Jesus says no one can pluck/snatch us out of His & The Father's hand. Does that include yourself?

[sdowney717]

The sheep was found...RIGHT?

Romans 8 says nothing/no one can separate us from the love of Christ!
Do we believe this or contest it? No one clearly includes even yourself.

Exactly true, no one predestined is permanently lost forever, Jesus goes after sheep that wander.
God says He is not willing that any of the sheep perish.
And the thing is Jesus says the sheep hear His voice, I know them and they follow me, so, when He come a calling they are found. They will follow Christ. Infact just like the prodigal son did going back to the Father.
They are His sheep before they hear His voice.

Peter says this (MEV)
25 For you were as sheep going astray, but now have been returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

1 Peter 2:25Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
25 For you were going astray like [so many] sheep, but now you have come back to the Shepherd and Guardian (the Bishop) of your souls.

See Christ is that great Shepherd of the sheep, so then Christ is the guardian of their souls.
Christ is only the guardian of the sheep and all the sheep are going to be saved even if they are lost.
It is the will of God that they all come to Christ and God makes all things work to their good.
All God foreknew He caused to be conformed to Christ, so then saved.

For those God did not foreknow, He does nothing for them in the way of salvation, He does not work ALL THINGS for their good.
Actually they are without possibility of salvation since they are all blinded by their minds by Satan, John 8 also says these things, and only Christ can open the eyes of the blind. So then they perish.

PROOF that they are without hope and without God is here in Ephesians 2
Brought Near by His Blood
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:30
But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption

Only if you abide in Christ and Christ abides in you are you saved, otherwise you are without hope of salvation.
Only if you are in Christ do you have hope and God in the world.
Otherwise you are an enemy of God and Christ and are following after Satan.
If you do not gather with Christ then you scatter the sheep as a wolf.

Of Him you are in Christ, it is because Christ has chosen you to be saved, this is not your doing.
If it was not of Him, then you would not be in Christ and would be going to hell.

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

 

[sdowney717]

Oh, boy, another attempt to extend a promise of protection from outside one's self to include protection from one's self.

John 3
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

It is sort of a static condition being shown here.
Believers are saved, but unbelievers are already condemned because they have not believed.
It is as good as hell already for unbelievers for they are without hope of Christ and God in the world since they have no salvation.

Believers believe and unbelievers do not believe and the reason believers believe is because they have received that gift of faith from heaven.
27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven.

 

[DingDing]

...
Believers believe and unbelievers do not believe ...

If the definition of "believer" is one who is actively following Christ and His teachings, what happens to those who stop following? Why do we have scriptures which warn against falling away?

I'm not sure how long you have been in church, but at least in my experience, you see people on a somewhat regular basis who once followed the LORD, but now no longer do so - and some have gone deep into life-styles of sin and immorality. These kinds of people are specifically mentioned in certain places as not being saved. Apostasy is not just hypothetical - it really happens.

 

[SeventyOne]

If the definition of "believer" is one who is actively following Christ and His teachings, what happens to those who stop following?

Where did you get that definition of a believer?

Paul tells us in Romans 4, "Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness".

 

[DingDing]

If the definition of "believer" is one who is actively following Christ and His teachings, what happens to those who stop following? Why do we have scriptures which warn against falling away?

...

Where did you get that definition of a believer?

Paul tells us in Romans 4, "Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness".

So are you saying that a "believer" does not have to follow Christ or His teachings? So are you saying that how a person lives is irrelevant to the issue of salvation? And are you really going to boil all that scripture has to say about salvation to your interpretation of a single verse? What if I were to tell you that there are many other scriptures that need to be considered to arrive at the definition of "believer"? What about Romans 2:5-10; or Romans 6:16-18; or Romans 8:12-17; or Romans 11:19-23? Are there not many more passages I could quote? Should we not consider the whole counsel of God on this matter, or should we leave it to just a single interpretation of a single verse?

So, given the whole counsel of God, what definition would you give for a "believer"? And how does mine fall short?

 

[sdowney717]

If the definition of "believer" is one who is actively following Christ and His teachings, what happens to those who stop following? Why do we have scriptures which warn against falling away?

I'm not sure how long you have been in church, but at least in my experience, you see people on a somewhat regular basis who once followed the LORD, but now no longer do so - and some have gone deep into life-styles of sin and immorality. These kinds of people are specifically mentioned in certain places as not being saved. Apostasy is not just hypothetical - it really happens.

Read John 6 about the many disciples who departed from Christ. They were with Him for a while but left off following Him, so they were not saved, as you also noticed in church about apostates.

Jesus says they departed because they were not granted by God to be saved.
Jesus also says they did not believe, infact they were having a hard time believing what Christ said, and got offended.
Jesus also said,
Matthew 11:6New King James Version (NKJV)
6 And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me.”

So then blessed of God are they who are not offended by Christ and believe in Christ's words.

Many Disciples Turn Away
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

 

[DingDing]

Read John 6 about the many disciples who departed from Christ. They were with Him for a while but left off following Him, so they were not saved, ...

If this is your understanding, then how do you (or anyone for that matter) know if they are truly saved? Given your position, could it be that you or I will be another of these who eventually walk away? What if you are not one of the elect, but rather one chosen by God, from before the world began, to be nothing more than a temporary follower? I find no real comfort in your position. You seem to be saying that no one can really know if they are saved (of the elect) until they have proven faithful until the end. It seems the best your position can offer is a "maybe I am saved". Do you agree?

 

[FreeGrace2]

So where in John 10 does it say a shee cannot freely walk out of the gate?

Let's examine what Jesus said about sheep and going in and out of the gate.

7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
9 “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

Those who "enter through Jesus" will be saved. And they will go IN and OUT and find pasture.

 

[sdowney717]

If this is your understanding, then how do you (or anyone for that matter) know if they are truly saved? Given your position, could it be that you or I will be another of these who eventually walk away? What if you are not one of the elect, but rather one chosen by God, from before the world began, to be nothing more than a temporary follower? I find no real comfort in your position. You seem to be saying that no one can really know if they are saved (of the elect) until they have proven faithful until the end. It seems the best your position can offer is a "maybe I am saved". Do you agree?

It is not 'my position' this is Christ's words you have issue with.
Do you not know on the inside that you are saved?
Do you not hear His voice?
The sheep Christ says, 'Hear my voice'

And what about John 7

The Promise of the Holy Spirit
37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Yes, I certainly do know Him and hear His voice and He knows me as well.

And if God has chosen you to be saved, then you will know that to be true since you will have been born of God.

 

[sdowney717]

John 5:24-26New King James Version (NKJV)
Life and Judgment Are Through the Son
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,

Hearing God is only for those who are of God, otherwise your will remain dead in your spirit and soul.

John 8:47
He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

His words are Spirit and they are life.

John 6:63
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

The dead can also read the scriptures and think they have eternal life, but they do not if they do not believe what Christ has said.

John 5:38-40New King James Version (NKJV)
38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
'
The Father's word must be abiding in you, He must be alive in you on the inside or you have no life at all.

 

[sdowney717]

1 John 3:23-24New King James Version (NKJV)
23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

The Spirit of Truth and the Spirit of Error
24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.


Romans 8
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

 

[EmSw]

Sure, here's a link to assist you.

I want to hear it from your mouth. We're talking about your belief, not someone else's.

 

[SeventyOne]

I want to hear it from your mouth. We're talking about your belief, not someone else's.

I believe what's in that link. That's why I shared it. It'll have to be good enough, because I'm not sitting here and redundantly typing it all out.

 

[EmSw]

Genesis 5:3 "When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. "

So fathered means to create? Here is Strong's definition of fathered or begat -

to bear, bring forth, beget, gender, travail

1. (Qal)
   
   1. to bear, bring forth
      
      1. of child birth
         
         
      2. of distress (simile)
         
         
      3. of wicked (behaviour)
         
   2. to beget
      
2. (Niphal) to be born
   
   
3. (Piel)
   
   1. to cause or help to bring forth
      
      
   2. to assist or tend as a midwife
      
      
   3. midwife (participle)
      
4. (Pual) to be born
   
   
5. (Hiphil)
   
   1. to beget (a child)
      
      
   2. to bear (fig. - of wicked bringing forth iniquity)
      
6. (Hophal) day of birth, birthday (infinitive)
   
   
7. (Hithpael) to declare one's birth (pedigree)
   

No where does it indicate create. Besides, God didn't father the heavens and earth. Everything He created came from Him, including all people. HE IS THE ONLY CREATOR OF LIFE!

But I will say...nice try.

 

[EmSw]

Exactly true, no one predestined is permanently lost forever, Jesus goes after sheep that wander.
God says He is not willing that any of the sheep perish.
And the thing is Jesus says the sheep hear His voice, I know them and they follow me, so, when He come a calling they are found. They will follow Christ. Infact just like the prodigal son did going back to the Father.
They are His sheep before they hear His voice.

Peter says this (MEV)
25 For you were as sheep going astray, but now have been returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

1 Peter 2:25Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
25 For you were going astray like [so many] sheep, but now you have come back to the Shepherd and Guardian (the Bishop) of your souls.

See Christ is that great Shepherd of the sheep, so then Christ is the guardian of their souls.
Christ is only the guardian of the sheep and all the sheep are going to be saved even if they are lost.
It is the will of God that they all come to Christ and God makes all things work to their good.
All God foreknew He caused to be conformed to Christ, so then saved.

For those God did not foreknow, He does nothing for them in the way of salvation, He does not work ALL THINGS for their good.
Actually they are without possibility of salvation since they are all blinded by their minds by Satan, John 8 also says these things, and only Christ can open the eyes of the blind. So then they perish.

PROOF that they are without hope and without God is here in Ephesians 2
Brought Near by His Blood
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:30
But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption

Only if you abide in Christ and Christ abides in you are you saved, otherwise you are without hope of salvation.
Only if you are in Christ do you have hope and God in the world.
Otherwise you are an enemy of God and Christ and are following after Satan.
If you do not gather with Christ then you scatter the sheep as a wolf.

Of Him you are in Christ, it is because Christ has chosen you to be saved, this is not your doing.
If it was not of Him, then you would not be in Christ and would be going to hell.

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

How funny. Nothing separates man from the love of God, except predestination.

 

[EmSw]

John 3
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

It is sort of a static condition being shown here.
Believers are saved, but unbelievers are already condemned because they have not believed.
It is as good as hell already for unbelievers for they are without hope of Christ and God in the world since they have no salvation.

Believers believe and unbelievers do not believe and the reason believers believe is because they have received that gift of faith from heaven.
27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven.

But many don't believe Jesus, Who is the Word Itself.

Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?

Is Ezekiel the Word of God? If one can't believe this verse, how can they believe anything else God said?

 

[SeventyOne]

So fathered means to create? Here is Strong's definition of fathered or begat -

to bear, bring forth, beget, gender, travail

1. (Qal)
   1. to bear, bring forth
      1. of child birth
         
         
      2. of distress (simile)
         
         
      3. of wicked (behaviour)
   2. to beget
2. (Niphal) to be born
   
   
3. (Piel)
   1. to cause or help to bring forth
      
      
   2. to assist or tend as a midwife
      
      
   3. midwife (participle)
4. (Pual) to be born
   
   
5. (Hiphil)
   1. to beget (a child)
      
      
   2. to bear (fig. - of wicked bringing forth iniquity)
6. (Hophal) day of birth, birthday (infinitive)
   
   
7. (Hithpael) to declare one's birth (pedigree)

No where does it indicate create. Besides, God didn't father the heavens and earth. Everything He created came from Him, including all people. HE IS THE ONLY CREATOR OF LIFE!

But I will say...nice try.

I really don't know what the final point is you're trying to get to with all this.

I never said fathered means to create. My initial post on this said what I've said all along, man was created in the image of God, but since then, man has been born in the likeness of fallen man, a verse which I pointed out to you.

In summation, God created man (Adam) in His likeness and image. Man fell. Man fathered all others in his (fallen) likeness and image. It seems your point might be that He directly creates everything that is born, which would imply he's directly and perpetually creating man and creation in a fallen state, which is not His image or likeness. I don't see how you can have it both ways.

 

[EmSw]

Where did you get that definition of a believer?

Paul tells us in Romans 4, "Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness".

Do you believe and practice what Ezekiel 18:31 says?

 

[SeventyOne]

Do you believe and practice what Ezekiel 18:31 says?

Of course I believe it, but am I the House of Israel? I believe and practice what Paul wrote in Romans 4. I believe in the One who justifies the ungodly.

 

[EmSw]

I really don't know what the final point is you're trying to get to with all this.

I never said fathered means to create. My initial post on this said what I've said all along, man was created in the image of God, but since then, man has been born in the likeness of fallen man, a verse which I pointed out to you.

In summation, God created man (Adam) in His likeness and image. Man fell. Man fathered all others in his (fallen) likeness and image. It seems your point might be that He directly creates everything that is born, which would imply he's directly and perpetually creating man and creation in a fallen state, which is not His image or likeness. I don't see how you can have it both ways.

I said God created every man. You disagreed; you said man created man. Who can create life but God? Can man create life?

I never said man was born in a fallen state; that's not my belief. That a Reformed belief. The Reformed have God creating man in a fallen state. Again, nice try.