Master Plan?

[cranberry130]

If there is a master plan, why pray?
If everything is set in motion and whatever is going to happen will happen either way then why pray?

 

[Anguspure]

If there is a master plan, why pray?
If everything is set in motion and whatever is going to happen will happen either way then why pray?

Actually its worse than that.
If there is a strictly predestined master plan there is really no reason to discuss anything with anybody. Everybody is predestined to be whatever they have been, whatever they are, and whatever they will become. Even our apparant efforts to change things for the better or convince others of their free will are part of the illusion.
The whole concept undermines reason and goodness, whether it is the illusion of freewill from a theist point of view (Calvinism) or the atheistic view point (Genetic Determination)that we are considering.

 

[JackRT]

If there is a master plan, why pray?
If everything is set in motion and whatever is going to happen will happen either way then why pray?

I am reminded of Charles Templeton words in Farewell to God:

According to Christian theology, God is omniscient and exists apart from time. Being omniscient he knows the end from the beginning. But if true, would this not mean that all temporal life is predetermined? If God knows the end from the beginning then nothing is subject to change --- otherwise it would not have been known from the beginning. This being so, prayer cannot possibly change anything and there is no point to it. Apart from its function as worship, prayer is based on the premise that God can be talked into running the universe according to the wishes of a devout person on his knees. But, again, try to imagine the chaos if every devout person's prayers were answered! Belief in the efficacy of prayer is a form of self-delusion. Our real prayers are not what we say while on our knees --- the facile words whispered during a prayer. They are the aspirations, attitudes, and desires that motivate our daily lives. It is easy to prime the pump and have the words gush forth in a torrent of pious phrases but the proof of what we really want, regardless of what we say we want, is evident in the way we live.

 

[Soyeong]

If there is a master plan, why pray?
If everything is set in motion and whatever is going to happen will happen either way then why pray?

When you play through a videogame, there are many things that are set in motion that will happened in a predetermined order, yet you still have the will to play the game how you want to such that no two times that you play through the game are exactly identical, so it is possible for things to happen according to a master plan and still have free will.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If there is a master plan, why pray?

Because there is a plan for salvation for some since the beginning of the world.
"Some" is described fully all thru the CREATOR'S WORD (SCRIPTURE).

If everything is set in motion and whatever is going to happen will happen either way then why pray?

https://www . gotquestions.org/why-pray.html
Question: "Why pray? What is the point of prayer when God knows the future and is already in control of everything? If we cannot change God's mind, why should we pray?"

"Answer: For the Christian, praying is supposed to be like breathing, easier to do than to not do. We pray for a variety of reasons. For one thing, prayer is........."
.......>
https://www . gotquestions.org/why-pray.html

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

And, even more simply,
why did anyone ever talk to their parents as they were growing up?
Admittedly, the CREATOR is NOT the one to try to talk to if someone wants a different father....
But if anyone wants the CREATOR as his FATHER, then talk TO HIM, find out what HE'S all about.
HE IS DELIGHTED (and makes a permanent record) when people who are HIS children get together and talk about HIM.

 

[Anguspure]

And, even more simply,
why did anyone ever talk to their parents as they were growing up?
Admittedly, the CREATOR is NOT the one to try to talk to if someone wants a different father....
But if anyone wants the CREATOR as his FATHER, then talk TO HIM, find out what HE'S all about.
HE IS DELIGHTED (and makes a permanent record) when people who are HIS children get together and talk about HIM.

This is true but only in the context of actual Free Will. For example you say: "if someone wants a different father..." and "if anyone wants the CREATOR...".
Only a free agent truly wants something, and if they are not free, if they are predestined, then whether they want something or not is irrelevant and even our wanting is an illusion.

 

[John Hyperspace]

If there is a master plan, why pray?
If everything is set in motion and whatever is going to happen will happen either way then why pray?

Just because there's a master plan doesn't mean the things you do have no effect; in fact, the things you do, and the effect they have, is part of the master plan. Just because you're being guided along a master plan, doesn't mean the master isn't using you to have an effect. So your prayer (which is brought to pass according to the master plan) has an effect which is the cause of an effect which is part of the master plan.

Crude analogy would be, if you needed to get an iron filling out of a tight space, and used a magnet on the end of a stick: imagine the magnet asking "If it's all part of a master plan, why should I be magnetic?" and the answer is, to affect the iron filling and cause it to act also according to the master plan.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

This is true but only in the context of actual Free Will. For example you say: "if someone wants a different father..." and "if anyone wants the CREATOR...".
Only a free agent truly wants something, and if they are not free, if they are predestined, then whether they want something or not is irrelevant and even our wanting is an illusion.

That may be with a distorted definition and wrong understanding of predestination.

IN the meantime, while alive on earth,
those people who seek YHWH and keep on seeking YHWH'S KINGDOM
repenting of their sin full life on earth (and turning TO HIM to live HIS WAY FOREVER as HE HAS PLANNED and PROVISIONED for "new creations" in Y'SHUA MESSIAH) find HIM.

That's HIS WORD, that has NEVER been broken.

 

[Anguspure]

That may be with a distorted definition and wrong understanding of predestination.

IN the meantime, while alive on earth,
those people who seek YHWH and keep on seeking YHWH'S KINGDOM
repenting of their sin full life on earth (and turning TO HIM to live HIS WAY FOREVER as HE HAS PLANNED and PROVISIONED for "new creations" in Y'SHUA MESSIAH) find HIM.

That's HIS WORD, that has NEVER been broken.

Coined by Luis de Molina in the sixteenth century, Middle knowledge is what its called, this is: God's prevolitional knowledge of all true counterfactuals of creaturely freedom.
Middle knowledge accounts for how God can think ahead without violating freedom of will.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Coined by Luis de Molina in the sixteenth century, Middle knowledge is what its called, this is: God's prevolitional knowledge of all true counterfactuals of creaturely freedom.
Middle knowledge accounts for how God can think ahead without violating freedom of will.

Yet YHWH does not think ahead as middle says.

And a little child trusting YHWH,
a child as Y'SHUA says YHWH reveals SALVATION and everything concerning SALVATION in this life and in the life to come to,
simply relies on YHWH and Y'SHUA'S FAITHFULNESS
and is granted by YHWH Y'SHUA'S WISDOM TRUTH and EXPERIENTIAL KNOWLEDGE.
No problem. No worries. No stress. JUST GREAT PEACE, JOY and RIGHTEOUSNESS all day every day (yes, sometimes a few bumps in the road)
but as it is written in the NT continually, abiding IN HIM DAILY.... (YHWH'S ACCOMPLISHMENT AGAIN just as HIS WORD SAYS).

Trust YHWH, like a little child trusts his father. Don't mess with YHWH'S WORD.
YHWH KNOWS EVERYTHING,
and YHWH KNOWS what HE IS DOING. HE HAS ALWAYS KNOWN, ALWAYS.

 

[Anguspure]

Yet YHWH does not think ahead as middle says.

And a little child trusting YHWH,
a child as Y'SHUA says YHWH reveals SALVATION and everything concerning SALVATION in this life and in the life to come to,
simply relies on YHWH and Y'SHUA'S FAITHFULNESS
and is granted by YHWH Y'SHUA'S WISDOM TRUTH and EXPERIENTIAL KNOWLEDGE.
No problem. No worries. No stress. JUST GREAT PEACE, JOY and RIGHTEOUSNESS all day every day (yes, sometimes a few bumps in the road)
but as it is written in the NT continually, abiding IN HIM DAILY.... (YHWH'S ACCOMPLISHMENT AGAIN just as HIS WORD SAYS).

Trust YHWH, like a little child trusts his father. Don't mess with YHWH'S WORD.
YHWH KNOWS EVERYTHING,
and YHWH KNOWS what HE IS DOING. HE HAS ALWAYS KNOWN, ALWAYS.

If trusting Him is a not something that a freely choose to do,or not to do as the case maybe, then how could the choice to trust Him be credited to you, me and Abraham as righteousness?
If I Love or fail to Love simply because that is what I was predestined to do how can there possibly be any giving back to the Father in response to the Love that He has freely given us?
As for "YHWH does not think ahead":
See, the former things have taken place, and new things I declare; before they spring into being I announce them to you. (Isaiah 42)
I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. (Isaiah 46)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If trusting Him is a not something that a freely choose to do,or not to do as the case maybe, then how could the choice to trust Him be credited to you, me and Abraham as righteousness?

What does YHWH'S WORD say ? HE specifically says. It is VERY important.
It is , though rarely understood,
often quoted in the verse about how we are saved.

 

[Greg J.]

If there is a master plan, why pray?
If everything is set in motion and whatever is going to happen will happen either way then why pray?

"Everything" has not been set in motion like that. At all. Through your prayers (or taking action) you can change the present and future. What you are referring to is God's omniscience and that is it. Knowing that he knows the future helps us better know what he is like, but we are commanded to act on what we know. What he knows (that we don't) has nothing to do with that.

Prayer is an opportunity for you to participate in what God has chosen to do—which he will even reward you for, because it costs you something. Part of that participation is the opportunity to change what God is going to do. You are are part ruler of the earth—with very narrow authority, but more than enough authority to get God to move heaven and earth in accordance with the depth of your relationship with him. Persist in praying for things that you know are in accordance with his will and you will see answered prayers.

Prayer is one of the things we can do for our side of a good relationship with God. It is a part of exercising the union we have with God. It is a part of being obedient, too, which is the fundamental way to handle our side of a good relationship with God well. The better we handle our side, the more you will experience his side (with his actions).

 

[Anguspure]

What does YHWH'S WORD say ? HE specifically says. It is VERY important.
It is , though rarely understood,
often quoted in the verse about how we are saved.

Yes thats right, it is of the highest importance.

So trust that is not from a conscious act of free will is not trust at all in any sense of the word.

Things that do not have free will do not and cannot trust, they simply do what they've been programmed to do.

Therefore a person who trusts YHWH and is credited righteousness for that trust cannot be predetermined, preprogrammed or predestined to trust.

YHWH may have known that a person was going to trust from the creation of the world and in this sense already accepted the person and chosen them but this does not imply that the choice is set.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Therefore a person who trusts YHWH and is credited righteousness for that trust cannot be predetermined, preprogrammed or predestined to trust.

YHWH may have known that a person was going to trust from the creation of the world and in this sense already accepted the person and chosen them but this does not imply that the choice is set.

Yes! ( I pretty sure )
As Y'SHUA said over Jerusalem "if only you had BEEN WILLING" (short version )

So, realizing this.
YHWH KNOWS EVERYONE'S CHOICES.
That's easy to understand.
(sort of).

THEN, 'already done', YHWH has already planned EVERY DAY for EVERY PERSON.

This even INCLUDES YHWH ALWAYS KNEW all the times everyone's NOT DOING what they know they are supposed to,
and
EVEN >>> RE-SCHEDULING "TODAY" from "TODAY, harden not your hearts as they did in the wilderness/rebellion...."

FOR A TIME, or TIMES, or TIMES again >> YHWH re-schedules that "TODAY" -
HE
again PROVIDES A DAY to choose (after failing to choose 70 times 7 days) ? ? ?

see? AND YHWH has PERFECTLY PROVIDED EVERYTHING NEEDED FOR EACH AND EVERY DAY in this life and in the life to come FOREVER !

SO GRAND !
YHWH IS
never even one second late. (but IF WE mess up, we can die just like if we turn the steering wheel of our car TOO LATE or hit the brakes TOO LATE or ten thousand other things WE CAN DO if we mess up..... )

 

[Anguspure]

Yes! ( I pretty sure )
As Y'SHUA said over Jerusalem "if only you had BEEN WILLING" (short version )

So, realizing this.
YHWH KNOWS EVERYONE'S CHOICES.
That's easy to understand.
(sort of).

THEN, 'already done', YHWH has already planned EVERY DAY for EVERY PERSON.

This even INCLUDES YHWH ALWAYS KNEW all the times everyone's NOT DOING what they know they are supposed to,
and
EVEN >>> RE-SCHEDULING "TODAY" from "TODAY, harden not your hearts as they did in the wilderness/rebellion...."

FOR A TIME, or TIMES, or TIMES again >> YHWH re-schedules that "TODAY" -
HE
again PROVIDES A DAY to choose (after failing to choose 70 times 7 days) ? ? ?

see? AND YHWH has PERFECTLY PROVIDED EVERYTHING NEEDED FOR EACH AND EVERY DAY in this life and in the life to come FOREVER !

SO GRAND !
YHWH IS
never even one second late. (but IF WE mess up, we can die just like if we turn the steering wheel of our car TOO LATE or hit the brakes TOO LATE or ten thousand other things WE CAN DO if we mess up..... )

Great! It appears that we are on the same page. This all comes under the heading of Middle Knowledge and differs from the sort of predestination put forward by Calvin and Co.

 

[Emmy]

Dear cranberry130. There is no Master Plan. Jesus told us in Matthew 22: 35-40: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it:
love thy neighbour as thyself. In verse 40 we are told: On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. God is Love, and God wants loving men and women.
The Bible tells us: " Repent and be Born Again," we give up our selfish wishes and wants, and start loving and caring as God wants us to. Matthew 7: 7-10: tells us "Ask and be Born again." We ask for love and joy, kindness and forgiveness, then thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour: all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends. God sees our loving and caring, and God will approve and Bless us, we will be God`s loving children. That is our plan, loving and caring, being kind and always friendly, always helping and forgiving. That is God`s Plan for us: let love and forgiveness always be our goal. We may stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us and carry on be God`s loving children. I say this with love, cranberry. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[Uber Genius]

Actually its worse than that.
If there is a strictly predestined master plan there is really no reason to discuss anything with anybody. Everybody is predestined to be whatever they have been, whatever they are, and whatever they will become. Even our apparant efforts to change things for the better or convince others of their free will are part of the illusion.
The whole concept undermines reason and goodness, whether it is the illusion of freewill from a theist point of view (Calvinism) or the atheistic view point (Genetic Determination)that we are considering.

Anguspure, assume you profile quote in Latin is a reference that passes through to the one who first spoke it not yourself.

 

[Uber Genius]

If there is a master plan, why pray?
If everything is set in motion and whatever is going to happen will happen either way then why pray?

Big question but the respondents are handling it nicely. Why think determinism is true, other than Calvin suggesting it was. Reformers were limited in the quality of their texts and Bible study methods. They were embedded in a tight community that used appeals to consequences, force, authority, ignorance to make their points go through.

Don't get me wrong, I think they got a lot of reforms dead on. But left us (Luther, Melanchton, Zwingli, Calvin) with contorted views, especially in the areas where there is silence on "How" God accomplishes his sovereignty.

They were a fill-in-the-blank type of culture and quite frankly they were not strong philosophically. Let's move on and recognize that we have free will, it is important to train our minds, study scripture properly (not just surface reading), and make choices as to how God has called us to expand the Kingdom of God inside our own sphere of influence with the gifts he has given. We are free to say "no" but it has the same effect in the spiritual battle for kingdom that it has when a solider tells his superior "No," on the battle field.

PEOPLE DIE!
EVIL PREVAILS!
GOD'S WILL IS THWARTED!

12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. (1Cor. 3:12-15)

"If" is a conditional statement. It assume the audience is able to fulfill the condition!

Ever conditional statement in scripture does the same.

Use your free will wisely. May God grant you wisdom.