Lawsuits and the believer

[SpiritPsalmist]

There is a big difference between defending oneself and bringing a lawsuit against someone. That is why the person who files a lawsuit is called a plaintiff and the person they are suing is called a defendant.

A defamation suit isn't about defending oneself. A defamation suit is about collecting money from someone who told lies about you which caused you to suffer monetary damages. It is meant to compensate someone for damage done to their reputation (like being unable to get a job, etc), it does not defend them against the attack to their reputation.

Defending oneself in such a case would be getting the slanderer to publish a retraction. That has already been done in this case.

Now the preacher is seeking revenge. A pound of flesh in the form of mullah.



In Esther the Jews were defending their lives, not their reputations. You know as well as I that there is an enormous difference between the two.

Paul using his Roman citizenship to get out of jail is also dissimilar to the present circumstance. He was not getting revenge against anyone by doing so. He didn't seek to have the jailers fired, or pay him money for what they did to him. He simply exercised his rights. His situation was akin to an American demanding an attorney when charged with a crime.



Agreed. I just happen to think that Scripture really does address this issue for us. And the Holy Spirit will not contradict what Jesus has already told us.

If someone says something bad about us, Jesus told us to bless them, not to seek redress in the courts.

I'm seriously disheartened by the attitude of so many Christians in such situations. Love doesn't seek it's own. Love doesn't keep count of wrongs.

We are told to forgive. Jesus said if someone slaps you in the face to offer the other cheek.

And what harm did 20/20 really do to the guy? What did it hurt? His pride, nothing more.

Also, I think that if someone is telling lies about us, we should trust in God to vindicate us and to avenge us.

I just find it sad that Christians are so quick to fight back when treated badly. How is that different than what the world does? Even the heathens love those who love them. We're different (supposedly) because we love those who hate us.

I'm not trying to set a rule about believers never standing up for what is right. I just thing that standing up for "ourselves" is not "right".

5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
(Philippians 2:5-8)
​

If a man has the attitude of Christ (i.e. making himself nothing) will he care that his name or reputation is slandered? How can someone who thinks himself "nothing" be humiliated by someone else?

I hear what you're saying, I'm just not sure that I totally agree. Again, I can point to the many threads here in these forums where believers have taken up emotional arms and attacked their fellow believers because of what they heard or read on Inside Edition and/or others like it. I don't know about Fred Price but I know when this has happened to other ministers of the gospel, it was not only the minister by themselves who were affected. Their spouse, their children, their parents, everyone they were attached to were affected. It's not "only" one persons name and reputation. It could hurt their entire family.

Don't be disheartened. I think most of us talk quick but when it would actually come down to making the action, I think a great many of us would choose to settle for the retraction and not push it further.

 

[heron]

A lawsuit takes time, and usually money. If Price lost the lawsuit, where would the money and time and emotional energy come from? Either his pocket or the congregation. Time out of his salaried commitment to serve his congregation.

What does a lawsuit accomplish? Hopefully it shows someone their limits, and keeps them from doing the same in the future. But since the network is in the business of juicy news and Stossel's job is to keep it coming, then they are unlikely to see this as a setback.

Retractions were already aired.

A lawsuit also is intended for financial compensation. Possibly Price's ministry endured some loss of income after that show, but really -- should the lack of donations be supplemented by taking from a commercial investigative news show? Wouldn't we want investigations to continue, and the truth be revealed? (However irresponsibly they edit clips.)

It makes a difference whether Price instigated a personal case, or a case for his congregation. If he was concerned about personal defamation and loss, while he was on a salary, then his intent for gain is even more questionable than the size of his mansion. If he were to think ethically about the situation, a large financial settlement would not be proposed. ("Unspecified damages.")

A lawsuit becomes a public statement. His stance was to fight back, but was it a topic worth fighting over? Spending a possible year in litigation (I don't know how long these cases average... I wouldn't guess this one would take long).

Most businesses know that news publicity is worth more than advertisement. An article brings in more customers than an ad. He could have fought fire with fire, and used the media to his advantage.

(July 2007... does anyone know how it turned out?)

Price and his wife have sold over 2 million books. When a minister has reached this point in popularity, it is difficult to judge where the mansion money came from, as followers have made the choice to purchase commercial products.

http://www.ministrywatch.com/mw2.1/F_SumRpt.asp?EIN=954332151

 

[imperfectchristian]

Sorry twiggy, but defamation of character is NOT a criminal offense. It's a civil matter.

Frankly, I'm surprised at the responses to this thread. Who would have thunk that the lawyer would be the least litigious one here?

Anywho... I personally don't see how Christ's instructions to us to turn the other cheek, to bless those who spitefully use us, etc, square at all with suing someone for slander.

I also don't think that Christians should generally be in the business of actively suing someone in order to defend their own reputations. We, IMHO, shouldn't be putting so much stock in ourselves. Let our names be mud... that way God gets the glory for anything good that happens.

JMHO.

So the media can go on falsely accusing people and getting away with it?

Do you think we should have turned the other cheek at Pearl Harbor or do think we should not have prosecuted the Nazi's who were guilty of war crimes or allowed Hitler to take over the world?

What about something more recent...how about let's forgive bin laden...stop trying to hunt him down or even better ...something that our country is really good at....forgive all these big banks and give them our tax dollars for practicing bad business and then let's not prosecute them for misusing those tax dollars.

Heck...let's just do away with the department of defense, the FBI and every other law enforcement agency.

Since we are such big fans of mercy, let's just not hold anyone accountable for any of their actions.

Honestly their are much bigger issues than slander by a news giant, which should be seen as a public disgrace, but the state of affairs in our country has me seriously concerned.

It seems like their is a public acceptance of people who act unjustly. This bailout for financial institutions is the biggest blatant betrayal of our founding principles that I am aware of in our country's history.

By not holding people accountable it seems people do not care about justice or the welfare of their country or their countrymen anymore. Their is a "look out for no. #1" status quo that if it does not change, could result in the unraveling of ourselves as a society and a nation.

We do not seek justice as Christians for the purposes of vengence or vendetta, but for the love of our neighbor and what is right.

 

[imperfectchristian]

Retractions were already aired.

Well I might not go after them since they aired retractions, but my point is that mercy and justice go hand in hand.

 

[ydouxist]

I wonder what would have happened if this man and his Church had chosen not to forgive.

Frances was outside kind of ushering people into the service. As he was going to go lock up the gate four men drunk came up to him.
Frances was trying to figure out what they wanted when they started to beat on him with baseball bats. They beat and stabbed him 27 times.

Friends took him to the hospital where Frances was pronounced dead. The whole church came together and began praying for him.
Frances was killed at around eleven o'clock at night, around twelve-fifteen; twelve-thirty in the morning he came back to life. But when he came back to life he was a total mess, his face was all swollen and couldn't speak. Just before they put him out for the night, he was able whisper "forgive them,"
This got back to the church and that morning the police in South Africa caught one of these guys. They were very proud of themselves because they don't normally catch murder suspects. They went to the church and said,
"We caught one of the men who beat your friend to death, we need you to come down and sign some papers and press charges. The church knew that Frances had forgiven them so they said no, we are not going to press charges, we want to forgive them also. The police were a little upset, that is not really the best way to handle crime in South Africa.
The Police insisted they press charges. But the Church with one voice said, "Absolutely not, we forgive him."
The moment they forgave him as a body, Frances was instantly healed in the hospital.
All of his bruises, all of his cuts, everything was gone immediately.
Frances later led his attacker to Jesus.

 

[Tamara224]

So the media can go on falsely accusing people and getting away with it?

[FONT=&quot]

Our battle is not against flesh and blood. Why worry what the media says about anything when we all know that Truth cannot be found there anyway?

Yes, let them falsely accuse all they want to. Our trust is in God, not the world. Let us be about His business and ignore what the world says about us. We already know they hate us, fighting back isn't going to change that, it's only going to show our hypocrisy.

Has the world ever slandered anyone more than they have our Lord? What has He done about it? Forgiven and forgiven and forgiven again. Is a servant better than His master? If they hated Him, they'll hate us. What should we do about it? Forgive and forgive and forgive again.
[/FONT]

Do you think we should have turned the other cheek at Pearl Harbor or do think we should not have prosecuted the Nazi's who were guilty of war crimes or allowed Hitler to take over the world?

What about something more recent...how about let's forgive bin laden...stop trying to hunt him down or even better ...something that our country is really good at....forgive all these big banks and give them our tax dollars for practicing bad business and then let's not prosecute them for misusing those tax dollars.

Heck...let's just do away with the department of defense, the FBI and every other law enforcement agency.

Please don't overreact to what I've said. I'm speaking of a single Christian leader and his reaction to personal insults/lies. The Bible speaks clearly on what we ought to do in such a situation. Forgive, turn the other cheek.

Show grace. Freely we have received, freely we give.

What nations should do or should not do in response to violent attacks and evil is a completely different issue. Nations are not and cannot be members of the Body of Christ. They are not called to be the light to the world. We are.

Since we are such big fans of mercy, let's just not hold anyone accountable for any of their actions.

[FONT=&quot]You mean the way Jesus doesn't hold us accountable for our actions?

Let God handle it. That's what I'm saying. If they need to be "held accountable" they will be. That's not our job. We forgive as we have been forgiven. We show them an example of Jesus. Remember how Jesus forgave those who crucified him? If He can forgive them, is it really so difficult for us to forgive when someone tells a lie about us?

If He can forgive us for the terrible sins that we have done against Him and others (we've all done worse than tell a lie about someone), then why should we find it so difficult to forgive for slander?
[/FONT]

Honestly their are much bigger issues than slander by a news giant, which should be seen as a public disgrace, but the state of affairs in our country has me seriously concerned.

I am concerned too. I'm concerned with the state of the Church in this country. I'm concerned that we talk about forgiveness and grace but we don't practice it, we don't live it. We care too much about our own personal "rights" and "reputations" and harms done against us.

It seems like their is a public acceptance of people who act unjustly. This bailout for financial institutions is the biggest blatant betrayal of our founding principles that I am aware of in our country's history.

I agree with you as to the bailout and that justice is difficult to be found in our country.

I disagree with how you think those problems will be solved. Our job as Christians is to be a light to the world to draw people to Christ NOT to be unforgiving of those who insult or slander us.

By not holding people accountable it seems people do not care about justice or the welfare of their country or their countrymen anymore. Their is a "look out for no. #1" status quo that if it does not change, could result in the unraveling of ourselves as a society and a nation.

Wait... the "look out for no #1" status quo is exactly what is being continued by suing people for defamation. If we want to change that status quo, the way to do it is to start looking out for others instead of ourselves. Which means forgiving people when they wrong us, not suing them.

We do not seek justice as Christians for the purposes of vengence or vendetta, but for the love of our neighbor and what is right.

How is it loving one's neighbor to "hold him/her accountable" in a court of law for slight personal insults?

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I wonder what would have happened if this man and his Church had chosen not to forgive.

Frances was outside kind of ushering people into the service. As he was going to go lock up the gate four men drunk came up to him.
Frances was trying to figure out what they wanted when they started to beat on him with baseball bats. They beat and stabbed him 27 times.

Friends took him to the hospital where Frances was pronounced dead. The whole church came together and began praying for him.
Frances was killed at around eleven o'clock at night, around twelve-fifteen; twelve-thirty in the morning he came back to life. But when he came back to life he was a total mess, his face was all swollen and couldn't speak. Just before they put him out for the night, he was able whisper "forgive them,"
This got back to the church and that morning the police in South Africa caught one of these guys. They were very proud of themselves because they don't normally catch murder suspects. They went to the church and said,
"We caught one of the men who beat your friend to death, we need you to come down and sign some papers and press charges. The church knew that Frances had forgiven them so they said no, we are not going to press charges, we want to forgive them also. The police were a little upset, that is not really the best way to handle crime in South Africa.
The Police insisted they press charges. But the Church with one voice said, "Absolutely not, we forgive him."
The moment they forgave him as a body, Frances was instantly healed in the hospital.
All of his bruises, all of his cuts, everything was gone immediately.
Frances later led his attacker to Jesus.

That's a wonderful story but they don't all work out the same way. A person can forgive but that does not mean (in my opinion anyway) that crime is to go unpunished. How many other people may be killed because the attacker is let go? I think not.

 

[jeolmstead]

[FONT=&quot]Our battle is not against flesh and blood. Why worry what the media says about anything when we all know that Truth cannot be found there anyway?

[FONT=&quot]Yes, let them falsely accuse all they want to. Our trust is in God, not the world. Let us be about His business and ignore what the world says about us. We already know they hate us, fighting back isn't going to change that, it's only going to show our hypocrisy.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Has the world ever slandered anyone more than they have our Lord? What has He done about it? Forgiven and forgiven and forgiven again. Is a servant better than His master? If they hated Him, they'll hate us. What should we do about it? Forgive and forgive and forgive again.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
Please don't overreact to what I've said. I'm speaking of a single Christian leader and his reaction to personal insults/lies. The Bible speaks clearly on what we ought to do in such a situation. Forgive, turn the other cheek.

Show grace. Freely we have received, freely we give.

What nations should do or should not do in response to violent attacks and evil is a completely different issue. Nations are not and cannot be members of the Body of Christ. They are not called to be the light to the world. We are.


[FONT=&quot]You mean the way Jesus doesn't hold us accountable for our actions?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]Let God handle it. That's what I'm saying. If they need to be "held accountable" they will be. That's not our job. We forgive as we have been forgiven. We show them an example of Jesus. Remember how Jesus forgave those who crucified him? If He can forgive them, is it really so difficult for us to forgive when someone tells a lie about us?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If He can forgive us for the terrible sins that we have done against Him and others (we've all done worse than tell a lie about someone), then why should we find it so difficult to forgive for slander?[/FONT]
[/FONT]
I am concerned too. I'm concerned with the state of the Church in this country. I'm concerned that we talk about forgiveness and grace but we don't practice it, we don't live it. We care too much about our own personal "rights" and "reputations" and harms done against us.

I agree with you as to the bailout and that justice is difficult to be found in our country.

I disagree with how you think those problems will be solved. Our job as Christians is to be a light to the world to draw people to Christ NOT to be unforgiving of those who insult or slander us.

Wait... the "look out for no #1" status quo is exactly what is being continued by suing people for defamation. If we want to change that status quo, the way to do it is to start looking out for others instead of ourselves. Which means forgiving people when they wrong us, not suing them.

How is it loving one's neighbor to "hold him/her accountable" in a court of law for slight personal insults?

QFT

John O.

 

[ydouxist]

QFT

John O.

QFT ?
Quoted for truth???

 

[imperfectchristian]

[FONT=&quot]Our battle is not against flesh and blood. Why worry what the media says about anything when we all know that Truth cannot be found there anyway?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I'm not worried about the media...I just want to see justice come to a huge media giant so they will stop falsely accusing people. Are saying this is an unGodly / unChristian position to take?

[FONT=&quot]Yes, let them falsely accuse all they want to. Our trust is in God, not the world. Let us be about His business and ignore what the world says about us. We already know they hate us, fighting back isn't going to change that, it's only going to show our hypocrisy.[/FONT]

I will always fight for what I believe to be right, I will also forgive.

[FONT=&quot]Has the world ever slandered anyone more than they have our Lord? What has He done about it? Forgiven and forgiven and forgiven again. Is a servant better than His master? If they hated Him, they'll hate us. What should we do about it? Forgive and forgive and forgive again.[/FONT]

I do forgive, but I also do not abandon justice. If you are a Christian who has commited murder and you are scheduled to die on death row, then I think you should still die. I can love you as a brother and forgive you and still say it is right for you to pay for your crime.

It's not a question of eternal forgiveness, it is a question of justice.

[/FONT]

Please don't overreact to what I've said. I'm speaking of a single Christian leader and his reaction to personal insults/lies. The Bible speaks clearly on what we ought to do in such a situation. Forgive, turn the other cheek.

Show grace. Freely we have received, freely we give.

What nations should do or should not do in response to violent attacks and evil is a completely different issue. Nations are not and cannot be members of the Body of Christ. They are not called to be the light to the world. We are.

I was using hyperboyle. If a nation is totally Christian (hypothetically) then how do you skirt around that? What if you were President?

To me social justice and spirituality are separate issues. That is why I can go to the prison and ministerto and forgive the pedophile while he / she remains safely in prison where they belong.

[FONT=&quot]You mean the way Jesus doesn't hold us accountable for our actions?[/FONT]

God certainly did and does hold us accountable for our actions...and Jesus took our punishment for us. Jesus is not the abandonment of the law and of righteousness...He is the fulfillment of it.

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Let God handle it. That's what I'm saying. If they need to be "held accountable" they will be. That's not our job. We forgive as we have been forgiven. We show them an example of Jesus. Remember how Jesus forgave those who crucified him? If He can forgive them, is it really so difficult for us to forgive when someone tells a lie about us?[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Well none of us are in that position so we cannot honestly say. My response would be "by the grace of God!" [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]My point is that it is not wrong to seek righteousness and justice.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]If He can forgive us for the terrible sins that we have done against Him and others (we've all done worse than tell a lie about someone), then why should we find it so difficult to forgive for slander?[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Certainly...but God does not condone sin by sweeping it under the rug. God demands total payment for sins commited.[/FONT]

I am concerned too. I'm concerned with the state of the Church in this country. I'm concerned that we talk about forgiveness and grace but we don't practice it, we don't live it. We care too much about our own personal "rights" and "reputations" and harms done against us.

I agree with you as to the bailout and that justice is difficult to be found in our country.

Their has to be an acknowledgement of the righteousness of God coupled with an acknowledgement of our own sinfulness and thus need for God in Jesus Christ before their can truly be forgiveness and grace.

I disagree with how you think those problems will be solved. Our job as Christians is to be a light to the world to draw people to Christ NOT to be unforgiving of those who insult or slander us.

Wait... the "look out for no #1" status quo is exactly what is being continued by suing people for defamation. If we want to change that status quo, the way to do it is to start looking out for others instead of ourselves. Which means forgiving people when they wrong us, not suing them.

Forgiving people...not huge companies whose only conscience is money.

How is it loving one's neighbor to "hold him/her accountable" in a court of law for slight personal insults?

Not exactly a true paralllel here. It's a huge media giant. However to answer your question...if those insults end up destroying other people's lives by falsely representing other people because the media giant witch hunts were not brought to justice, by those who had the ability to do it...how is that loving your neighbor?

 

[heron]

I doubt that the accusation was completely false. Price's sermon quote was taken out of context, but he is still wealthy from the donations and purchases of followers.

The salaries of megachurch pastors in this decade have been compared against the standards of CEO salaries, and deemed reasonable. Some have salaries of $500k per year, which is not considered out of control. They manage a large staff, make decisions over a large building, often oversee schools, training ministries, tape/media ministries, travel schedules.

He does make money. He does carry the weight of many responsibilities. The money does come from believers.

When the investigative journalists try to make a good story out of it, they add the music and edit the quotes and spice it up a bit. The foundational question is important enough without having to filter and pump it -- are ministers making too much money?

There is a public assumption that embezzlement is involved when these ministers become rich. But it's easy enough for them to gain wealth without dishonesty, if they run a tight ship.

Where should we set our personal limits, on whether the gospel is sold for our gain. Whether we get free vacations out of mission trips. Whether a penthouse suite is really necessary for the protection of a worker sent out, when Jesus said to take nothing on your back when you go to the next town.

It is fair that they make money for efforts comparable to corporate management. But how far should we allow ourselves to justify our actions, in personally gaining from the gospel?

Moses appointed Levites to do the religious work, and did not allow them to gain from being landowners. Paul wrote about not wanting to take money for his services.

It is ludicrous for a wealthy pastor to demand a lawsuit over details of his posessions, when he has income from 2 million books and decades of large salaries. He had a right to the income, because it was approved by his congregation and board, and the IRS. But it is not small, and he should not pretend that it is. He is wealthy.

A pastor should be an example of ethics. Trying to cover a large income with excuses and blame is so counter-productive.

 

[imperfectchristian]

I doubt that the accusation was completely false. Price's sermon quote was taken out of context, but he is still wealthy from the donations and purchases of followers.

The salaries of megachurch pastors in this decade have been compared against the standards of CEO salaries, and deemed reasonable. Some have salaries of $500k per year, which is not considered out of control. They manage a large staff, make decisions over a large building, often oversee schools, training ministries, tape/media ministries, travel schedules.

He does make money. He does carry the weight of many responsibilities. The money does come from believers.

When the investigative journalists try to make a good story out of it, they add the music and edit the quotes and spice it up a bit. The foundational question is important enough without having to filter and pump it -- are ministers making too much money?

There is a public assumption that embezzlement is involved when these ministers become rich. But it's easy enough for them to gain wealth without dishonesty, if they run a tight ship.

Where should we set our personal limits, on whether the gospel is sold for our gain. Whether we get free vacations out of mission trips. Whether a penthouse suite is really necessary for the protection of a worker sent out, when Jesus said to take nothing on your back when you go to the next town.

It is fair that they make money for efforts comparable to corporate management. But how far should we allow ourselves to justify our actions, in personally gaining from the gospel?

Moses appointed Levites to do the religious work, and did not allow them to gain from being landowners. Paul wrote about not wanting to take money for his services.

It is ludicrous for a wealthy pastor to demand a lawsuit over details of his posessions, when he has income from 2 million books and decades of large salaries. He had a right to the income, because it was approved by his congregation and board, and the IRS. But it is not small, and he should not pretend that it is. He is wealthy.

A pastor should be an example of ethics. Trying to cover a large income with excuses and blame is so counter-productive.

Honestly...my concern and focus is not Fred Price or his congregants. My point of focus in this instance is the accountability that is suppose to be present in journalism and news media and enforcing it. News giants need to be held accountable, especially by Christians.

Should Fred Price take them to court...that is his decision to make and I won't judge him for it either way, but one thing I am certain of is that the american people should hold news media accountable (all news media) and verify what they are reporting as fact and not some juiced up story to slander someone whether they are a preacher, politician or whatever.

Christians should be the champions and voice of integrity in society.

 

[Tamara224]

[FONT=&quot]I'm not worried about the media...I just want to see justice come to a huge media giant so they will stop falsely accusing people. Are saying this is an unGodly / unChristian position to take?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

I'm saying that's not our battle. I'm saying that the fight you're fighting is a waste of energy because it won't accomplish anything.

Our battle is not against flesh and blood. Period.

Holding people accountable will NEVER change the corruption and sinfulness of the world.

If we want it to change, we have to start by doing what Jesus told us to do. It contradicts everything that we think is the prudent or logical or common sense way.

I will always fight for what I believe to be right, I will also forgive.

So much of what you say sounds exactly like what I have said in the past. It makes me face my own hypocrisy. I guess I've changed my opinions on things like this.

I no longer believe that it is possible to fight and forgive at the same time.

I do forgive, but I also do not abandon justice. If you are a Christian who has commited murder and you are scheduled to die on death row, then I think you should still die. I can love you as a brother and forgive you and still say it is right for you to pay for your crime.

I think you are wrong to equate this situation (a believer suing someone for defamation) with murderers, pedophiles and tyrants being held accountable by the government for their CRIMES. Slander is not a crime, slander does not hurt anything but possibly a person's reputation. I refer again to my first posts on this subject. Believers should have the same attitude as Jesus - making ourselves NOTHING (of no reputation). The Bible teaches us that governments have been ordained by God to carry out punishment for crimes. That is their job, their purpose. So if you want to support the death penalty, I personally see no contradiction there (I personally believe that governments are entirely justified in choosing to carry out the death penalty but I do not choose to spend any of my time or energy advocating for it irl).

You are focusing on the supposed injustice of the media. I am focusing on the appropriate Christian response to injustice. Sinners sin, twiggy. That's what they do, they can't help it - they're slaves to it. When they sin against us, we forgive them as we have been forgiven. That should be our only response.

It's not a question of eternal forgiveness, it is a question of justice.

[/FONT]Jesus didn't tell us to "eternally forgive" people who sin against us. He told us to do it now.

I was using hyperboyle. If a nation is totally Christian (hypothetically) then how do you skirt around that? What if you were President?

I know you were using hyperbole and I think in doing so you are confusing the issue. Like I said above, the purpose of government and the job of individual Christians are two very different things.

A government is given the responsibility of protecting the people under its care. If the people in a society are attacked the government must act. To fail to do so would be a betrayal of it's fiduciary duties. This encompasses war as well as domestic violent crime.

But when, as in this case, an individual person is lied about (not a crime, but a civil insult against a person's reputation), the individual who was defamed is the only person with the right of redress because he/she was the only person harmed by it. That person then chooses whether to seek redress or to let it go. As Christians we are told to forgive.

To me social justice and spirituality are separate issues. That is why I can go to the prison and ministerto and forgive the pedophile while he / she remains safely in prison where they belong.

But if you were the victim of the pedophile, could you sue him for money damages and forgive at the same time? That is the question that is being asked in the OP.

God certainly did and does hold us accountable for our actions...and Jesus took our punishment for us. Jesus is not the abandonment of the law and of righteousness...He is the fulfillment of it.

What are you talking about?!!! If God were to hold us accountable for our actions, then we'd be going to hell. Jesus died and took our punishment so that we won't be held accountable. That punishment was the "accountable." He forgives us and does not make us responsible for those actions any more.

You argue that criminals should be "held accountable" and the way that is done is to put them behind bars "where they belong" or to execute them. That is the accountability you seek, is it not?

If a criminal were sentenced to death and the judge said "I will die in your place and pardon your crime"... Would it make sense for the judge to then say "but you still have to be held accountable"? No, it would not. The death sentence was the account.

[FONT=&quot]Well none of us are in that position so we cannot honestly say. My response would be "by the grace of God!" [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]My point is that it is not wrong to seek righteousness and justice.[/FONT]

And my point is that suing someone for insulting us is contrary to Jesus' teachings. It sounds "right" (to men) to say that we are seeking justice and righteousness. But if in our seeking to do so we are ignoring the instruction of our Lord, then we are wrong and we are not really seeking those things. How can we be seeking them when we turn from the source of justice and righteousness (the only Just and Righteous One) to go our own way - to do it "our way" instead of His Way?

[FONT=&quot]Certainly...but God does not condone sin by sweeping it under the rug. God demands total payment for sins commited.[/FONT]

God demanded total payment, God provided total payment. Payment has been made. Paid in full!

Their has to be an acknowledgement of the righteousness of God coupled with an acknowledgement of our own sinfulness and thus need for God in Jesus Christ before their can truly be forgiveness and grace.

What? You would have others work for the Grace that you have been freely given?

Sinners can't see Jesus. We have to show Him to them. We have to be an example of Jesus to them. If we forgive, if we show grace, freely - even though they haven't acknowledged that they did wrong or said sorry for it - they will see what Jesus offers them and be drawn to Him because of Love.

Jesus never said "forgive, but only after they've acknowledged they did something wrong." He simply said "forgive."

Forgiving people...not huge companies whose only conscience is money.

"Companies" are a legal fiction. There is no such "entity" that we can be angry and unforgiving to. Companies are made up of individuals. Individuals made the decision to defame the preacher. Those individuals need to be forgiven.

Not exactly a true paralllel here. It's a huge media giant. However to answer your question...if those insults end up destroying other people's lives by falsely representing other people because the media giant witch hunts were not brought to justice, by those who had the ability to do it...how is that loving your neighbor?

What? "Destroying" their lives? How is that possible? Doesn't God provide for us, protect us and watch over us? Can the weapons formed against us prosper?

And again, you seem to be completely ignoring the true facts of this case. I am discussing the appropriate response of an individual Christian when insulted.

If you want to talk about what the rest of us should do in response to the media lying... well... what I think is the right thing to do is to stop giving them so much credit and publicity. Stop watching the news and shows like 20/20. Encourage others to stop watching as well. If their ratings go down, they'll lose money and be out of business.

Getting up in arms about it only feeds the troll.

 

[heron]

News giants need to be held accountable

I agree with this, especially during this era where national news has become a popularity show for journalists. Where I see Price's flaw, is in using the court system to take on this battle.

The court system gives the appearance that he is out for more gain, and for bloody revenge.

A better use of energies is a thorough explanation to his public. A fairer compensation than a cash award, would be a scheduled interview on that station with the interviewer of his choice. A full half-hour show where Price could explain his intents without his words being twisted.

A lawsuit is simply an unrelated vehicle.

It is different when a man defends his own character, and when his community does it for him. If he had provided his church a breakdown of the church budget, and allowed elders to make a public statement in his defense, it would appear less desperate, greedy or vengeful. (These are admittedly strong words.)



Matthew 5 supports your (t1wGl) points on accountability ...

Do not think that I came to annul the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to annul, but to fulfill. Truly I say to you, Until the heaven and the earth pass away, in no way shall one iota or one point pass away from the Law until all comes to pass.

Therefore, whoever relaxes one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever does and teaches them , this one shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.

For I say to you, If your righteousness shall not exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of God, never!
​

And then supports Tamara's points on living with a set of values that is higher than the world's...

You have heard that it was said: "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth;" Ex. 21:24; Lev. 24:20; Deut. 19:21 http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+5:39&t=lit&sr=1&l=enbut I say to you, Do not resist the evil; but whoever strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other to him also. http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+5:40&t=lit&sr=1&l=enAnd to him desiring to sue you, and to take your tunic, allow him also to have the coat.

You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor" and hate your enemy; Lev. 19:18 http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+5:44&t=lit&sr=1&l=enbut I say to you, Love your enemies; bless those cursing you, do well to those hating you; and pray for those abusing and persecuting you, http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+5:45&t=lit&sr=1&l=enso that you may become sons of your Father in Heaven.

Because He causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and unjust. http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+5:46&t=lit&sr=1&l=enFor if you love those loving you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax-collectors do the same?

And if you only greet your brothers, what exceptional thing do you do? Do not the tax-collectors do so? http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+5:48&t=lit&sr=1&l=enTherefore, you be perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.

​

​

 

[imperfectchristian]

Comments interdispersed below...



[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]I'm saying that's not our battle. I'm saying that the fight you're fighting is a waste of energy because it won't accomplish anything.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Our battle is not against flesh and blood. Period.[/FONT]

So the Christian soldiers in Afganistan fighting terrorists are not accomplishing anything? I don't accept that.

[FONT=&quot]Holding people accountable will NEVER change the corruption and sinfulness of the world.[/FONT]

Agreed

[FONT=&quot]If we want it to change, we have to start by doing what Jesus told us to do. It contradicts everything that we think is the prudent or logical or common sense way. [/FONT]

We don't truly change anyone.


So much of what you say sounds exactly like what I have said in the past. It makes me face my own hypocrisy. I guess I've changed my opinions on things like this.

I no longer believe that it is possible to fight and forgive at the same time.

If you believe in principles then I think you can.


I think you are wrong to equate this situation (a believer suing someone for defamation) with murderers, pedophiles and tyrants being held accountable by the government for their CRIMES. Slander is not a crime, slander does not hurt anything but possibly a person's reputation. I refer again to my first posts on this subject. Believers should have the same attitude as Jesus - making ourselves NOTHING (of no reputation). The Bible teaches us that governments have been ordained by God to carry out punishment for crimes. That is their job, their purpose. So if you want to support the death penalty, I personally see no contradiction there (I personally believe that governments are entirely justified in choosing to carry out the death penalty but I do not choose to spend any of my time or energy advocating for it irl).

And governments are made up of people. People make these choices...what are you going to do if you are called to jury duty? Do you take off your Christan hat and put on your civic responsiblity hat...are you saying you cannot wear both hats at the same time?

BTW - Satan's name literally means "slander"

You are focusing on the supposed injustice of the media. I am focusing on the appropriate Christian response to injustice. Sinners sin, twiggy. That's what they do, they can't help it - they're slaves to it. When they sin against us, we forgive them as we have been forgiven. That should be our only response.

Well let me put it to you this way...someone slanders me...I'll let it go...however...someone slanders my wife or one of my children, then I am going to defend them because I love them. I don't know how Christian or unChristian that is, but that is who I am and what I believe is right.


[/FONT]Jesus didn't tell us to "eternally forgive" people who sin against us. He told us to do it now.


I know you were using hyperbole and I think in doing so you are confusing the issue. Like I said above, the purpose of government and the job of individual Christians are two very different things.

Yes but Government and Christianity are not mutually exclusive unless you have a government that has no citizens who are Christian.

A government is given the responsibility of protecting the people under its care. If the people in a society are attacked the government must act. To fail to do so would be a betrayal of it's fiduciary duties. This encompasses war as well as domestic violent crime.

But when, as in this case, an individual person is lied about (not a crime, but a civil insult against a person's reputation), the individual who was defamed is the only person with the right of redress because he/she was the only person harmed by it. That person then chooses whether to seek redress or to let it go. As Christians we are told to forgive.

Again...I'll not seek todefend myself by the grace of God against those who speak evil of me, but I will defend my loved ones and other innocent people.


But if you were the victim of the pedophile, could you sue him for money damages and forgive at the same time? That is the question that is being asked in the OP.

It depends on the motive for taking his money...if it means disarming his ability or punishing him to disuade him from continuing his deviant behaviour then yes it is justified. If it suing someone just to get money out of them or for vengence then no that is not the Christian thing to do.


What are you talking about?!!! If God were to hold us accountable for our actions, then we'd be going to hell. Jesus died and took our punishment so that we won't be held accountable. That punishment was the "accountable." He forgives us and does not make us responsible for those actions any more.

That's what I said.

You argue that criminals should be "held accountable" and the way that is done is to put them behind bars "where they belong" or to execute them. That is the accountability you seek, is it not?

If a criminal were sentenced to death and the judge said "I will die in your place and pardon your crime"... Would it make sense for the judge to then say "but you still have to be held accountable"? No, it would not. The death sentence was the account.

So you are saying criminals should not be prosecuted?


And my point is that suing someone for insulting us is contrary to Jesus' teachings. It sounds "right" (to men) to say that we are seeking justice and righteousness. But if in our seeking to do so we are ignoring the instruction of our Lord, then we are wrong and we are not really seeking those things. How can we be seeking them when we turn from the source of justice and righteousness (the only Just and Righteous One) to go our own way - to do it "our way" instead of His Way?

God judges the intent of the heart, not the action. To say that a Christian who seeks justice is turning from God is to pass judgement on their intent.


God demanded total payment, God provided total payment. Payment has been made. Paid in full!

For those who are willing to come to Him and recieve it.


What? You would have others work for the Grace that you have been freely given?

No...but I also will not cast my pearls before those who will only trample them under their feet. Show up in my house with a gun threatening me and my family and I will not say "I forgive you" ... I might say "I hope you know Jesus" as I am squeezing the trigger of the gun I have in my hand aimed center mass.


Sinners can't see Jesus. We have to show Him to them. We have to be an example of Jesus to them. If we forgive, if we show grace, freely - even though they haven't acknowledged that they did wrong or said sorry for it - they will see what Jesus offers them and be drawn to Him because of Love.

Absolutely...as as much as ies within me I will try and be at peace with others. Again though...I will defend myself and my family if I am forced to do so.

Jesus never said "forgive, but only after they've acknowledged they did something wrong." He simply said "forgive."


Luke 17:3-4

3 ..."If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. 4 If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."



"Companies" are a legal fiction. There is no such "entity" that we can be angry and unforgiving to. Companies are made up of individuals. Individuals made the decision to defame the preacher. Those individuals need to be forgiven.

What? "Destroying" their lives? How is that possible? Doesn't God provide for us, protect us and watch over us? Can the weapons formed against us prosper?

And again, you seem to be completely ignoring the true facts of this case. I am discussing the appropriate response of an individual Christian when insulted.

I'm not Fred Price's judge. If he wants to sue that is between him and God. If I was personally insulted I would not sue in his position (by the grace of God), but that does not make accountability a bad thing which is the point I am making.

If you want to talk about what the rest of us should do in response to the media lying... well... what I think is the right thing to do is to stop giving them so much credit and publicity. Stop watching the news and shows like 20/20. Encourage others to stop watching as well. If their ratings go down, they'll lose money and be out of business.

Getting up in arms about it only feeds the troll.

I'm not "up in arms" I am merely expressing my point of view.

 

[Tamara224]

We're obviously talking past each other, twiggy. It's just starting to irritate me now that you don't seem to be reading what I'm writing.

All I can do at this point is endlessly repeat myself.

See Heron's post above... Scripture speaks clearly on what our calling is.

I'm done with this thread.

 

[imperfectchristian]

We're obviously talking past each other, twiggy. It's just starting to irritate me now that you don't seem to be reading what I'm writing.

All I can do at this point is endlessly repeat myself.

See Heron's post above... Scripture speaks clearly on what our calling is.

I'm done with this thread.

Dear sis...please don't be irritated...we are just having a discussion. I responded to each one of your statements.

The summary of what I am saying is...

1. I am not Fred Price's Judge and so I will not judge him (it is between him and God)

2. I would not personally sue for slander (by the grace of God)

3. Seeking justice is not an unrighteous act, but indeed a righteous one. The soldiers fighting terrorists in Afganistan are carrying out justice.

4. Media giants should be held accountable

5. Requiring repentance before giving forgiveness is not unrighteous, however it could be considered the greater good to give the forgiveness anyway. For it to be of any use to anyone, one thing it has to be is sincere.

 

[heron]

News giants need to be held accountable

I agree with this, especially during this era where national news has become a popularity show for journalists. Where I see Price's flaw, is in using the court system to take on this battle.

The court system gives the appearance that he is out for more gain, and for bloody revenge.

A better use of energies is a thorough explanation to his public. A fairer compensation than a cash award, would be a scheduled interview on that station with the interviewer of his choice. A full half-hour show where Price could explain his intents without his words being twisted.

A lawsuit is simply an unrelated vehicle.

It is different when a man defends his own character, and when his community does it for him. If he had provided his church a breakdown of the church budget, and allowed elders to make a public statement in his defense, it would appear less desperate, greedy or vengeful. (These are admittedly strong words.)



Matthew 5 supports your (t1wGl) points on accountability ...

Do not think that I came to annul the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to annul, but to fulfill. Truly I say to you, Until the heaven and the earth pass away, in no way shall one iota or one point pass away from the Law until all comes to pass.

Therefore, whoever relaxes one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever does and teaches them , this one shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.

For I say to you, If your righteousness shall not exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of God, never!
​

And then supports Tamara's points on living with a set of values that is higher than the world's...

You have heard that it was said: "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth;" Ex. 21:24; Lev. 24:20; Deut. 19:21 http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+5:39&t=lit&sr=1&l=enbut I say to you, Do not resist the evil; but whoever strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other to him also. http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+5:40&t=lit&sr=1&l=enAnd to him desiring to sue you, and to take your tunic, allow him also to have the coat.

You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor" and hate your enemy; Lev. 19:18 http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+5:44&t=lit&sr=1&l=enbut I say to you, Love your enemies; bless those cursing you, do well to those hating you; and pray for those abusing and persecuting you, http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+5:45&t=lit&sr=1&l=enso that you may become sons of your Father in Heaven.

Because He causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and unjust. http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+5:46&t=lit&sr=1&l=enFor if you love those loving you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax-collectors do the same?

And if you only greet your brothers, what exceptional thing do you do? Do not the tax-collectors do so? http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+5:48&t=lit&sr=1&l=enTherefore, you be perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.

​

​