Jesus says no one can pluck/snatch us out of His & The Father's hand. Does that include yourself?

[SeventyOne]

So whose image do you reflect?

Genesis 9:6
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

1 Corinthians 11:7
For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God:

You are trying to be manipulative and drag me off on a tangent here.

The bottom line is that a believer cannot take themselves out of the Fathers hand because they don't have the authority to do so. They have been purchased, and there is no provision given where one can buy themselves.

Besides, even if there were such a provision, the price paid was the death and resurrection of the Son of God. How exactly do you think you could ever top that price?

 

[EmSw]

Yup, I agreed He created man, no doubt about it. But He doesn't directly create everything there is. People come from other people, they aren't created directly and deposited into a crib. Rabbits spawn rabbits. Horses spawn horses.

Now, surely you've heard of something giving birth? If not, ask your mother if you came out of her or if you suddenly materialized in her lap one day.

And you think this is not God creating people? I can guarantee, without God's creating power, woman couldn't create a thing. The first cause is the premier and utmost in creation. Women having children is God's creation power in perpetuity. And I can guarantee, all mankind is created in His image and likeness.

 

[SeventyOne]

And you think this is not God creating people? I can guarantee, without God's creating power, woman couldn't create a thing. The first cause is the premier and utmost in creation. Women having children is God's creation power in perpetuity. And I can guarantee, all mankind is created in His image and likeness.

Perpetually creating people, animals, plants, bacteria, etc? No, I don't think that at all. He gave us a reproductive mechanisms to handle that.

 

[EmSw]

You are trying to be manipulative and drag me off on a tangent here.

The bottom line is that a believer cannot take themselves out of the Fathers hand because they don't have the authority to do so. They have been purchased, and there is no provision given where one can buy themselves.

Besides, even if there were such a provision, the price paid was the death and resurrection of the Son of God. How exactly do you think you could ever top that price?

Where do you get they don't have authority to leave the Father's hand?

John 6
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

Let me ask you this - what was the price Jesus paid? Please be specific. Was the price for our sins a death for only three days? Do unbelievers only have to die for three days and then be resurrected afterwards and have the price paid?

 

[EmSw]

Perpetually creating people, animals, plants, bacteria, etc? No, I don't think that at all. He gave us a reproductive mechanisms to handle that.

Okay, let's settle this. Show me in the Bible where man is created in the image and likeness of another man or woman.

 

[SeventyOne]

Answer the question, what is the price for man's sins? Then tell me how Jesus paid this price.

Sure, here's a link to assist you.

 

[sdowney717]

I am perfectly fine with the fact fellow believers may not agree with where I stand on this issue. You asked for evidence and I supplied it to you.

I never once called your salvation into question nor your walk with Jesus yet you have called not only mine but others. This is saddening because as believers, we allow petty differences get between us and what does that show the world? What type of example are we showing those who have been hurt by the church? These are rhetorical questions mind you so please don't answer them. I'm not trying to throw out a strawman.

When it comes down to it, and given what this world is coming to, if I am told in order to live I must renounce Jesus, I would rather give up my life for the one who saved my soul. My life is nothing to me, it is not my own because He paid the price for me. Jesus said, "If you love Me, you will keep my commands." (John 14). He also said, “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." (Matthew 24:9-14NKJV)

I know where I stand in my walk. Again, I leave you with this warning. Do not let your love for Jesus grow cold. He has called us to endure. If we don't we forfeit our relationship with Him and have walked away thus throwing away His gift of Salvation.

<Staff edit> we do not walk away from Christ if He has saved us.

Here is then another verse of Christ that shows you do not believe what He says.
Only the sheep of Christ believe what Christ says.

John 10:26-28New King James Version (NKJV)
26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

Notice specifically v27, the sheep follow Christ, so they do not walk away from Christ.
I am actually challenging you to believe in Christ absent your own ideology.

Here is another challenge for you, proving eternal life is eternal life not temporary life.
Hebrews 7:25
Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

<Staff Edit> as we do not walk away from Christ if He has saved us.

Here is then another verse of Christ that shows you do not believe what He says.
Only the sheep of Christ believe what Christ says.

John 10:26-28New King James Version (NKJV)
26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

Notice specifically v27, the sheep follow Christ, so they do not walk away from Christ.
I am actually challenging you to believe in Christ absent your own ideology.

Here is another challenge for you, proving eternal life is eternal life not temporary life.
Hebrews 7:25
Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

You cling onto John 10 as if it is absolute proof yet show me where it says a sheep cannot freely wonder away or become lost? Ever hear about the parable of the lost sheep? How did the sheep become lost in the first place. Ever hear about the prodigal son? Why was he able to leave his father in the first place?

 

[sdowney717]

You cling onto John 10 as if it is absolute proof yet show me where it says a sheep cannot freely wonder away or become lost? Ever hear about the parable of the lost sheep? How did the sheep become lost in the first place. Ever hear about the prodigal son? Why was he able to leave his father in the first place?

However the timeline of the various verses in those parable situations you can not know when they have been saved by their faith and belief.

You do realize Christ has sheep that belong to Him before they hear His voice? So they exist as His sheep before they believe in Him, they are the 'other sheep' He has.

They were lost because they were born into this world of sin, but before they were born Christ knew them as His own.

John 10:16
And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

See these other sheep HE HAS, have not yet heard Christ speaking life to them.

 

[sdowney717]

And so clearly does John the apostle write about those who depart in unbelief, that they are antichrists, so then they never knew Christ, and He never knew them, which is why they depart the faith, meaning they were church members but they departed.

If He does not know you, then you will and can never know Him.
Read again 1 John2.

Jesus also teaches WHY MANY of His disciples depart from Him, because God has not granted to them life.
The situation presented in John 6 is so clearly written, only a deceived person would disagree with Christ.

Many Disciples Turn Away
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

 

[Lulav]

​

 

[Lulav]

MOD HAT ON
I am reopening this thread in the hopes that
civil discussion will ensue.
Remember if You

So specifically no one is to accuse another
of not being saved, or not being a Christian.
You may debate the OP but
DO NOT direct your posts at any
member, this is considered Flaming and will be actioned.
MOD HAT OFF
​

 

[SeventyOne]

Okay, let's settle this. Show me in the Bible where man is created in the image and likeness of another man or woman.

Genesis 5:3 "When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. "

 

[bottomofsandal]

I could have used any object one might own, such as a couch, a chair, a can of corn, or how about a fish. My fish can can exercise their freewill and go anywhere within their tank they wish, but they can't ever leave it, no matter how much they'd ever desire to do so. I own them. I make the decision if they stay or if they go, not them.

True, true...its fun to guess how the freewillers will be contrary when there is no opposite position.
Freewill is unbridled, unconstrained, and choice-happy and will choose a pov that is man-centric.
There is no alternate meaning for John 10, but a freewiller's will must commandeer a position and inject man.

 

[DingDing]

True, true...its fun to guess how the freewillers will be contrary when there is no opposite position.
Freewill is unbridled, unconstrained, and choice-happy and will choose a pov that is man-centric.
There is no alternate meaning for John 10, but a freewiller's will must commandeer a position and inject man.

Actually, there is an alternative to the one you have been touting, but you would not receive it.

 

[bottomofsandal]

So you are saying that John, Peter, and Paul are lying when they say "it is God's will that none should parish"?

No one is calling anyone a liar.
But we have some here who are shaking an angry fist at God for not saving all men.

The results of God's desire speak as to God's will. What is the outcome?
God, for whatever reason, did not cause (removed desire & will) all men to be saved.
Do we believe God can do whatever He wants whether we agree with His actions or not?

It's like some people are questioning God's holiness, righteousness, and motive for only saving some men,
then turn around and tell the ones who are saved that this salvation can be lost or jettisoned at any time?



...seems contradictory and confusing
...who is the accuser of the brethren and most likely to want man to believe salvation can be lost

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

However the timeline of the various verses in those parable situations you can not know when they have been saved by their faith and belief.

You do realize Christ has sheep that belong to Him before they hear His voice? So they exist as His sheep before they believe in Him, they are the 'other sheep' He has.

They were lost because they were born into this world of sin, but before they were born Christ knew them as His own.

John 10:16
And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

See these other sheep HE HAS, have not yet heard Christ speaking life to them.

Did you even read the parable?

“Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?
Luke 15:4 NIV

The sheep was part of the flock and became lost!

 

[ManyWeaknesses]

I see how it is; My comments were deleted for "goading/flaming" for calling an opinion outside of Orthodoxy "heretical" or "hetrodox".

Well, the opinion that you can't walk away from Salvation is NOT taught by orthodox christianity(Eastern Orthodox Church, Roman Catholic Church, Catholicism in general.

Are you going to delete my post too cause I say "saved by faith alone" is outside of Orthodoxy (because it is). It's a protestant belief, not a catholic one.

 

[bottomofsandal]

Did you even read the parable?

“Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?
Luke 15:4 NIV

The sheep was part of the flock and became lost!

The sheep was found...RIGHT?

Romans 8 says nothing/no one can separate us from the love of Christ!
Do we believe this or contest it? No one clearly includes even yourself.

 

[DingDing]

The sheep was found...RIGHT?

Romans 8 says nothing/no one can separate us from the love of Christ!
Do we believe this or contest it? No one clearly includes even yourself.

Oh, boy, another attempt to extend a promise of protection from outside one's self to include protection from one's self.