sin (or Mortal or Deadly sin). Great offenses against God, or moral faults which, if habitual, could result in the spiritual death of the individual. The following sins are considered to be mortal: pride, covetousness, lust, anger, gluttony, envy, and sloth. These are the "Seven Deadly Sins" of the phrase." http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8049 but don't despair, my friend. as St. Gregory Palamas says: “Even if someone falls into mortal sin, as long as he turns away from it wholeheartedly, abstains from it, and returns to the Lord in deed and truth, he may have courage and great hope that he shall not fail to obtain eternal life and salvation." Homily on the Sunday of the Forefathers 57, 11.

The OCA website has a different take on that...

https://oca.org/questions/sacramentconfession/sin

It says that we list grievous sins but that it does not have the same meaning as mortal sins in the Roman Catholic Church. I was taught along these lines in my catechism class as well.

In the Orthodox Church there are no “categories” of sin as found in the Christian West.
In the pre-Vatican II Roman Catholic catechism, sins were categorized as “mortal” and “venial.” In this definition, a “mortal” sin was one which would prevent someone from entering heaven unless one confessed it before death. Not only were such things as pride, lust, and sloth on the list of “mortal” sins, but failing to attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation were also considered “mortal” sins. A “venial” sin, according to this line of thinking, did not jeopardize one’s salvation. While stealing a car might be considered a “mortal” sin, stealing a candy bar was not. While a “venial” sin did not jeopardize one’s salvation, it still needed to be confessed and still may have had time in purgatory attached to it. Another way to see this distinction in Roman Catholic teaching—and here I simplifyy a tremendously complex line of reasoning—is as follows: If one commits a mortal sin and dies before confessing it, one would go straight to hell. If one commits a venial sin and dies before confessing it, one would not go straight to hell, but would have to spend time in purgatory before entering heaven.

[The Orthodox Church does not accept the teaching on purgatory that developed in more recent times in Roman Catholicism.]

These categories do not exist in the Orthodox Church. Sin is sin.