Life Without The Bible.

[pinetree]

I think we'd be much like the middle ages Christians. We'd do whatever the bishops told us to do. We'd be doing worse things than indulges and our concept of what Christianity would be based on 100% tradition. If history tells us anything, a religion based on tradition is full of legalism. Much like what Jesus faced when he dealt with the pharisees. Jesus didn't seem to fond of their idea of true faith.

Makes sense..the pharisees had the written word.Seems like we can have legalism with or without the written word.

 

[pinetree]

I think that it would be absolutely wonderful !! More people ould actually live with the New Covenant - listening to Him - fellowshipping with Him - speaking to other Christians without some law or rule to get in the way of conversation because someone has to say that the "bible" says this or that about something to be done or not done .

edited to add : That might freak-out some people . So , I would say ... it would be nice for five years . Then , after people see that they don't *need* the Scriptures , they can read them and use them in a better way .

I understand just what you mean friend.

Folks seem to forget,that those who wrote the scriptures,at one point were just like you and me..

They heard God,but the difference is their revelations became scripture.

But we too hear the living God...

Glad you stopped by.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Methodists and Catholics. Now we have other denominations too (Charismatics, Evangelical, Greek Orthodox etc etc)

Ah, ok, thank you

 

[NaLuvena]

Hi NaLuvena

I was just pointing out that I had questions about this and didn't get any answers so I still have alot of questions.

Hi Nephilimiyr,

If you have any questions, I would be glad to answer them to the best of my ability.

Well, the way "revival" is handled on this forum I would have to say you aren't saying much. Make a thread once on a revival springing up somewhere and automatically people come running yelling false teachers and the like. what kind of revival was it, what were the people told, who were the missionaries? Jehovah's Witnesses? the Mormons?

I think revival is the wrong word to use in this case, because it has connotations of Christians being refreshed by a fresh move of the Spirit.

This was God moving and converting cannibals overnight to Christians. By overnight I mean these people literally said "Now I will worship your God" to the missionaries (who I have to point out were not always Westerners but more often than not, other Fijians and Pacific Islanders), and never went back to their old ways, of killing, eating human flesh and heathenism.

Now if a revival can make a cannibal forsake eating human flesh, even if he ends up getting eaten by his former friends, that would be something to behold.

I, for one, do not agree with criticizing revivals when they happen, because, if they are really of God, and you are wrong in your criticism, you become guilty of opposing God. This was the advice of Gamaliel in Acts 5.

Acts 5

34But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while. 35Then he addressed them: "Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. 36Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. 37After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. 38Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God."

If the "revival" results in God being worshiped more, so much the better!!!

What year was this? Did this happen before or after Christ?

If Jesus had already been born, died and raised again from the cross, there is no possible logical reason why God would want to keep that from this man until the missionaries came. That's all I'm saying. If they were in conversation, and I believe he was hearing from someone, then there was no reason at all not to tell him of this great news himself. God relies on the Holy Spirit to change hearts, not man. There could've been a revival long before those missionaries arived.

So, appearing to a cannibal(s) and changing him/them from a cannibal to someone who worships God doesn't count? Even though this would make him/them the enemy of the other cannibals around him, they did not change their mind once they embarked on this course but still pressed on. This did not only happen in my family, but all over the Pacific, where the price to be paid for becoming a Christian was much higher

You miss the point my friend. The missionaries did not convert them, they merely brought more information about the God who was already worshiped there.

Sometimes we miss the message because we expect it to come in an envelope. When it comes in a form we do not expect, we dismiss it.

Well, see, now I know I have a problem with this.

Surely you jest

Have you not heard of Apollo, who was still preaching the from his knowledge of the Baptism of John after the death of Jesus?

Acts 18

24Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. 25He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately.

Here Apollo did not have the complete knowledge of Jesus, and it took other believers to explain the truth to him adequately.

If that was true then, after Jesus died, why should it not be true now?

If God wasn't in the business of using men, what do you make of Paul, who was God's Apostle to the Gentiles, sent to take His name to the rest of the world?

The gifts of the Holy Spirit died out in the second century AD. I didn't use the word "stifled" pinetree did. By the late 1800's and early 1900's the gifts came back and are being manafested today. I didn't say they were not being manafested where I am at, although I admitt not many are in use. Then again, I don't go to all the churches in my area.

I disagree. Just because we do not see God operating, or hear of it, does not mean that God has stopped operating.

By your statement above, you have just dismissed the revival during John Wesley's time, for one. There are other revivals, and there are those that are not even documented.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Ok, thank you for clearing alot of this up for me as I'm becoming more at ease with this. Yet we still have some problems yet to clear up

You miss the point my friend. The missionaries did not convert them, they merely brought more information about the God who was already worshiped there.

Ok, I understand that but I think you are missing my point, I know you are because you are not addressing it, in fact, you are ignoring it. See you can't do that without me noticing because I always pick that up.

The point is, Jesus had already died and was resurrected. Now, hundreds of years after that He then holds a conversation with your descendant and tells him He's God but never once mentions the fact that His son is the only way to him? The only way to the Father is through Jesus Christ, yet God is holding this conversation with this man, several times if I remember correctly, and never ever mentions Jesus Christ, the only way by which we have access to him? I'm sorry but I have a problem with that.

It's a point of logic and truth. If this man was able to hold a conversation with God there was absolutely no reason for this God not to tell the man the way and means by which he is supposed to worship him. There was not only no reason to with-hold this vital piece of information from him, but it was very vital for him to know this.

Simply worshipping God the Father is no longer good enough. The Father knows this but this is what this being is telling this man?

Sometimes we miss the message because we expect it to come in an envelope. When it comes in a form we do not expect, we dismiss it.

So you're saying that you think God with-held this vital piece of information about Jesus Christ because this man wouldn't have been able to understand it? That don't make any sense. Shouldn't the fact that he is talking to nothing but a voice or halo disturb him more?

Here Apollo did not have the complete knowledge of Jesus, and it took other believers to explain the truth to him adequately.

If that was true then, after Jesus died, why should it not be true now?

Because God didn't talk to Apollo before hand and tell him to keep preaching the message of John the baptist until years later when a man will pass your way and teach you more wonderful things, that's why.

It makes a huge difference. If God chose to talk directly to Apollo beforehand He would've simply said, stop preaching the message of John the Baptist because Jesus Christ has died and risen now. Start preaching the gospel!

And what's with "adequately"? Are you saying God himself can't adequately explain the truth about Jesus Christ to this man but needs men from a different country and totally different culture to go over there with the real message and explain it better then God can?

I'm sorry but the story of Apollo does not apply. Actually I should thank you for bringing it up because it better explains my possition and why I have a problem with this.

I disagree. Just because we do not see God operating, or hear of it, does not mean that God has stopped operating.

You still totally misunderstood what I said even after I thought I clarified myself.

I did not make the claim that God has stopped operating. I said back in the early to mid 2nd century AD. the gifts ceased to operate, they died out. The gifts of the Holy Spirit started to reapear in the late 1800's and today they are being used all over the world. I never claimed God is not operating or that the gifts are not in evidence today.

By your statement above, you have just dismissed the revival during John Wesley's time, for one. There are other revivals, and there are those that are not even documented.

No I did not dismiss any revivals, Lord help me, I said that where I live the gifts are being operated but I don't see all of them in operation.

 

[NaLuvena]

Ok, thank you for clearing alot of this up for me as I'm becoming more at ease with this. Yet we still have some problems yet to clear up

You're welcome. At this juncture, I'd like to say that it's a relief to have a decent discussion in CF without having the normal "blood&guts" in play as well. Thanks for the civility....

Ok, I understand that but I think you are missing my point, I know you are because you are not addressing it, in fact, you are ignoring it. See you can't do that without me noticing because I always pick that up.

The point is, Jesus had already died and was resurrected. Now, hundreds of years after that He then holds a conversation with your descendant and tells him He's God but never once mentions the fact that His son is the only way to him? The only way to the Father is through Jesus Christ, yet God is holding this conversation with this man, several times if I remember correctly, and never ever mentions Jesus Christ, the only way by which we have access to him? I'm sorry but I have a problem with that.

It's a point of logic and truth. If this man was able to hold a conversation with God there was absolutely no reason for this God not to tell the man the way and means by which he is supposed to worship him. There was not only no reason to with-hold this vital piece of information from him, but it was very vital for him to know this.

Simply worshipping God the Father is no longer good enough. The Father knows this but this is what this being is telling this man?

So you're saying that you think God with-held this vital piece of information about Jesus Christ because this man wouldn't have been able to understand it? That don't make any sense. Shouldn't the fact that he is talking to nothing but a voice or halo disturb him more?

Because God didn't talk to Apollo before hand and tell him to keep preaching the message of John the baptist until years later when a man will pass your way and teach you more wonderful things, that's why.

It makes a huge difference. If God chose to talk directly to Apollo beforehand He would've simply said, stop preaching the message of John the Baptist because Jesus Christ has died and risen now. Start preaching the gospel!

Firstly, the conversation was held with my ancestor, and not my descendant.

Now, to be honest, I don't know everything that transpired between the halo and my ancestors. They could have been told this, they might have not, but I cannot say with certainty either way. Also, you must understand that ours is a culture that has no writing script, and all our history, before the coming of Christianity to our islands was verbally kept, in songs, chants and stories. This information could have been left out, by the people who relayed the story down to us.

However, I think that to say that God should tell us is wrong. It might be a point of logic and truth, but when has that carried any weight with God in the past? Remember, this is the God who said

1 Corinthians 1:27
But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.

Now the example of Apollo I posted previously was to point out that after Jesus died, and rose again (praise be to God!!!), He still didn't tell Apollo this, but sent other believers to explain this to him.

If God did this to Apollo, why would a few years and hundreds of years after the event of Jesus' death and resurrection make any difference?

And what's with "adequately"? Are you saying God himself can't adequately explain the truth about Jesus Christ to this man but needs men from a different country and totally different culture can to go over there with the real message?

I'm sorry but the story of Apollo does not apply. Actually I should thank you for bringing it up because it better explains my possition and why I have a problem with this.

I used "adequately" to point out that Apollos was preaching from his knowledge, that was only the baptism of John (i.e. repentance) at the time Priscilla and Aquila taught him the truth about Jesus to enable him to be adequately preach the Gospel.

The story of Apollo applies. It shows that God, even after the death of Christ, still used people to teach others about the truth, even if they had part of it already.

You still totally misunderstood what I said even after I thought I clarified myself.

I did not make the claim that God has stopped operating. I said back in the early to mid 2nd century AD. the gifts ceased to operate, they died out. The gifts of the Holy Spirit started to reapear in the late 1800's and today they are being used all over the world. I never claimed God is not operating or that the gifts are not in evidence today.

Apologies. I did not misunderstand your claim, but my response was not clear. I've re-worded it below.

"I disagree. Just because we do not see gifts of God operating, or hear of it, does not mean that the gifts of God has stopped operating.

This one looks like the start of another thread....

No I did not dismiss any revivals, Lord help me, I said that where I live the gifts are being operated but I don't see all of them in operation.

Apologies again. I meant to point out to you that the gifts of God operated in the revival of John Wesley's time.

 

[nephilimiyr]

You're welcome. At this juncture, I'd like to say that it's a relief to have a decent discussion in CF without having the normal "blood&guts" in play as well. Thanks for the civility....

And I appreciate that about you too. I'm just trying to sort this all out, I have my own personal reasons for doing so that I can't disclose at this time.

And thank you for useing scripture in your posts, I very much appreciate that!

Firstly, the conversation was held with my ancestor, and not my descendant.

Thank you because ancestor is so much easier to write.

Now, to be honest, I don't know everything that transpired between the halo and my ancestors. They could have been told this, they might have not, but I cannot say with certainty either way. Also, you must understand that ours is a culture that has no writing script, and all our history, before the coming of Christianity to our islands was verbally kept, in songs, chants and stories. This information could have been left out, by the people who relayed the story down to us.

Now this helps me emensly, and just by you saying this I can now end my inquisition of what you have been saying. I hope I wasn't too brutal?

If it wasn't written down, and you aren't even exactly sure of the whole story or all the details, there is no way I can argue it. Kinda like the whole point of this thread isn't it?

However, I think that to say that God should tell us is wrong. It might be a point of logic and truth, but when has that carried any weight with God in the past? Remember, this is the God who said

1 Corinthians 1:27
But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.

Ah, so you want to keep going? OK, I'm game! And thanks for addressing my point! Even though you misunderstood it

I look at that verse like this: Verses 26-28 are exactly opposite of the way that man thinks on his own. Carnal man would choose the "cream of the crop" to represent his interest to others. Yet, God Almighty, does just the opposite.

Many people could learn to use computers to design art or make things, but it is only the best artisans who can create a true masterpiece with only the crudest tools. Likewise, a lesser god could use the brightest and best of men to draw others to Himself, but only our God can take the worst of men and make the mighty tremble. God gets all the glory and not the "tool" He uses.

Now, my point wasn't that God himself should have to tell us, but that if God was already in direct conversation with you, He should tell you what you need to know. In the case of your ancestor, in what you told me, God completely avoided to tell him what he needed to know. Do you understand that? I'm not making any claim that God has to hold direct conversations with everyone of us in order to know anything about him. He can and does use many other "tools" such as people to come into your life to bring a message. I don't have a problem with that.

Now the example of Apollo I posted previously was to point out that after Jesus died, and rose again (praise be to God!!!), He still didn't tell Apollo this, but sent other believers to explain this to him.

God is not obligated to directly talk to anybody. In Apollo's case, God chose to wait and use Paul as a tool. This is how God normally acts with most everyone who is not a believer, born again, or saved. That wasn't the case with your ancestor, God talked directly to him, that is something out of the norm, very special. Not many people at all claim to have this happen to them.

If God did this to Apollo, why would a few years and hundreds of years after the event of Jesus' death and resurrection make any difference?

But God didn't talk directly to Apollo, that's the point. If God would've talked directly, in an audiable voice, God would've told him to quite preaching the John message and start preaching the gospel. However In Apollos case, God chose to use Paul as a tool to deliver that messege. In the case of your ancestor, God chose to not use a tool but to talk directly to him, to deliver the message himself, in person. There is the major important difference. Just like if God would've talked directly to Apollo and told him to preach the gospel, He also would've told your ancestor about Jesus Christ. Why? because He wouldn't have needed a tool because He is talking directly to the man.

I used "adequately" to point out that Apollos was preaching from his knowledge, that was only the baptism of John (i.e. repentance) at the time Priscilla and Aquila taught him the truth about Jesus to enable him to be adequately preach the Gospel.

OK

The story of Apollo applies. It shows that God, even after the death of Christ, still used people to teach others about the truth, even if they had part of it already.

And I hope by now you see that that wasn't the point I was making. My point wasn't that God wont use tools like humans to deliver messages but that when He choses to not use tools and directly gives the message himself, He isn't then going to leave out the most important part of the message. Which is, Jesus, my Son, is your savior. In order for you to have anything to do with me you have to accept him as Lord. From the story you told me, that did not happen.

Why do you believe God, who is in direct conversation with a non-believer, would only deliver part of the message? And totally leave out the gospel, the most important part of the message?

I must say, anytime anyone is dealing with a supernatural force that refuses to mention Jesus Christ, especially his importance, is something you need to steer clear of. I don't care what good this something would bring or promise. Because that is the way I understood this from what you said. This halo spoke to your ancestor and totally refused to mention the name of Jesus Christ, that is wrong. And of course, you admitt you may not have all the information and that this halo may have very well have mentioned Jesus and gave the gospel to him. If that's the case, then I no longer have a problem.

Apologies. I did not misunderstand your claim, but my response was not clear. I've re-worded it below.

"I disagree. Just because we do not see gifts of God operating, or hear of it, does not mean that the gifts of God has stopped operating.

No need for another thread because, and I hate to tell you this, but, you still misunderstood me.

I'm not saying at all that the gifts have stopped operating, and because I don't see all of them in use. I believe all the gifts of God are in operation and are being used all around the world. I'm simply saying that I haven't seen all the gifts in operation, that's all.

When I say gifts, I'm talking about the gifts of the Holy Spirit as outlined in 1 Corintians 12. What do you mean by "gifts of God"? Maybe we're talking about two different things?

Apologies again. I meant to point out to you that the gifts of God operated in the revival of John Wesley's time.

No need to apologize, alls swell with me.

 

[NaLuvena]

And I appreciate that about you too. I'm just trying to sort this all out, I have my own personal reasons for doing so that I can't disclose at this time.

And thank you for useing scripture in your posts, I very much appreciate that!

You're welcome. I used scripture because it would give us a common point of reference.

Thank you because ancestor is so much easier to write.

Now this helps me emensly, and just by you saying this I can now end my inquisition of what you have been saying. I hope I wasn't too brutal?

If it wasn't written down, and you aren't even exactly sure of the whole story or all the details, there is no way I can argue it. Kinda like the whole point of this thread isn't it?

I made a decision a few years ago, to challenge my faith, and it's foundations so that when God tests it with fire, it will not burn. A kind of pre-testing of my own, before God's testing to make sure that what I am "building" now survives the fire. Your queries just strengthens what is true and helps remove the dross.

If I didn't want the scrutiny, I could have left out all those bits and made it a "God-said-so-you-can't-challenge-this-or-you're-blaspheming" kind of post.

I know the main points of the story. If you wanted me to tell you the actual conversation, I'd have to admit ignorance.

You weren't too brutal, actually it helps. After all Proverbs says "Wounds from a friend can be trusted, but an enemy multiplies kisses." (Proverbs 27:6). Your "brutality" actually helps sharpen a lot of minds in here, so never apologize for it. There is a purpose in God's Kingdom for minds like yours.

Ah, so you want to keep going? OK, I'm game! And thanks for addressing my point! Even though you misunderstood it

I look at that verse like this: Verses 26-28 are exactly opposite of the way that man thinks on his own. Carnal man would choose the "cream of the crop" to represent his interest to others. Yet, God Almighty, does just the opposite.

Many people could learn to use computers to design art or make things, but it is only the best artisans who can create a true masterpiece with only the crudest tools. Likewise, a lesser god could use the brightest and best of men to draw others to Himself, but only our God can take the worst of men and make the mighty tremble. God gets all the glory and not the "tool" He uses.

I agree with you, however, you have not taken that line of thought to it's logical conclusion. If artists can create masterpieces with the crudest tools, the Artist can create perfection from nothing. And has, I might add.

Now, my point wasn't that God himself should have to tell us, but that if God was already in direct conversation with you, He should tell you what you need to know. In the case of your ancestor, in what you told me, God completely avoided to tell him what he needed to know. Do you understand that? I'm not making any claim that God has to hold direct conversations with everyone of us in order to know anything about him. He can and does use many other "tools" such as people to come into your life to bring a message. I don't have a problem with that.

God is not obligated to directly talk to anybody. In Apollo's case, God chose to wait and use Paul as a tool. This is how God normally acts with most everyone who is not a believer, born again, or saved. That wasn't the case with your ancestor, God talked directly to him, that is something out of the norm, very special. Not many people at all claim to have this happen to them.

But God didn't talk directly to Apollo, that's the point. If God would've talked directly, in an audiable voice, God would've told him to quite preaching the John message and start preaching the gospel. However In Apollos case, God chose to use Paul as a tool to deliver that messege. In the case of your ancestor, God chose to not use a tool but to talk directly to him, to deliver the message himself, in person. There is the major important difference. Just like if God would've talked directly to Apollo and told him to preach the gospel, He also would've told your ancestor about Jesus Christ. Why? because He wouldn't have needed a tool because He is talking directly to the man.

I don't know what God did what He did then, the way He did. It's like the majority of things in my life, I don't know what God is doing, why He is doing what He is doing, but I've learnt to trust Him anyways.

I know this is of no help to you, but think about it this way. Man would do it the way you said. If you, or I was going to reveal the truth to others, we'd give it all to them. God, however, knows all, and knows best and has His reasons for doing what He does, and doesn't always choose to tell us why.

I guess, to sum all that hot-air up, I really don't know why God didn't just tell them about Jesus Himself. I'll add that to my list of things I plan to ask God about when I get to Heaven.

And I hope by now you see that that wasn't the point I was making. My point wasn't that God wont use tools like humans to deliver messages but that when He choses to not use tools and directly gives the message himself, He isn't then going to leave out the most important part of the message. Which is, Jesus, my Son, is your savior. In order for you to have anything to do with me you have to accept him as Lord. From the story you told me, that did not happen.


Why do you believe God, who is in direct conversation with a non-believer, would only deliver part of the message? And totally leave out the gospel, the most important part of the message?


I must say, anytime anyone is dealing with a supernatural force that refuses to mention Jesus Christ, especially his importance, is something you need to steer clear of. I don't care what good this something would bring or promise. Because that is the way I understood this from what you said. This halo spoke to your ancestor and totally refused to mention the name of Jesus Christ, that is wrong. And of course, you admitt you may not have all the information and that this halo may have very well have mentioned Jesus and gave the gospel to him. If that's the case, then I no longer have a problem.

The thing is, God has done so in the past. Take Abraham, for example. God never told Him what He planned to do, never told Him about Jesus, not even the name, never told Him about how His salvation would work. The first person to ask God who He was, was Moses, and He told Moses " I AM Who I AM".

Before that He was " The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob".

Now you can't say that God did that in the OT times, because God, knowing everything, already knew the future and knew that the Word would be called Jesus, that He would die on the cross of a Roman empire that Abraham never even conceived.

What I'm trying to point out is that when you start approaching these sorts of things with any preconceived notions of how the outcome should look like, or what procedures should be followed, or how/when/where/why it should happen, you start putting God in a box. It takes us back to the OP,
most of us are used to the idea of having a Bible, and find it hard to accept that without one, life is still possible, God can still save, and people can still know Him.

Most of us have preconceived notions of how God should operate, what He should do, and how He should judge, but (and I'd bet my life on this!!!) when Judgement Day comes, there will be quite a few surprises. There will be people we never thought would get in getting in, and people who thought they would get in being kicked out. Sorry, but this thought always amuses me, because there's nothing like seeing a person getting what they deserve.

Proverbs 21:15

When justice is done, it brings joy to the righteous but terror to evildoers.

...which is why I "pre-test" what I'm building so that it can survive on that day...

No need for another thread because, and I hate to tell you this, but, you still misunderstood me.

I'm not saying at all that the gifts have stopped operating, and because I don't see all of them in use. I believe all the gifts of God are in operation and are being used all around the world. I'm simply saying that I haven't seen all the gifts in operation, that's all.

My bad.

When I say gifts, I'm talking about the gifts of the Holy Spirit as outlined in 1 Corintians 12. What do you mean by "gifts of God"? Maybe we're talking about two different things?

No, we're on the same page. I'm talking about those gifts, and also the ones in Romans 12:6-8.

 

[nephilimiyr]

I agree with you, however, you have not taken that line of thought to it's logical conclusion. If artists can create masterpieces with the crudest tools, the Artist can create perfection from nothing. And has, I might add.

I may not have conveyed that in what I wrote but the way I see that verse is that God can take the worse of artists and make perfection. Actually, that is what I said, read the paragraph before it please.

I don't know what God did what He did then, the way He did. It's like the majority of things in my life, I don't know what God is doing, why He is doing what He is doing, but I've learnt to trust Him anyways.

Yeah, I hear yah, that is what we're all learning.

I know this is of no help to you, but think about it this way. Man would do it the way you said. If you, or I was going to reveal the truth to others, we'd give it all to them. God, however, knows all, and knows best and has His reasons for doing what He does, and doesn't always choose to tell us why.

I'm sorry but that sounds like a complete brush off of everything I said, a cop out, an excuse to just keep believeing what you want. With this belief or attitude we would have to accept that everything that comes our way is from God and that it's God who is sending it. After all, who are we to question God or his ways? Yet John admonishes us to test the spirits.

1 John 4:1, Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirit to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

1 John 4:2-3, This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.


Did this halo being acknowledge Jesus Christ? No it did not.

Na, sorry, again, any supernatural force that refuses to acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord and savior is not of God. This is not just an understanding of man but of God also.

I guess, to sum all that hot-air up, I really don't know why God didn't just tell them about Jesus Himself. I'll add that to my list of things I plan to ask God about when I get to Heaven.

The being refused to tell him about Jesus Christ, it didn't just not tell him.

The thing is, God has done so in the past. Take Abraham, for example. God never told Him what He planned to do, never told Him about Jesus, not even the name, never told Him about how His salvation would work. The first person to ask God who He was, was Moses, and He told Moses " I AM Who I AM".

Why do you do this, why? Abraham has absolutely nothing to do with this. Yes it's true God did not tell Abraham about Jesus Christ but him not knowing about Jesus Christ would not effect him like it effects us today, on this side of the cross. Abraham was on the other side of the cross where he didn't need to know.

Abraham had to wait for Jesus's resurrection like all the other OT saints. That's why it wasn't important for Abraham to know about it. The message God gave to Abraham was of faith and trust, that is what he needed to know. Jesus Christ dieing and resurrecting makes all the difference. People on this side of the cross need to know about Jesus Christ, it is a must.

John 14:6, Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

And it would do Moses no good at all for him to know about Jesus Christ. I'm surprised that you don't treat the death and resurrection as such an important event in history. It was his death and resurrection that made it possible for all sinners to be forgiven and to give all of us access to heaven. Abraham, Moses or anyother OT saint had no reason to know about Jesus Christ so it's a completely moot point to make that because God didn't tell them about Jesus Christ then this halo being had no reason to tell your ancestor about Jesus Christ. Your ancestor was on the other side of the cross then they were. That means he absolutely needed to know.

Before that He was " The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob".

And Jesus hadn't come yet so Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had no reason, what-so-ever, to know anything about Jesus Christ. It wouldn't have done them any good to know.

Now you can't say that God did that in the OT times, because God, knowing everything, already knew the future and knew that the Word would be called Jesus, that He would die on the cross of a Roman empire that Abraham never even conceived.

Well fine, but my point has been that if there is something that people absolutely needs to know, God will tell them if he is already speaking to them. Those OT saints didn't need to know about Jesus, your ancestor did need to know, yet this being refused to tell him. And what you are doing is making up excuses because you don't want to honestly confront that maybe this halo being really wasn't God. You have made your pre-test building into a safe and trying to make it tougher so that nothing will destory what you have heard all your life. I'm sorry but that is not true pre-testing, that's defense tactics.

What I'm trying to point out is that when you start approaching these sorts of things with any preconceived notions of how the outcome should look like, or what procedures should be followed, or how/when/where/why it should happen, you start putting God in a box. It takes us back to the OP,
most of us are used to the idea of having a Bible, and find it hard to accept that without one, life is still possible, God can still save, and people can still know Him.

So because you don't agree with me I'm the one with the preconceived notion? I admitt I haven't been posting scripture but every scripture you posted so far, except for Proverbs, I have turned them around on you and showed you how you were misapplying them.

Most of us have preconceived notions of how God should operate, what He should do, and how He should judge, but (and I'd bet my life on this!!!) when Judgement Day comes, there will be quite a few surprises. There will be people we never thought would get in getting in, and people who thought they would get in being kicked out. Sorry, but this thought always amuses me, because there's nothing like seeing a person getting what they deserve.

I'm not giving you my preconceived notions on how I think God should operate. The Bible is clear, Jesus did not stutter, No one comes to the Father except through him. There is no other way, period.

And John didn't stutter either, he was very plain and straight to the point; any spirit that does not acknowledge that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is an antichrist.

...which is why I "pre-test" what I'm building so that it can survive on that day...

It's good to pre-test what you are building but if you close your ears to what others are telling you, it will do you no good.

 

[NaLuvena]

I may not have conveyed that in what I wrote but the way I see that verse is that God can take the worse of artists and make perfection. Actually, that is what I said, read the paragraph before it please.

Point noted.

Yeah, I hear yah, that is what we're all learning.

I'm sorry but that sounds like a complete brush off of everything I said, a cop out, an excuse to just keep believeing what you want. With this belief or attitude we would have to accept that everything that comes our way is from God and that it's God who is sending it. After all, who are we to question God or his ways? Yet John admonishes us to test the spirits.

1 John 4:1, Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirit to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

1 John 4:2-3, This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.


Did this halo being acknowledge Jesus Christ? No it did not.

Na, sorry, again, any supernatural force that refuses to acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord and savior is not of God. This is not just an understanding of man but of God also.

The being refused to tell him about Jesus Christ, it didn't just not tell him.

Again, your logic fails you here. You have this knowledge, these people did not. You cannot expect people who have never read the Bible to know 1 John 4.

Secondly I never said that the being refused to tell Him about Jesus. For one thing, they never asked who/what it was. I said it told them that there were men coming, that would teach them about this Supreme power. It did tell them, just not directly. It sent them men who would tell them about God, and how man can be saved.

Why do you do this, why? Abraham has absolutely nothing to do with this. Yes it's true God did not tell Abraham about Jesus Christ but him not knowing about Jesus Christ would not effect him like it effects us today, on this side of the cross. Abraham was on the other side of the cross where he didn't need to know.

The effect of Abraham not knowing Christ is exactly the same as if you, or I did not know Christ. We would be doomed. Whether we are before or after the cross, makes no difference. We all need that sacrifice, that Savior to be saved.

Abraham is the best example I can find from the Bible that you would accept, so that would give us a common basis to work from.

Abraham had to wait for Jesus's resurrection like all the other OT saints. That's why it wasn't important for Abraham to know about it. The message God gave to Abraham was of faith and trust, that is what he needed to know. Jesus Christ dieing and resurrecting makes all the difference. People on this side of the cross need to know about Jesus Christ, it is a must.

John 14:6, Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

And it would do Moses no good at all for him to know about Jesus Christ. I'm surprised that you don't treat the death and resurrection as such an important event in history. It was his death and resurrection that made it possible for all sinners to be forgiven and to give all of us access to heaven. Abraham, Moses or anyother OT saint had no reason to know about Jesus Christ so it's a completely moot point to make that because God didn't tell them about Jesus Christ then this halo being had no reason to tell your ancestor about Jesus Christ. Your ancestor was on the other side of the cross then they were. That means he absolutely needed to know.


And Jesus hadn't come yet so Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had no reason, what-so-ever, to know anything about Jesus Christ. It wouldn't have done them any good to know.

I do treat the death and resurrection as the central, pivotal act in our salvation. I couldn't agree with you more that without this, we are all destined for hell.

The thing is, whether you died before or after Jesus, it's still a matter of faith and trust. There is no other way for those who died before Jesus, or those who died after.

You say that for Abraham, Moses and the others, it was not important for them to know who Jesus was. So why is it different for the rest of us? All that we need to do is put our trust in God. That is the essence of faith.

Isaiah 28:16
So this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
"See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation;
the one who trusts will never be dismayed.

Sometimes we don't even know exactly what we trust, only that we trust. Our faith is not based on what we have read, or what we have heard, or what we have seen, but it is a feeling deep within that somehow, we know that this is true.

Now you say that this halo couldn't have been from God, because it did not tell them about Christ. It directed them to men who would tell them about God and Christ. It made them receptive to these men, so that the missionaries didn't become "the other white meat" upon arrival. It prepared them for this event, this knowledge sharing, and they all accepted Christ, as their Savior, when shown the truth. Why would the halo do that if it was from the Devil?

Also, in Genesis 32, Jacob wrestles with God, and even when he asks God for His Name, God says "Why do you want to know my name?" and blesses Him. There is no record of Jacob being told God's name in this encounter. If your logic is correct, that the Bible must be wrong, because that couldn't be God, or else He would have told Him His name.

Genesis 32

22 That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two maidservants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23 After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. 24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak."
But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me." 27 The man asked him, "What is your name?"
"Jacob," he answered.
28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."
29 Jacob said, "Please tell me your name."
But he replied, "Why do you ask my name?" Then he blessed him there.
30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."
31 The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel, and he was limping because of his hip. 32 Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob's hip was touched near the tendon.

Note that even though there is no mention of God telling him so, Jacob knew it was God.

At this point I want to make this clear. I am not saying that we should not test the spirits sent to us as instructed in 1 John 4. However, how can you test spirits when you don't even know that you have to do this?

Well fine, but my point has been that if there is something that people absolutely needs to know, God will tell them if he is already speaking to them. Those OT saints didn't need to know about Jesus, your ancestor did need to know, yet this being refused to tell him. And what you are doing is making up excuses because you don't want to honestly confront that maybe this halo being really wasn't God. You have made your pre-test building into a safe and trying to make it tougher so that nothing will destory what you have heard all your life. I'm sorry but that is not true pre-testing, that's defense tactics.

Again, they never asked because they didn't know they had to. The halo never refused, he was never asked. I don't know what the halo was, all I know is that it told them of missionaries who were going to teach them about Christ, and how to recognize them, and that they were to be listened to.

If there is something God needs people to know, He will tell them. Sometimes He will speak to them directly, sometimes He will speak through other people, the way the message is conveyed is His choice, the important thing is that it is conveyed.

I am answering your queries as best I can. If your argument is correct, I will give up my position. I will not cling to my position at the risk of my faith.

So because you don't agree with me I'm the one with the preconceived notion? I admitt I haven't been posting scripture but every scripture you posted so far, except for Proverbs, I have turned them around on you and showed you how you were misapplying them.

I say "preconceived" because you are saying that if God talks to someone, He will tell them the truth, and not use anyone else. I'm saying that you need to have more leeway in your thinking than that, or else, you could miss out on things God is doing.

Have you really, seriously thought about what it would be like to know God apart from the Bible? I have listened to people talk about people who have learnt about God without knowing of the existence of the Bible. It is vastly different from how we are saved nowdays.

BTW, do you have any scriptural backing for that idea, that God will tell people about Jesus directly if He is speaking to them? I thought that was our job...i.e. the Great Commission.

I'm not giving you my preconceived notions on how I think God should operate. The Bible is clear, Jesus did not stutter, No one comes to the Father except through him. There is no other way, period.

And they did come to the Father through Him. The halo told them about the missionaries, the missionaries told them about Christ, and they believed. What is the issue you have here?

It's good to pre-test what you are building but if you close your ears to what others are telling you, it will do you no good.

My brother, I am not closing my ears.

Your critique (and I say that respectfully, for you have really been good for me in this) is most welcome, and you have forced me to examine all of this in great depth and detail. In my family, this story is "taboo" in the sense that we cannot openly criticize it, yet that is what we need to be able to see if it is true. If I didn't want that, i would have never posted it here, for all and sundry to be given the opportunity to poke holes in it.

God bless you for the opportunity to exercise my faith, and examine my beliefs.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Hi NaLuvena

I really don't think it pays too much anymore to go on and on and on as the both of us are now going to just end up talking past each other. At least I need a break from this for the night. One point I will make that you have recently brought up; it is not a requirement that a person ask a spirit whether they acknowledge Jesus Christ. All John said was that if the spirit does not acknowledge Jesus Christ, asking is not required. What, is God under the same "don't ask, don't tell" policy that the US Army has with homosexuals? I don't think so.

I thought you would find this interesting so I decided to give a somewhat brief explanation of a theory I have. It's basically an over all view point of what has happend in the past and what will happen in the future. This may clear somethings up for you as to why I am sitting here being so adamant with you.

When Jesus Christ died and rose again He defeated death, but that is not all He defeated. He defeated and passed judgement on his enemies; the principalities and powers, against the rulers of the darkness, the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places, and Satan himself. They were given a short time by which at the end of that time the penalty would be handed out.

John 12:31, Now is the judgement of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

1 Peter 3:19, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison

Colossians 2:15, Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

Satan and all his minions know that their time is running out but I believe they think they still have a chance at the end to win against God, or force a pardon, or even a reduced sentence. I'm sure that after Jesus' resurrection they had a council meeting and talked this over. They decided that their main efforts of attack was going to be centered on the end of this world's system, the day of their reckoning.

So they drew up the plans and deception was decided to be thier main weapon. To decieve man. Now there are many different armies within this fallen angel host and they all have different jobs to do. For some, it's not a worry to them if they get involved in the goings on with missionaries. As long as they can sink their claws into what is happening and work their deception with willing individuals who are easily swayed, they believe they can have some control. They aren't concerned that thousands will convert to christianity at the time, especially when it's ineventable, their main focus is on the millions they can decieve in the end.

What am I getting at? I believe in UFO's, I believe in halo's, I believe in angels that talk to little children and show them miracles of the sun. I believe in appiritions who desguise themselves as a young Jewish virgin who demands that churches be made in her honor. I believe in angels who prophesy, even correctly at times. I believe in angels who can show a form of godliness and say and do good things but never coming to the point of acknowledging Jesus Christ as savior and Lord.

I believe that these fallen angels, as well as demons, are behind this deception. And I believe that just before this present world ends, they will run-amuck. I believe the nephilim will be back in full force and mens hearts will fail them when they see what's in store.

Yeah I'm a nut, just crazy enough to have an open mind to study things that others would pay no mind to. Ehh, at least I bet you can't say that I'm not entertaining

God bless you too brother!

 

[nephilimiyr]

OK, I'm going to let my little imagination fly here for a moment and paint you a picture of what I'm thinking is the possible truth to this. Besides, I'm tired and can't get to sleep

The dark evil forces at work on Figi were enjoying their time as always, keeping the people bound in their sins of murder, canibalism, rape, and incest. Then one day a higher up from Satan's court arrived with a memorandum of some depressing news.

They all gathered around as the vip started to speak. The message was that the gig is up. God himself has made a decree that it is time that Figi was claimed for the kingdom of God. He goes onto say, with battle we could probably thwart the first incoming missionaries but God seems pretty determined to win this war, as you guys have so loyally made such an wonderful evil mess here. As a result, our Lord Satan has called into effect Operation Endtimes Run-amuck!

We are going to decieve one of these humans by making him believe that he is talking to a shining silver disc in the sky claiming to be God, but actually he will be talking to us. From then on it will become legend and all will believe it until it's time to reveal to them who this man was actually talking to, when the UFO's start landing of course. This will be our glorious final hour! Presenting ourselves as the real gods of this earth and decieving the people as their creators from another world.

I shouldn't have to remind all of you that when this goes into effect, all the worst fun you have had here will be over. Now don't grumble, we know we can't win against God but it wont be all that bad, think of all the fun you'll have while picking on all those new christians! Muahhahahahahahaha!

Oh, and by the way, Satan will be coming here to do the Job himself, he doesn't trust any of you pathetic worms to do the job correctly. Besides, we know that none of you have manifested a silver shining disc in the sky before. Now He is coming soon so prepare yourselves!

 

[New_Wineskin]

Ok I'm glad you added that last part Cos I was just about to say..what about Neph's idea about the gifts fizzling out?

The gifts can only fizzle out if the Lord doesn't desire to do anything in that direction . They aren't about people knowing about gifts but about people seeking Him and He directs in a certain way .

If after five years , people still didn't get the point that they didn't *need* the Scriptures and the focus was to be on Him , I would pity them .

 

[New_Wineskin]

I understand just what you mean friend.

Folks seem to forget,that those who wrote the scriptures,at one point were just like you and me..

They heard God,but the difference is their revelations became scripture.

But we too hear the living God...

Glad you stopped by.

Amen . A beauty of the New Covenant is that we are set back to the place where writings are not needed and our teacher is the Holy Spirit .

thanks

 

[NaLuvena]

OK, I'm going to let my little imagination fly here for a moment and paint you a picture of what I'm thinking is the possible truth to this. Besides, I'm tired and can't get to sleep

The dark evil forces at work on Figi were enjoying their time as always, keeping the people bound in their sins of murder, canibalism, rape, and incest. Then one day a higher up from Satan's court arrived with a memorandum of some depressing news.

They all gathered around as the vip started to speak. The message was that the gig is up. God himself has made a decree that it is time that Figi was claimed for the kingdom of God. He goes onto say, with battle we could probably thwart the first incoming missionaries but God seems pretty determined to win this war, as you guys have so loyally made such an wonderful evil mess here. As a result, our Lord Satan has called into effect Operation Endtimes Run-amuck!

We are going to decieve one of these humans by making him believe that he is talking to a shining silver disc in the sky claiming to be God, but actually he will be talking to us. From then on it will become legend and all will believe it until it's time to reveal to them who this man was actually talking to, when the UFO's start landing of course. This will be our glorious final hour! Presenting ourselves as the real gods of this earth and decieving the people as their creators from another world.

I shouldn't have to remind all of you that when this goes into effect, all the worst fun you have had here will be over. Now don't grumble, we know we can't win against God but it wont be all that bad, think of all the fun you'll have while picking on all those new christians! Muahhahahahahahaha!

Oh, and by the way, Satan will be coming here to do the Job himself, he doesn't trust any of you pathetic worms to do the job correctly. Besides, we know that none of you have manifested a silver shining disc in the sky before. Now He is coming soon so prepare yourselves!

Wow....You did let your imagination fly!!!!!

No, I don't think you're a nut. I actually think that you are brave enough to consider the possibilities that lie outside your comfort zone, and that earns my respect.

Your scenario could be true except for one detail. If Satan sends some of his minions, or comes himself to deceive someone, why would he tell the deceived person to expect, and accept some men who would arrive, and teach them about God?

You still work from the knowledge that we are to test all spirits. People who meet God this way, do not have that knowledge. As far as we know, they might have thought that this being they were meeting was just a stronger spirit, and not God as we know Him.

That said, I admire the way you approach your faith.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Wow....You did let your imagination fly!!!!!

LOL, I know, that was fun to write!

No, I don't think you're a nut. I actually think that you are brave enough to consider the possibilities that lie outside your comfort zone, and that earns my respect.

That's quite a compliment, thank you!

Your scenario could be true except for one detail. If Satan sends some of his minions, or comes himself to deceive someone, why would he tell the deceived person to expect, and accept some men who would arrive, and teach them about God?

As I have stated before, they will gladly accept defeat in a battle, as long as they might win the war or force a draw at the end. They are masters of adaptation. They knew once God set his mind on sending the kingdom to Figi that they would eventually fail so they adapted to the changes, even welcomed it I might add.

The deception would not work if their message was "don't listen to those men who are soon to come" because they know it is fruitless to fight God's will. So they planted the seeds of deception. Perhaps not to totally deceive the people at that time, 300 to 400 years ago, but to make their ultimate plan of deception work for the end times.

You see, their end time deception includes that all religions are true to a certain extent. That all the worlds religions, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, etc., etc., is based on them, not the God we know and follow.

When they come, they will say that that halo was them, but that it's now time to put away this false worship of Yahwey and Yeshua, and worship the true gods of this world and the supreme one, Satan.

You still work from the knowledge that we are to test all spirits. People who meet God this way, do not have that knowledge. As far as we know, they might have thought that this being they were meeting was just a stronger spirit, and not God as we know Him.

It doesn't matter what you or I know, as long as the deception will work for all the unbelieving people.

That said, I admire the way you approach your faith.

Thank you, another compliment that I will hold dear.

And what I admire about you is that you are very articulate and explain your beliefs very thoroughly, even though I disagree. I hate guessing what people believe, with you I don't have to.

 

[pinetree]

The gifts can only fizzle out if the Lord doesn't desire to do anything in that direction . They aren't about people knowing about gifts but about people seeking Him and He directs in a certain way .

If after five years , people still didn't get the point that they didn't *need* the Scriptures and the focus was to be on Him , I would pity them .

It is a most interesting thought you pose my friend.

 

[NaLuvena]

LOL, I know, that was fun to write!

That's quite a compliment, thank you!

It's the truth. Abraham was blessed when he left to go wherever God was going to tell him to go. He would never have become the father of the faithful staying where he was.

As I have stated before, they will gladly accept defeat in a battle, as long as they might win the war or force a draw at the end. They are masters of adaptation. They knew once God set his mind on sending the kingdom to Figi that they would eventually fail so they adapted to the changes, even welcomed it I might add.

The deception would not work if their message was "don't listen to those men who are soon to come" because they know it is fruitless to fight God's will. So they planted the seeds of deception. Perhaps not to totally deceive the people at that time, 300 to 400 years ago, but to make their ultimate plan of deception work for the end times.

You see, their end time deception includes that all religions are true to a certain extent. That all the worlds religions, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, etc., etc., is based on them, not the God we know and follow.

When they come, they will say that that halo was them, but that it's now time to put away this false worship of Yahwey and Yeshua, and worship the true gods of this world and the supreme one, Satan.

It doesn't matter what you or I know, as long as the deception will work for all the unbelieving people.

True.

However, this I know. This is one descendant of theirs that will not leave the worship of Yahweh and Yeshua. There are others like me in my family.

Thank you, another compliment that I will hold dear.

And what I admire about you is that you are very articulate and explain your beliefs very thoroughly, even though I disagree. I hate guessing what people believe, with you I don't have to.

Thank you as well for the compliments. God bless you my brother.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Again, your logic fails you here. You have this knowledge, these people did not. You cannot expect people who have never read the Bible to know 1 John 4.

What I see myself failing in is your logic
Just because your ancestor was not privy to what John said about testing the spirits does not at all make what John said untrue or your ancestor exempt from the principal. It is a standard principal of how humans should deal with the natural and the supernatural, whether people are in the know or not.

Your ancestor did not know about it so he went along with the message of the halo. But now that we are involved in this we can put the halo to the test. I have and I see it failing the test. Anyone or anything can claim to be God, that doesn't make it true. And I have showed you that I am weird enough to believe that beings not loyal to God can and do impersonate him and may even point people to a belief in God and religion.

Secondly I never said that the being refused to tell Him about Jesus. For one thing, they never asked who/what it was. I said it told them that there were men coming, that would teach them about this Supreme power. It did tell them, just not directly. It sent them men who would tell them about God, and how man can be saved.

Again, the halo neglected to acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord and because that is the most important message that this being could have told him, when it failed to tell them I therefore say it refused to tell them.

I look at all the other cases, on this side of the cross, where people, non-believers who never heard of Jesus Christ, saw visions and or talked directly to God. In every case it was Jesus who spoke to them. He identified himself as Jesus Christ, claimed to be the Son of God and that He had died and rose again as a payment for their sins. Scores of Muslims in the Middle East are recieving these visions. There is no middle man, there is no halo, there are no missionaries, there is no being saying that He is the supreme power and creator of the universe. There is just Jesus giving a simple and straight forward message of himself. Any time a supernatural being fails to do that should be looked upon as very suspicous and or false.

The effect of Abraham not knowing Christ is exactly the same as if you, or I did not know Christ. We would be doomed. Whether we are before or after the cross, makes no difference. We all need that sacrifice, that Savior to be saved.

Ok, I see where you are coming from.
Romans 4:3, What does the scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

And this is what allowed Abraham and his descendants up to the law of Moses to go on to heaven once Jesus paved the way. I agree that when the New Testament started we all basically fell back into the Abrahamic covenant of faith brings you to righteousness, but acceptence of Christ has to be the thing that binds that together for those living in the new testament. Abraham didn't need Christ, all he needed was his faith.

I do treat the death and resurrection as the central, pivotal act in our salvation. I couldn't agree with you more that without this, we are all destined for hell.

Opps, I didn't say anything about it being the central most pivotal act in out salvation, although that is true, there's a difference in what I said. I'm talking about the event itself and it's point in history. Now that Jesus Christ has come and gone and has started the New Testament, all people afterwards are in need to know about it. All peoples before the event were not in need to know about it. Abraham only need his belief in God to be credited with righteousness. Moses and the Jews up to the event need to observe the law and ordinances in order for salvation. All people after the event needs to acept Jesus Christ as Lord and savior in order for salvation. It's a pivotal point in histroy. They all were before the cross, we are on the other side of the cross.

The thing is, whether you died before or after Jesus, it's still a matter of faith and trust. There is no other way for those who died before Jesus, or those who died after.

Well then what did Jesus suffer and die for then if all we need is faith and trust and nothing more? Again:
John 14:6, Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

You're telling me that Jesus is not the way, but our faith and trust is. Sounds like a works based salvation to me.

You say that for Abraham, Moses and the others, it was not important for them to know who Jesus was. So why is it different for the rest of us? All that we need to do is put our trust in God. That is the essence of faith.

It wasn't important for them to know about Jesus Christ because they were all under different covenants. there was the covenant with Abraham, the covenant with Moses, and the New Testament. All three are closely connexted but different all the same.

And if all we need to do is trust in God then Jesus never had to go through what He had to go through. If only you were there to stop him from going to the cross, He could have saved himself alot of suffering.

This is taking too long and I'm only half done. I'm taking a break!

 

[nephilimiyr]

However, this I know. This is one descendant of theirs that will not leave the worship of Yahweh and Yeshua. There are others like me in my family.

Praise the Lord for that!

Thank you as well for the compliments. God bless you my brother.

[/quote]
You are proving to be quite a challenge for me, I too am building and need a good test every once in a while