Kinzer's A BIBLICAL DEFENSE OF ORAL TORAH

[Hoshiyya]

I think it depends on what you are studying. If you are studying the Law, who knows the Law better than the Jews? But the Rabbis are unconcerned with any understanding of the New Testament. In the interpretation of the New Testament, we are dependent upon the Early Church Fathers.

Actually there are several other texts that are more valuable, including Josephus, Philo and the Talmud, to understanding the New Testament.
The "church fathers" were largely anti-semites from the Hellenic sphere of thought with little to no understanding or appreciation of Biblical (Mosaic) culture.

Josephus and Philo are particularly interesting in that they interacted with the Greco-Roman Society without rejecting their own culture. In their writings we find none of the virulent anti-semitic outbursts we find in the "church fathers".

 

[pat34lee]

To understand the Bible, the Jewish tradition is actually a necessary subject of study. Roman-Catholic and Roman-German (Protestant) traditions are ultimately irrelevant to the study of the ancient middle eastern Scriptures.

I would say that studying tradition may help, but not necessarily. History, including comparative history of those around Israel, is the subject we need to learn.

 

[Open Heart]

The "church fathers" were largely anti-semites from the Hellenic sphere of thought with little to no understanding or appreciation of Biblical (Mosaic) culture.

I wouldn't call them anti-semites, but certainly anti-judaism. I personally can't imagine interpreting the scriptures without input from the Apostolic Fathers, those taught by the Apostles themselves, or taught by those taught by the Apostles. They are simply just too close to the core. But to each their own. We are a diverse group in here.

 

[aniello]

I wouldn't call them anti-semites, but certainly anti-judaism. I personally can't imagine interpreting the scriptures without input from the Apostolic Fathers, those taught by the Apostles themselves, or taught by those taught by the Apostles. They are simply just too close to the core. But to each their own. We are a diverse group in here.

Open Heart,

Do you consider Ignatius of Antioch as one of those taught by the Apostles?

New Advent(RCC source) regards him as an Apostolic Father.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

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[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

This thread has had a clean up.

As a request, when someone is posting against your beliefs, please report and do not quote or respond to them.

reopening

 

[Hoshiyya]

MOD HAT

This thread has had a clean up.

As a request, when someone is posting against your beliefs, please report and do not quote or respond to them.

reopening

"please report and do not quote or respond to them. "

So their posts can just stand there forever, and so our swords go unsharpened ?

 

[Hoshiyya]

I wouldn't call them anti-semites, but certainly anti-judaism. I personally can't imagine interpreting the scriptures without input from the Apostolic Fathers, those taught by the Apostles themselves, or taught by those taught by the Apostles. They are simply just too close to the core. But to each their own. We are a diverse group in here.

I would say many of them were genuine anti-semites and without a doubt contributed to the historical anti-semitic foundation in Europe. It is very obvious from the writings of, say, Justin Martyr that the spirit of the Shlichim is not in him.

 

[FreeinChrist]

"please report and do not quote or respond to them. "

So their posts can just stand there forever, and so our swords go unsharpened ?

If they are violating the site rules by posting against your beliefs in this forum, the posts will be removed. If they feel like they are getting a response to their posts, they will violate the rules more. And if the posts are quoted and responded to, it can make the clean up harder. That is what I meant

 

[Hoshiyya]

If they are violating the site rules by posting against your beliefs in this forum, the posts will be removed. If they feel like they are getting a response to their posts, they will violate the rules more. And if the posts are quoted and responded to, it can make the clean up harder. That is what I meant

"If they are violating the site rules by posting against your beliefs in this forum, the posts will be removed."

To be honest I don't think any, or more than a few, of the many posts I have reported have been removed or even edited. So excuse me for being skeptical.

 

[Truthfrees]

Indeed. As you know I have sometimes wished Paul phrased things differently.

My own teacher really liked James, because, as he said, James doesn't pull any punches. He speaks directly.

But to be honest, if Paul was not in line with Torah, I hope the spirit would have testified of it to me sooner. Sometimes we mistake our own intuition/instinct for the Spirit, but I think Paul's writings have been allowed to become part of the Bible for a reason. I hope he will be in the millennial kingdom, as an immortal administrator/prince along with Moses our Teacher, and all the great ones. But I wonder what he will make of his legacy.

Yes, his phraseology has certainly been misunderstood by those who misunderstand Torah.

Paul's extreme use of hyperbole can be twisted into a schizophrenic mess.

Paul highly praises Torah in the same chapters where he teaches against using Torah for salvation.

Those with no Torah living experience twist Paul's words into "Torah is impossible to keep", "Torah is replaced by love YHWH and love your neighbor".

The immense blessing of "Torah mitzvot activate earthly rewards" is being missed by so many who speak against Torah mitzvot.

 

[Truthfrees]

"If they are violating the site rules by posting against your beliefs in this forum, the posts will be removed."

To be honest I don't think any, or more than a few, of the many posts I have reported have been removed or even edited. So excuse me for being skeptical.

I used to have that experience before I realized that our beliefs are very different from other faith groups, so now when I report a post I "prove" how it violates our beliefs.

IOW, the common Christian beliefs are what most violating posts here contain. Unless we specify what's wrong with a certain post (using quotes from our SOP and even possibly quotes from a post that clarifies what we believe), the staff might not understand what we're calling a violation of our SOP.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Paul highly praises Torah in the same chapters where he teaches against using Torah for salvation.​

Speaking of which, he appears to be against "seeking salvation". Do good for goodness' sake. Our obedience to our human parents is typically not based on the threat of hell or torment in the afterlife, and we still obey them.

The easiest explanation is that "works" is used in some technical sense. For example, I once read a writing by Martin Luther, and it made no sense until I realized that he used (or at least the translator used) the word "Necessity" to mean the same as Predestination. I once had a conversation with a Catholic priest, and he misunderstood me because I used the word "confirm" in a literal sense, and he thought I was using it in the technical sense of Catholic Confirmation (their equivalent of Bar/Bat Mitzva.)

I think it is possible that Paul, in his own way, is actually talking about either, or both of these ideas:

1 - Whatever good/spiritual deeds we perform are actually performed by God's spirit through us, and hence we literally cannot take credit.

2 - Look for what is good to do, without thought of reward, as said Yeshua. That's a gigantic philosophical proposition, but if Yeshua says it can be done, I think it must be practicable in one way or another.

 

[Hoshiyya]

"The immense blessing of "Torah mitzvot activate earthly rewards" is being missed by so many who speak against Torah mitzvot."

This is so true. There are more than enough physical rewards just for Shabbat alone, I'm surprised people aren't doing it for the rewards alone.

 

[Truthfrees]

Paul highly praises Torah in the same chapters where he teaches against using Torah for salvation.​

Speaking of which, he appears to be against "seeking salvation". Do good for goodness' sake. Our obedience to our human parents is not based on the threat of hell or torment in the afterlife, and we still obey them.

The easiest explanation is that "works" is used in some technical sense. For example, I once read a writing by Martin Luther, and it made no sense until I realized that he used (or at least the translator used) the word "Necessity" to mean the same as Predestination. I once had a conversation with a Catholic priest, and he misunderstood me because I used the word "confirm" in a literal sense, and he thought I was using it in the technical sense of Catholic Confirmation (their equivalent of Bar/Bat Mitzva.)

I think it is possible that Paul, in his own way, is actually talking about either, or both of these:

1 - Whatever good/spiritual deeds we perform are actually performed by God's spirit through us, and hence we literally cannot take credit.

2 - Look for what is good to do, without thought of reward, as said Yeshua. That's a gigantic philosophical proposition, but if Yeshua says it can be done, I think it must be practicable in one way or another.

Great insight.

Rewards for mitzvot are a spiritual law that happen whether we seek them or not, so YES, doing mitzvot without seeking rewards is a valid point.

For me, I KNOW rewards happen each time I do mitzvot, especially Shabbat mitzvot. They are so directly evident. I don't seek the reward, but I always speedily receive the reward. The joy of mitzvot is something only a Torah keeper will understand.

Likewise seeking and turning to YHWH IS salvation, so there's no need to SEEK salvation. We can remain focused on YHWH.

 

[Truthfrees]

"The immense blessing of "Torah mitzvot activate earthly rewards" is being missed by so many who speak against Torah mitzvot."

This is so true. There are more than enough physical rewards just for Shabbat alone, I'm surprised people aren't doing it for the rewards alone.

Once a person starts a Torah lifestyle, it's such a good life, I don't want to stop. It's clearly not a burden. It's a blessing.

 

[Hoshiyya]

If the proponents of the "war on poverty" wish to succeed, maybe they should consider encouraging Shabbat-observance?

It's really quite magical. Rest one day, and you will reap rewards as if you had worked many, many days. It's a principle I call "the opposite happens". Usually, not sowing means you won't reap. But with Shabbat, the opposite happens, and you reap more than if you had worked.

 

[Open Heart]

I would say many of them were genuine anti-semites

Many of them? Some of them. Chrysostom for example was antisemitic. But most of them were not. It is unfair for you to paint the group of them as anti-semitic for the actions of a few.

 

[visionary]

If the proponents of the "war on poverty" wish to succeed, maybe they should consider encouraging Shabbat-observance?

It's really quite magical. Rest one day, and you will reap rewards as if you had worked many, many days. It's a principle I call "the opposite happens". Usually, not sowing means you won't reap. But with Shabbat, the opposite happens, and you reap more than if you had worked.

It is ... the "be still and know I am the Lord" principle at work there.

 

[visionary]

Bottom line is the only thing that God wrote can never be claimed as Oral.

Deut 4:13 He announced to you his covenant which he commanded you to observe, the Ten Words, and he wrote them down on two tablets of stone.

Anything Oral has to take "second seat" to this fact.