it is ok to lie when...

[Svt4Him]

And? That doesn't make lieing not a sin. Corrie Ten Boom, one of those person's you are talking about, would go to God and ask for forgiveness for telling those type of lies.

You see, you think you're argueing that some lies are sin while some are not, and the determining factor is whether good or bad was the result. My perspective is, you're saying that God is going to impute that sin on your account so in order to get around that you chose which lie resulted in bad and which resulted in good. The lie where the result was bad, you are essencially saying God is going to hold it against you. This way you can view all lies that result in good as not being a sin.

Too true. The end does not justify the means.

 

[JimB]

I have been thinking about this and while I believe a lie is always wrong, I think I would probably lie to save someone’s life. When people were hiding Jews in their attic from Nazis during WWII I am sure God was understanding when they lied to SS troops and told them no one was in their homes. I would have done that.

But the sinister thing about a lie is that it can be come a habitual way of living and is most always done for selfish reasons—to hide a mistake, save money, pad a resume, not pay taxes, avoid responsibility—and none of these are Christian virtues.

~ Hugh D’Mann

Contentment is not found in having what you want, but in wanting what you have​

 

[nephilimiyr]

I have been thinking about this and while I believe a lie is always wrong, I think I would probably lie to save someone’s life. When people were hiding Jews in their attic from Nazis during WWII I am sure God was understanding when they lied to SS troops and told them no one was in their homes. I would have done that.

It's hard not to say that you wouldn't and I'm sure everyone here would say that in cases like this they would, I know I would. I agree, God would be understanding, I think God is understanding towards most of our sins however. That doesn't mean He isn't hurt by them. In a perfect world people would never have a reason to tell a lie or a fib.

But the sinister thing about a lie is that it can be come a habitual way of living and is most always done for selfish reasons—to hide a mistake, save money, pad a resume, not pay taxes, avoid responsibility—and none of these are Christian virtues.

You just said perhaps the most profound statement of the thread. It's so true, and avoiding responsibilities is one of those things we men can become so good at it if we let it. It's one of those things I struggle with from time to time.

Sometimes my wife will tell my son to tell me to take care of something that I should've already done. I'm doing absolutely nothing, perhaps sitting here in front of my pc talking to you guys, and my son comes up to me and gives me the message and I tell him to tell her that I'm busy. I know that isn't right but at the time I feels it appropriate, albeit for selfish reasons. And it really is a lie because if that something is my sole responsibility then I should've taken care of it before my wife had to remind me, and if it is something I have put off then being busy is no excuse.

 

[NaLuvena]

NaLuvena, my brother, my friend, you didn't need to quote half of the chapter, but thanks anyway.

You're most welcome, my friend

I did think you had something for me and I thought it would be 1 kings 22. this is the story most people go to to try and prove that God approves of some lies.

Somehow, I get the feeling that you're on the other side of the fence on this one

I didn't say God does not tell people to kill. I specifically said that He does, He just doesn't tell people to murder, and there is a difference.

Well, murder is unsanctioned killing. AS God Himself is the sanctioning authority, He cannot, by definition, tell someone to murder. Since all souls belong to Him, He has every right to kill whomever He chooses, and it cannot be considered murder.

As with our last discussion I really have to say that I don't think you see any real distinction between the Old Testament and the New Testament on how God opperates. In the Old Testament God dealt with people harshly because of sin. There was open warfare between him and man. In the New Testament Jesus put an end to that warfare. That's why when Jesus was born the angels shouted out, peace on earth and good will towards men. When Jesus paid the price for our sins on the cross the warfare ceased to exist and God declared peace. He had delt with the problem of sin once and for all and sin no longer is an issue between him and us, and that includes everybody.

You're correct. I do not see any difference in God OT and NT.

God still demands a sacrifice for our sins even today. He is still in open warfare with His enemies, the same as in the OT. Salvation has always been by faith, from the beginning. We are told today to walk with God, but the best example of this we have is Enoch, the 7th generation from Adam.

God is not bound by time. He is outside of it, which is why He does not change, because change is a function of being subject to time.

God does not change. If there is a difference between the OT and the NT MO's of God, then He has changed.

Solomon said it best, when he said "There is nothing new under the sun".

As for the story in 1 Kings 22, many believe that the lying spirit was an evil spirit, or an angel not loyal to God, I agree. Ahab was a king under judgement because of his wickedness. God put it into the hands of the angels to carry out the punishment. He allowed the angles to come up with their own plan on how to carry it out. Yes God agreed with it and allowed the lie to go forward but for an all knowing God who knows the beginning from the end it really was inconsequential that He allow this lying spirit to lie. The main purpose was to punish Ahab with death. If God wanted to, all He had to do was strike him down. What I'm saying here is that the lie is a red herring, don't get hung up on it.

True, it's a red herring, but it doesn't change the fact, that in this case, at least, God sanctioned the lie.

Does that make it a sin then, if it's done with God's approval? That is the parallel with killing on God's command, such killing is not murder, and is not sin. It becomes sin when you don't obey God.

 

[pinetree]

No my firend..you do not have a big nose.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Well, murder is unsanctioned killing. AS God Himself is the sanctioning authority, He cannot, by definition, tell someone to murder. Since all souls belong to Him, He has every right to kill whomever He chooses, and it cannot be considered murder.

Murder is alot more than "unsanctioned" killing. Is sanctioned killing another form of murder? Otherwise I can't tell if you still think you have to debate this with me or simply add to what I said.

You're correct. I do not see any difference in God OT and NT.

God still demands a sacrifice for our sins even today.

Really? You truely believe that? You're going to have to show that to me.

Hebrews 9:28, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people;

10:8, First he said, Sacrifices and offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them (although the law required them to be made).

10:10, And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The blood of Jesus was the only sacrifice that could satisfy God. There are no more sacrifices to be made, you either accept Christ in faith as the one and only sacrifice or it will do you no good.

Any attempt to add to the sacrifice that Jesus Christ made is an offense to God because you are in effect saying that his death on the cross was not good enough.

He is still in open warfare with His enemies, the same as in the OT. Salvation has always been by faith, from the beginning. We are told today to walk with God, but the best example of this we have is Enoch, the 7th generation from Adam.

I disagree, God has dealt with the sin problem, now it's just a matter of people coming into belief through faith. As soon as Jesus Christ died and was raised from the dead the warfare between him and man ceased to exist. There isn't a person alive today that will go to hell because of their sins but because of their rejection of Jesus Christ.

God is not bound by time. He is outside of it, which is why He does not change, because change is a function of being subject to time.

God does not change. If there is a difference between the OT and the NT MO's of God, then He has changed.

Solomon said it best, when he said "There is nothing new under the sun".



True, it's a red herring, but it doesn't change the fact, that in this case, at least, God sanctioned the lie.

Does that make it a sin then, if it's done with God's approval? That is the parallel with killing on God's command, such killing is not murder, and is not sin. It becomes sin when you don't obey God.

Right now is a bad time for me to do this so I'll finish this later.

 

[NaLuvena]

Murder is alot more than "unsanctioned" killing. Is sanctioned killing another form of murder? Otherwise I can't tell if you still think you have to debate this with me or simply add to what I said.

Nope. Sanctioned killing is just killing, not murder. I am not debating thsi with you, my friend, just adding my views on the issue. I think we agree on this one.

Really? You truely believe that? You're going to have to show that to me.

Hebrews 9:28, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people;

10:8, First he said, Sacrifices and offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them (although the law required them to be made).

10:10, And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The blood of Jesus was the only sacrifice that could satisfy God. There are no more sacrifices to be made, you either accept Christ in faith as the one and only sacrifice or it will do you no good.

Any attempt to add to the sacrifice that Jesus Christ made is an offense to God because you are in effect saying that his death on the cross was not good enough.

Exactly.

The sacrifice we need (we as in, those of us who believe in Christ) is the death of Christ on the cross. If you read the verses you quoted, God does not desire a sacrifice, but it is a requirement under law. Jesus has offered the sacrifice on our behalf, but if we do not accept that sacrifice, our sins are still upon us.

I agree that you cannot add to the sacrifice Christ made. However, if you do not accept that sacrifice as yours, then you will have to pay for your sins. This is where the OT and the NT are still the same, God still requires a sacrifice, from everyone.

I disagree, God has dealt with the sin problem, now it's just a matter of people coming into belief through faith. As soon as Jesus Christ died and was raised from the dead the warfare between him and man ceased to exist. There isn't a person alive today that will go to hell because of their sins but because of their rejection of Jesus Christ.

Well, God has made the sacrifice required to pay the penalty of our sins. If anyone rejects the sacrifice, then their sins are still upon them and they will go to hell, because the sins have not been paid for.

Right now is a bad time for me to do this so I'll finish this later.

Hope it's nothing dire....

 

[nephilimiyr]

The sacrifice we need (we as in, those of us who believe in Christ) is the death of Christ on the cross. If you read the verses you quoted, God does not desire a sacrifice, but it is a requirement under law. Jesus has offered the sacrifice on our behalf, but if we do not accept that sacrifice, our sins are still upon us.

I agree that you cannot add to the sacrifice Christ made. However, if you do not accept that sacrifice as yours, then you will have to pay for your sins. This is where the OT and the NT are still the same, God still requires a sacrifice, from everyone.

No, God does not require a sacrifice from anyone. There is no one who can equal the sacrifice that Jesus Christ paid on the cross. When you say it like that you are in effect saying that we can do something as a sacrifice that can equal what Jesus did on the cross, that is false.

Well, God has made the sacrifice required to pay the penalty of our sins. If anyone rejects the sacrifice, then their sins are still upon them and they will go to hell, because the sins have not been paid for.

Do you speak fluent English? Honestly, I'm just wondering because if you believe all that then why do you say "God still demands a sacrifice for our sins even today" and "from everyone"? You're saying that wrong. By saying it the way you do you are implying that something needs to be sacrificed yet and it needs to be done by us.

Hope it's nothing dire....

No, just got real busy over here.

 

[NaLuvena]

No, God does not require a sacrifice from anyone. There is no one who can equal the sacrifice that Jesus Christ paid on the cross. When you say it like that you are in effect saying that we can do something as a sacrifice that can equal what Jesus did on the cross, that is false.



Do you speak fluent English? Honestly, I'm just wondering because if you believe all that then why do you say "God still demands a sacrifice for our sins even today" and "from everyone"? You're saying that wrong. By saying it the way you do you are implying that something needs to be sacrificed yet and it needs to be done by us.

What I mean is, we all sin. God requires a sacrifice for the sin, to fulfill the law. God made a sacrifice, the perfect one at that, 2000 years ago, to atone for all sin, for all time. IF we don't accept that sacrifice as ours, then our sins are still upon us.

When someone does not accept the sacrifice God made for them, then God will require a sacrifice from them, or they pay the price, eternal separation from God. As we cannot offer the perfect sacrifice, I guess the person in question will go to hell.

I see your point, maybe I need to work on the way I express myself more.

 

[nephilimiyr]

He is still in open warfare with His enemies, the same as in the OT. Salvation has always been by faith, from the beginning. We are told today to walk with God, but the best example of this we have is Enoch, the 7th generation from Adam.

No God is not in open warfare with his enemies. He has declared victory over them and has passed sentence on them. The warfare is over, He has won and He has declared peace with mankind.

Jesus said:
John 12:31, Now is the time for judgement on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.

If you say that God is still in open warfare with his enemies then you make Jesus here a liar.

The angels declared peace at Jesus' birth:
Luke 2:14, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests.

"On whom his favor rests" was speaking to the Jews, but they rejected him. Now God's favor rests on all mankind.
Matthew 21:43, Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

God is not in open warfare with people but is in the process of reconciling the world to himself.
2 Corinthians 5:19, that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

How can anyone say that God is in open warfare against man when He is not counting mens sins against them? And the use of the word "world" there is talking about all peoples throughout the whole world. God is not counting mens sins against them. God dealt with the issue of sin 2,000 years ago. People will not go to hell because of their sins but because of their rejection of Jesus Christ.

I'm not done yet

Colossians 1:20, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

God is not in open warfare but has brought the ministry of reconciliation. He has made peace with mankind through the blood of Jesus.

 

[nephilimiyr]

What I mean is, we all sin. God requires a sacrifice for the sin, to fulfill the law. God made a sacrifice, the perfect one at that, 2000 years ago, to atone for all sin, for all time. IF we don't accept that sacrifice as ours, then our sins are still upon us.

When someone does not accept the sacrifice God made for them, then God will require a sacrifice from them, or they pay the price, eternal separation from God. As we cannot offer the perfect sacrifice, I guess the person in question will go to hell.

I see your point, maybe I need to work on the way I express myself more.

Yeah, I know you know what you're talking about there because you explained it well enough but the way you said that line was a bit contradictory to your explanation.

 

[nephilimiyr]

God is not bound by time. He is outside of it, which is why He does not change, because change is a function of being subject to time.

God does not change. If there is a difference between the OT and the NT MO's of God, then He has changed.

Solomon said it best, when he said "There is nothing new under the sun".

God's nature doesn't change, but the way He interacts with humans does change, and the OT and NT clearly proves that.

True, it's a red herring, but it doesn't change the fact, that in this case, at least, God sanctioned the lie.

Well I guess it's a matter of opinion then because I don't see it that way at all. I don't see God sanctioning the lie because that lying spirit could've gone and lied to all those prophets with or without Gods approval. Do you realise that? All I see Giod doing is saying, yeah, that'll work. The main point is, that spirit did not need God's approval to lie.

Does that make it a sin then, if it's done with God's approval? That is the parallel with killing on God's command, such killing is not murder, and is not sin. It becomes sin when you don't obey God.

Well, not quite, first prove that anybody or anything needs God's approval to sin.

 

[NaLuvena]

No God is not in open warfare with his enemies. He has declared victory over them and has passed sentence on them. The warfare is over, He has won and He has declared peace with mankind.

Jesus said:
John 12:31, Now is the time for judgement on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.

If you say that God is still in open warfare with his enemies then you make Jesus here a liar.

That verse speaks of Judgment, and not of the end of God's war on His enemies.

You're probably only thinking of human enemies, but there are non-human enemies of God as well,

The angels declared peace at Jesus' birth:
Luke 2:14, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests.

Peace only to men, Neph. Not all of God's enemies are human.

"On whom his favor rests" was speaking to the Jews, but they rejected him. Now God's favor rests on all mankind.
Matthew 21:43, Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

God is not in open warfare with people but is in the process of reconciling the world to himself.
2 Corinthians 5:19, that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Jesus is now sitting at the right hand of God, waiting for His enemies to be made His footstool. If He is waiting, then the enemies of God are still here.

How can anyone say that God is in open warfare against man when He is not counting mens sins against them? And the use of the word "world" there is talking about all peoples throughout the whole world. God is not counting mens sins against them. God dealt with the issue of sin 2,000 years ago. People will not go to hell because of their sins but because of their rejection of Jesus Christ.

I'm not done yet

Colossians 1:20, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth of things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

God is not in open warfare but has brought the ministry of reconciliation. He has made peace with mankind through the blood of Jesus.

Surely, then, what is the opposition that believers face even today? What would you call the Hindu extremists killing Christians in India? That is evidence that God's enemies are still around. The time you are aluding to will come, but it is not here yet. Death is the last enemy of Christ to be defeated, and that has not happened yet, for we still die. We have the assurance of victory, but not the actual victory yet.

1 Corinthians 15:25

For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

God's enemies are not only human. The human ones have a possibility of reconciliation with God, the ones otherwise, have a fight to the end awaiting.

In all this, my original point remains, the God of the OT is the God of the NT. He has never changed.

 

[NaLuvena]

God's nature doesn't change, but the way He interacts with humans does change, and the OT and NT clearly proves that.

Even the way that God interacts with humans does not change. It's the humans that change in that relationship. God still deals with us the same way He always has.

You can see this when He says:

2 Timothy 2:13

if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

Well I guess it's a matter of opinion then because I don't see it that way at all. I don't see God sanctioning the lie because that lying spirit could've gone and lied to all those prophets with or without Gods approval. Do you realise that? All I see Giod doing is saying, yeah, that'll work. The main point is, that spirit did not need God's approval to lie.

God could have said "No" and the plan to lie would have stopped there.

Well, not quite, first prove that anybody or anything needs God's approval to sin.

If God approves, how can it be sin? God will not approve something in contradiction to His law, so whatever He approves, must be legal, and therefore not sin.

 

[nephilimiyr]

That verse speaks of Judgment, and not of the end of God's war on His enemies.

You're probably only thinking of human enemies, but there are non-human enemies of God as well,



Peace only to men, Neph. Not all of God's enemies are human.




Jesus is now sitting at the right hand of God, waiting for His enemies to be made His footstool. If He is waiting, then the enemies of God are still here.


Surely, then, what is the opposition that believers face even today? What would you call the Hindu extremists killing Christians in India? That is evidence that God's enemies are still around. The time you are aluding to will come, but it is not here yet. Death is the last enemy of Christ to be defeated, and that has not happened yet, for we still die. We have the assurance of victory, but not the actual victory yet.

1 Corinthians 15:25

For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

God's enemies are not only human. The human ones have a possibility of reconciliation with God, the ones otherwise, have a fight to the end awaiting.

In all this, my original point remains, the God of the OT is the God of the NT. He has never changed.

Oh people have made themselves enemies of God, that doesn't mean God considers them enemies. He considers them lost and in need of him.

As for the spiritual enemies, the fallen angels and demons, Satan; yes I agree, the battles still rage with many of them.

 

[NaLuvena]

Oh people have made themselves enemies of God, that doesn't mean God considers them enemies. He considers them lost and in need of him.

As for the spiritual enemies, the fallen angels and demons, Satan; yes I agree, the battles still rage with many of them.

I 'm pretty sure even some people would be enemies of God. God would know who they are, and for them, God would wage war against them.

 

[NaLuvena]

The point is though, that God is still the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow, OT or NT, forever. Unchanging.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Even the way that God interacts with humans does not change. It's the humans that change in that relationship. God still deals with us the same way He always has.

You can see this when He says:

2 Timothy 2:13

if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

He does not deal with sin though. God dealt with sin 2000 years ago, the job was done, finished. God no longer sends angels out to slaughter hundreds of thousands. God no longer is counting mens sins against them, in the OT He did count mens sins against them but in the NT all of that changed.

Again, his nature hasn't changed, He's still a holy God, merciful and longsuffering. Yet He no longer counts mens sins against them.

God could have said "No" and the plan to lie would have stopped there.

Nope, sorry.

Hmmm, by saying that you are also saying that therefore there is no war even with Satan and his angles and demons. After all, if all God has to say is No and they will stop their sinning and rebellion then why doesn't God just say no to them? Seems to me that would be the way to end the war. Or are you now saying that God enjoys keeping this war going because He likes it when they sin? Seems to me you have painted youself in a corner now.

 

[nephilimiyr]

The point is though, that God is still the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow, OT or NT, forever. Unchanging.

Yes, I agree, his nature will not change, but that doesn't mean he doesn't ever make changes.

How do you explain the story of Jonah and the city of Ninevah? Jonah was to go to the city and tell them that God was going to destroy the city because of their sins. By the way, God doesn't do that anymore, just another one of those things he changed in the way he interacts with people.

But the people repented from their sins and what did God do? The story says that God repented and told Jonah to tell them that He will not destroy the city because of their repentence. How can a God that never changes anything repent?

Sorry, if I knew where the story was I would quote it for you.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

When people ask me to hide the truth (just for fun) they put me in the awkward position of having to violate my conscience for their entertainment. I just tell them to keep it a secret from me, too. And if I know of a surprise party for you and you ask me if it is so I will have to say, “How about them Astros.” And change the subject.

But I will not tell a lie just for people’s fun.

Sorry.

~ Hugh D’Mann

Contentment is not found in having what you want, but in wanting what you have​

But can you lie to incriminate innocent people and if you do not like what they believe? You know lying is not justified because you think you have some grand calling to rid the world of all who disagree with you. Lying is still lying. God hates liars, and all liars will be cast into the lake of fire. Lying is bad Jim. It is one of the big 10 "thou shalt not bear false witness...".
Jesus said people lie because they are the children of the devil and they are just doing what their father does. That is not a good crowd to be with.
Every witch hunt, persecution, and inquisition used this same wicked tool to vilify and convict the innocent. Another bad crowd to be associated with. It was people like this who lied against Jesus and helped murder him. That is the worst crowd to be with.
The Holy Spirit hates lies so much that He kills people for doing it.... even Christians.
Liars need to repent and be cleansed of this unrighteousness.