it is ok to lie when...

[Svt4Him]

If satan is the father of all lies, then I'd say yes, it's a sin.

 

[THE OLD BUM]

If satan is the father of all lies, then I'd say yes, it's a sin.

many lied to the german guards that were hiding Jewish people.and in America the same with those who helped slaves to escape.

 

[nephilimiyr]

many lied to the german guards that were hiding Jewish people.and in America the same with those who helped slaves to escape.

And? That doesn't make lieing not a sin. Corrie Ten Boom, one of those person's you are talking about, would go to God and ask for forgiveness for telling those type of lies.

You see, you think you're argueing that some lies are sin while some are not, and the determining factor is whether good or bad was the result. My perspective is, you're saying that God is going to impute that sin on your account so in order to get around that you chose which lie resulted in bad and which resulted in good. The lie where the result was bad, you are essencially saying God is going to hold it against you. This way you can view all lies that result in good as not being a sin.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Is lying actually a sin?

I'm asking this because Rahab lied to the people of Jericho when they came looking for the 12 spies, and said they had already left, when all along she had them hidden on her roof. God rewarded her by saving her, and her house, and moreover, she is named in Hebrews 11. The story is in Joshua 2.

Also, the midwives in Eygpt, let baby boys live, and when asked by Pharoah, lied and said the babies were being born before they arrived, when they actually let them live (Exodus 1). Of them, the bible says that God was kind to them.

There are other cases like this.

My point is, does the bible actually say that it is a sin to lie? Not saying that it's not, just trying to reconcile what lying is, with what the bible says happened.

OB, if this post derails you OP, let me know ASAP and I'll start a new thread about it.

Well hello again NaLuvena

Rahab was saved because of her faith, not because of her lies, or even because of her being a prostitute.

Hebrews 11:31, By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

If Satan is the father of lies then I believe all lies are sin.

Proverbs 19:5, A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who pours out lies will not go free.

 

[nephilimiyr]

God is much holier than we could ever imagine. What we think is good, is detestable to God.

 

[Cassidy]

There's a difference between lying and using discretion.

 

[pinetree]

Well hello again NaLuvena

Rahab was saved because of her faith, not because of her lies, or even because of her being a prostitute.

Hebrews 11:31, By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

If Satan is the father of lies then I believe all lies are sin.

Proverbs 19:5, A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who pours out lies will not go free.

Hi neph,fancy meeting you here!
So..would you have lied to the nazis if you were hiding a Jewish person?

 

[nephilimiyr]

Hi neph,fancy meeting you here!
So..would you have lied to the nazis if you were hiding a Jewish person?

If all else failed, yes. I would've done exactly what Corrie Ten Boom did.

I sin in other ways too pinetree, so do you, and so does everybody.

You're not going to catch me being hypocritical pinetree, I fully admitt to committing sins.

 

[pinetree]

If all else failed, yes. I would've done exactly what Corrie Ten Boom did.

I sin in other ways too pinetree, so do you, and so does everybody.

You're not going to catch me being hypocritical pinetree, I fully admitt to committing sins.

I am sorry...

Lol,I know your quick and smart,and I cant resist messing with ya!

Those whom pinetree loves,he needles!

 

[nephilimiyr]

I am sorry...

Lol,I know your quick and smart,and I cant resist messing with ya!

Those whom pinetree loves,he needles!

I've met alot of sorry individuals in my lifetime and "sorry" is one thing you are not.

I hope my galaxy and your galaxy will be neighbors.

 

[NaLuvena]

Well hello again NaLuvena

Hi neph, good to see you in here. Hope God's been good to you.

Rahab was saved because of her faith, not because of her lies, or even because of her being a prostitute.

Hebrews 11:31, By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

That exactly my point. It seems that sometimes, lying is the right thing to do.

We all know that lying is wrong, but if I was in the situation Pinetree needled you with, I'd lie too, to save the Jews from the gas chamber.

If Satan is the father of lies then I believe all lies are sin.

Proverbs 19:5, A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who pours out lies will not go free.

What if God approves of you lying?:o

 

[NaLuvena]

Not at all,in fact you are a most interesting fellow!

Thanks.

I've always thought that if God is going to shake what I'm building one day, and test it by fire, I better shake 'n' burn as much as I can, so that my house doesn't go up in flames when God tests it.

I've always believed that the truth will stand up for itself, and when we want to know what that is, we should "burn" it and see what remains.

 

[nephilimiyr]

What if God approves of you lying?:o

Even though God approves of me, He doesn't approve of the sins I committ.

 

[NaLuvena]

Even though God approves of me, He doesn't approve of the sins I committ.

How did I know that you'd bite?

What if God gave his permission for someone to go and lie to achieve something? Does it make the lie said in that case sin? I don't think so, just the same as God telling David to kill was not murder.

 

[nephilimiyr]

How did I know that you'd bite?

What if God gave his permission for someone to go and lie to achieve something? Does it make the lie said in that case sin? I don't think so, just the same as God telling David to kill was not murder.

Na, come on NaLuvena, give a good scriptural account of when God gave someone the permission to lie so that we can discuss reality, not hypotheticals.

God never told anyone to murder, He did command his people to go to battle. And all of this within the confines of the Old Testiment, the time before grace.

 

[NaLuvena]

Na, come on NaLuvena, give a good scriptural account of when God gave someone the permission to lie so that we can discuss reality, not hypotheticals.

God never told anyone to murder, He did command his people to go to battle. And all of this within the confines of the Old Testiment, the time before grace.

Neph my friend, did you think I would open this door to you without having something ready?

This, I read when I was still 11, and it has always bothered me. I cannot reconcile it with the God I know of. Maybe my understanding of God needs revising....

1 Kings 22

1 For three years there was no war between Aram and Israel. 2 But in the third year Jehoshaphat king of Judah went down to see the king of Israel. 3 The king of Israel had said to his officials, "Don't you know that Ramoth Gilead belongs to us and yet we are doing nothing to retake it from the king of Aram?" 4 So he asked Jehoshaphat, "Will you go with me to fight against Ramoth Gilead?"
Jehoshaphat replied to the king of Israel, "I am as you are, my people as your people, my horses as your horses." 5 But Jehoshaphat also said to the king of Israel, "First seek the counsel of the LORD."
6 So the king of Israel brought together the prophets—about four hundred men—and asked them, "Shall I go to war against Ramoth Gilead, or shall I refrain?"
"Go," they answered, "for the Lord will give it into the king's hand."
7 But Jehoshaphat asked, "Is there not a prophet of the LORD here whom we can inquire of?"
8 The king of Israel answered Jehoshaphat, "There is still one man through whom we can inquire of the LORD, but I hate him because he never prophesies anything good about me, but always bad. He is Micaiah son of Imlah."
"The king should not say that," Jehoshaphat replied.
9 So the king of Israel called one of his officials and said, "Bring Micaiah son of Imlah at once."
10 Dressed in their royal robes, the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat king of Judah were sitting on their thrones at the threshing floor by the entrance of the gate of Samaria, with all the prophets prophesying before them. 11 Now Zedekiah son of Kenaanah had made iron horns and he declared, "This is what the LORD says: 'With these you will gore the Arameans until they are destroyed.' "
12 All the other prophets were prophesying the same thing. "Attack Ramoth Gilead and be victorious," they said, "for the LORD will give it into the king's hand."
13 The messenger who had gone to summon Micaiah said to him, "Look, as one man the other prophets are predicting success for the king. Let your word agree with theirs, and speak favorably."
14 But Micaiah said, "As surely as the LORD lives, I can tell him only what the LORD tells me."
15 When he arrived, the king asked him, "Micaiah, shall we go to war against Ramoth Gilead, or shall I refrain?"
"Attack and be victorious," he answered, "for the LORD will give it into the king's hand."
16 The king said to him, "How many times must I make you swear to tell me nothing but the truth in the name of the LORD ?"
17 Then Micaiah answered, "I saw all Israel scattered on the hills like sheep without a shepherd, and the LORD said, 'These people have no master. Let each one go home in peace.' "
18 The king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, "Didn't I tell you that he never prophesies anything good about me, but only bad?"
19 Micaiah continued, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD : I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?'
"One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'
22 " 'By what means?' the LORD asked.
" 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.
" 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'
23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."
24 Then Zedekiah son of Kenaanah went up and slapped Micaiah in the face. "Which way did the spirit from the LORD go when he went from me to speak to you?" he asked.
25 Micaiah replied, "You will find out on the day you go to hide in an inner room."
26 The king of Israel then ordered, "Take Micaiah and send him back to Amon the ruler of the city and to Joash the king's son 27 and say, 'This is what the king says: Put this fellow in prison and give him nothing but bread and water until I return safely.' "
28 Micaiah declared, "If you ever return safely, the LORD has not spoken through me." Then he added, "Mark my words, all you people!"


You can find the same thing in 1 Chronicles 18. Now how does that gel with our ideal of a God who does not lie, and does not approve of lying? While God did not lie here, He definitely gave His approval for a lie to be told. The purpose of the lie was to bring about the death of Ahab,

The story goes on, with the king of Israel dying as prophesied by Micaiah, justifying the truth of his prophecy. Oh, and Zedekiah does hide in an inner room.

BTW, God does tell people to kill. The kingdom of Israel was taken away from Saul, because he wouldn't kill the Amalekite King that God said he had to.

If you take the time to read the Bible from cover to cover, you will find some weird stuff in it.

 

[Cassidy]

So..would you have lied to the nazis if you were hiding a Jewish person?

This is a very good point...do you tell the truth and risk them being 'killed' which means you yourself have 'killed' which is a sin...or....do you lie...which is a sin?

Lesser of two evils?
God has mercy?
God understands?
Lying as either 'self defence' or for the protection of others?

 

[nephilimiyr]

Neph my friend, did you think I would open this door to you without having something ready?

This, I read when I was still 11, and it has always bothered me. I cannot reconcile it with the God I know of. Maybe my understanding of God needs revising....

1 Kings 22

1 For three years there was no war between Aram and Israel. 2 But in the third year Jehoshaphat king of Judah went down to see the king of Israel. 3 The king of Israel had said to his officials, "Don't you know that Ramoth Gilead belongs to us and yet we are doing nothing to retake it from the king of Aram?" 4 So he asked Jehoshaphat, "Will you go with me to fight against Ramoth Gilead?"
Jehoshaphat replied to the king of Israel, "I am as you are, my people as your people, my horses as your horses." 5 But Jehoshaphat also said to the king of Israel, "First seek the counsel of the LORD."
6 So the king of Israel brought together the prophets—about four hundred men—and asked them, "Shall I go to war against Ramoth Gilead, or shall I refrain?"
"Go," they answered, "for the Lord will give it into the king's hand."
7 But Jehoshaphat asked, "Is there not a prophet of the LORD here whom we can inquire of?"
8 The king of Israel answered Jehoshaphat, "There is still one man through whom we can inquire of the LORD, but I hate him because he never prophesies anything good about me, but always bad. He is Micaiah son of Imlah."
"The king should not say that," Jehoshaphat replied.
9 So the king of Israel called one of his officials and said, "Bring Micaiah son of Imlah at once."
10 Dressed in their royal robes, the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat king of Judah were sitting on their thrones at the threshing floor by the entrance of the gate of Samaria, with all the prophets prophesying before them. 11 Now Zedekiah son of Kenaanah had made iron horns and he declared, "This is what the LORD says: 'With these you will gore the Arameans until they are destroyed.' "
12 All the other prophets were prophesying the same thing. "Attack Ramoth Gilead and be victorious," they said, "for the LORD will give it into the king's hand."
13 The messenger who had gone to summon Micaiah said to him, "Look, as one man the other prophets are predicting success for the king. Let your word agree with theirs, and speak favorably."
14 But Micaiah said, "As surely as the LORD lives, I can tell him only what the LORD tells me."
15 When he arrived, the king asked him, "Micaiah, shall we go to war against Ramoth Gilead, or shall I refrain?"
"Attack and be victorious," he answered, "for the LORD will give it into the king's hand."
16 The king said to him, "How many times must I make you swear to tell me nothing but the truth in the name of the LORD ?"
17 Then Micaiah answered, "I saw all Israel scattered on the hills like sheep without a shepherd, and the LORD said, 'These people have no master. Let each one go home in peace.' "
18 The king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, "Didn't I tell you that he never prophesies anything good about me, but only bad?"
19 Micaiah continued, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD : I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?'
"One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'
22 " 'By what means?' the LORD asked.
" 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.
" 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'
23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."
24 Then Zedekiah son of Kenaanah went up and slapped Micaiah in the face. "Which way did the spirit from the LORD go when he went from me to speak to you?" he asked.
25 Micaiah replied, "You will find out on the day you go to hide in an inner room."
26 The king of Israel then ordered, "Take Micaiah and send him back to Amon the ruler of the city and to Joash the king's son 27 and say, 'This is what the king says: Put this fellow in prison and give him nothing but bread and water until I return safely.' "
28 Micaiah declared, "If you ever return safely, the LORD has not spoken through me." Then he added, "Mark my words, all you people!"


You can find the same thing in 1 Chronicles 18. Now how does that gel with our ideal of a God who does not lie, and does not approve of lying? While God did not lie here, He definitely gave His approval for a lie to be told. The purpose of the lie was to bring about the death of Ahab,

The story goes on, with the king of Israel dying as prophesied by Micaiah, justifying the truth of his prophecy. Oh, and Zedekiah does hide in an inner room.

BTW, God does tell people to kill. The kingdom of Israel was taken away from Saul, because he wouldn't kill the Amalekite King that God said he had to.

If you take the time to read the Bible from cover to cover, you will find some weird stuff in it.

NaLuvena, my brother, my friend, you didn't need to quote half of the chapter, but thanks anyway.
I did think you had something for me and I thought it would be 1 kings 22. this is the story most people go to to try and prove that God approves of some lies.

I didn't say God does not tell people to kill. I specifically said that He does, He just doesn't tell people to murder, and there is a difference.

As with our last discussion I really have to say that I don't think you see any real distinction between the Old Testament and the New Testament on how God opperates. In the Old Testament God dealt with people harshly because of sin. There was open warfare between him and man. In the New Testament Jesus put an end to that warfare. That's why when Jesus was born the angels shouted out, peace on earth and good will towards men. When Jesus paid the price for our sins on the cross the warfare ceased to exist and God declared peace. He had delt with the problem of sin once and for all and sin no longer is an issue between him and us, and that includes everybody.

As for the story in 1 Kings 22, many believe that the lying spirit was an evil spirit, or an angel not loyal to God, I agree. Ahab was a king under judgement because of his wickedness. God put it into the hands of the angels to carry out the punishment. He allowed the angles to come up with their own plan on how to carry it out. Yes God agreed with it and allowed the lie to go forward but for an all knowing God who knows the beginning from the end it really was inconsequential that He allow this lying spirit to lie. The main purpose was to punish Ahab with death. If God wanted to, all He had to do was strike him down. What I'm saying here is that the lie is a red herring, don't get hung up on it.

 

[pinetree]

How did I know that you'd bite?

What if God gave his permission for someone to go and lie to achieve something? Does it make the lie said in that case sin? I don't think so, just the same as God telling David to kill was not murder.

lol..neph cant resist a baited hook...

He will let you know he knows it is a hook,but still comes around...

 

[shailferns]

well i believe that lying sometimes is ok specially if it is for a good cause......im sure all of us sometime or the other have come across this situation in our lives......so you know what im talking about......