What I see myself failing in is your logic
Just because your ancestor was not privy to what John said about testing the spirits does not at all make what John said untrue or exempt from the principal. It is a standard principal of how humans should deal with the supernatural, whether people know of it or not.
Your ancestor did not know about it so he went along with the message of the halo. But now that we are involved in this we can put the halo to the test. I have and I see it failing the test. Anyone or anything can claim to be God, that doesn't make it true.
I never said that what John said was untrue, I said it's not fair to expect people who lived in 16th century Fiji to expect to know that they were required to "test the spirits". As you and I can see this, surely God would see this and make allowances for it.
Also, I pointed out that I do not know everything that transpired between the parties at that time. Whether it told tham of Christ or not, I do not know. All I know is that they never knew it's name, which happens a lot with angels who carry messages from God to men.
I'd test the "halo" if I could. However, it's no longer around now.
Again, the halo neglected to acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord and because that is the most important message that this being could have told him, when it failed to tell them I therefore say it refused to tell them.
I look at all the other cases where people, non-believers who never heard of Jesus Christ, who saw visions and or talked directly to God, in every case it was Jesus who spoke to them. He identified himself as Jesus Christ, claimed to be the Son of God and that He had died and rose again as a payment for their sins. hundreds of Muslims in the middle east are recieving these visions. There is no middle man, there is no halo, there are no missionaries, there is no being saying that He is the supreme power and creator of the universe. There is just Jesus giving a simple and straight message of salvation. Any time a supernatural being fails to do that should be looked upon as very suspicous and false.
True. Again, I must plead ignorance. It could have told them of Christ, it might not have. However, in the mind of a cannibalistic Fijian warrior, that would not mean much. What would impress such a person would be to say that it was a power that had never been defeated.
If you read the 7 letters to the 7 churches in Revelation Ch 2 & 3, you'll notice that the name Jesus is never mentioned once there. Rather the descriptions that are used are "
These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands (Revelation2:1 to Ephesus) or "
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David" (Revelation 3:7 to Philadelphia) or "
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation." (Revelation 3:14 to Laodicea). The closest one I think is the greeting to Thyatira (Revelation 2:18)
"These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze." This would be like similar to a voice from a "halo" saying " These are the words of the power that can never be defeated".
Therefore IMO, for you to say that because the being never identified itself at any time, makes it the Devil/evil spirit is not always true.
Ok, I see where you are coming from.
Romans 4:3, What does the scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.
And this is what allowed Abraham and his descendants up to the law of Moses to go on to heaven once Jesus paved the way. I agree that when the New Testament started we all basically fell back into the Abrahamic covenant of faith brings you to righteousness, but acceptence of Christ has to be the thing that binds that together for those living in the new testament. Abraham didn't need Christ, all he needed was his faith.
I disagree. The Abrahamic way of faith has always been the way to go to Heaven. Even the giving of the Law did not nullify this.
Habbakuk 2:4
See, he is puffed up; his desires are not upright— but the righteous will live by his faith
Even during the time of Moses, until Jesus came, the way was still that of faith. This has never changed, from the beginning.
Opps, I didn't say anything about it being the central most pivotal act in out salvation, although that is true, there's a difference in what I said. I'm talking about the event itself. Now that Jesus Christ has come and gone and has started the New Testament, all people afterwards are in need to know about it. All peoples before the event were not in need to know about it. Abraham only need his belief in God to be credited with righteousness. Moses and the Jews up to the event need to observe the law and ordinances in order for salvation. All people after the event needs to acept Jesus Christ as Lord and savior in order for salvation. It's a pivotal point in histroy. They all were before the cross, we are on the other side of the cross.
I see everyone on the same side of the cross. The side we are on is the side all sinners are on. To get across to the other side, takes faith, in God and His savation, in the sacrifice of His Son for us. We all need to know about Jesus, because as you quoted, He is the way. There is no other, irrespective of when you lived in history.
Well then what did Jesus suffer and die for then if all we need is faith and trust and nothing more? Again:
John 14:6, Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
You're telling me that Jesus is not the way, but our faith and trust is. Sounds like a works based salvation to me.
Sorry, I'm not articulate enough
Jesus is the Way. I have no doubts about that. What I'm saying is that all you need to is faith, adn faith in God, that He will save you. Even if you don't know the name of the Saviour you are praying to, that is enough.
A.W Tippet, an American missionary who died in 1977, tells of an island in the Pacific, where the people had been devasted by a long period of continuous warfare. One of the man from this island, was at another island, and heard of the move of God in Tonga, where the entire nation became Christians in 3 years, and all warfare ceased. He wanted this for his people, but all he could find out was that this new faith, worshiped a god called Jehovah, and did not do any work on Sunday, but prayed.
He went back to his island, and told all the people, in a meeting of this new faith, and how it had stopped the warfare in Tonga. They all agreed to try it, and on the next Sunday, gathered in the village green, dressed in the very best, to worship Jehovah. Being pagans, none of them had the faintest idea of how Jehovah was to be worshipped, so this man went to their witch doctor, and dragged him to the village green, where everyone was waiting. He told the witch doctor "We want you to pray to Jehovah for us". The witch doctor replied and said "Why? I don't believe this 'Jehovah', and I don't want to worship him'". The man then told him " If you don't, we will beat you up!" So the witch doctor prayed, under duress, the funniest prayer I have ever heard. He said "
"You the god Jehovah, I offer this prayer to you, on behalf of these people. I do not believe in you, and I don't want to worship you, but these people will beat me up if I don't pray to you for them. Hear their prayer I offer on their behalf."
That was the end of the first service.
Two days afterwards, a canoe, carrying Tongan missionaries from the newly founded church in Tonga, beached at this island. The missionaries were heading to another island, but ran into a storm, and were blown off course, and when the storm let up, saw this island and decided to head for it, and restock. The islanders saw it as the answer to the prayer of a pagan witch doctor, and converted as one to Christ, the witch doctor included.
My point in all this is that even those who do not know anything more, but have a yearning to be saved can be saved. God's hand is not to short to save, my friend.
There was a Muslim man called Sihdique who gave a testimony that one night as he lay sick and dying on his hospital bed in Damascus, he prayed to Allah and said "God, if you are out there, please save me. I don't want to die." He then continues and says " A bright light suddenly shone on me and a voice said ' I am the God of the Christians. I have healed you, for you are to spread my good news to your fellow countrymen'. " He was healed and got up, and the doctors were surprised to see him walking and asked how he was healed. When they asked what Allah did, he said "No it was not Allah. I prayed and Allah did not come to save me. Muhammed did not come to save me. The God of the Christians came and healed me." They have since, because of his testimony and preaching of the good new, exiled him from his country. If you're interested, PM me your address and I will send you a DVD of his testimony. the funny thing was, when this DVD was on sale in Fiji, the Muslims in our country would buy them in bulk and burn them, because they did not want the news of an ex-Muslim becoming a Christian, with such a powerful testimony, getting into the hands of others.
It wasn't important for them to know about Jesus Christ because they were all under different covenants. there was the covenant with Abraham, the covenant with Moses, and the New Testament. All three are closely connexted but different all the same.
And if all we need to do is trust in God then Jesus never had to go through what He had to go through. If only you were there to stop him from going to the cross, He could have saved himself alot of suffering.
This is taking too long and I'm only half done. I'm taking a break!
We need to trust God, that He will save us. Jesus is the Way God has chosen to save us. If we trust, God will save, even if we have no knowledge of the means of salvation. Not knowing how God saves will not disqualify anyone, for God can reveal that knowledge to those who want to be saved.