Is there two Catholic Churches ?

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JimR-OCDS

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Yes the Holy See has.

The CCCB continues to fail to assent to the Holy See's instruction on the usuage of lectionary the last I knew.

Check it out.


This sounds like an opinion not an actual fact.

I like to see a Vatican statement which states that the CCCB are in dissent.

FYI, statements from an individual inside the Vatican, doesn't make it so.

Jim
 
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Fish and Bread

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The CCCB continues to fail to assent to the Holy See's instruction on the usuage of lectionary the last I knew.

My understanding is that there have been agreed upon revisions to the NRSV (Which is the translation the Canadians use) for lectionary use that bring it into compliance with current Vatican policy on liturgical use of scripture. This puts it into the same category as the NAB (Used in the US), which as sold to the public wouldn't be able to be used in the lectionary, but which has had revisions done for use in the lectionary. That's why folks might notice some slight differences between the personal copy they have of either translation and what they hear at mass on Sundays.
 
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benedictaoo

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This sounds like an opinion not an actual fact.

I like to see a Vatican statement which states that the CCCB are in dissent.

FYI, statements from an individual inside the Vatican, doesn't make it so.

Jim

How about out the horses mouth?
The Winnipeg Statement

CANADIAN BISHOPS' STATEMENT ON THE ENCYCLICAL

"HUMANAE VITAE''

(The text of the statement on Pope Paul VI's Encyclical Letter "Humanae Vitae," issued by the Bishops of Canada, Sept. 27, 1968, at their Plenary Assembly held at St. Boniface-Winnipeg, Canada).

Editor's note: please carefully read Paragraph #17, 25, 26 and 34. These paragraphs represent the most objectionable parts of the Statement, especially paragraph 26.
The Winnipeg Statement

read it and weep. No really, weep over all this dissent.
 
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Fantine

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How about out the horses mouth?
The Winnipeg Statement

The Winnipeg Statement

read it and weep. No really, weep over all this dissent.

I prefer to offer them my sympathy and understanding.

I will save my tears for those who refuse to display any iota of Christian charity towards them.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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How about out the horses mouth?
The Winnipeg Statement

The Winnipeg Statement

read it and weep. No really, weep over all this dissent.



There's nothing to weep about.

Did the Vatican Condemn the statement by the CCCB?

Thats what I'm looking for, not the CCCB's statement.

Jim
 
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benedictaoo

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Response to Archbishop Leonard Wall
By Fr. Leonard Kennedy c.s.b
Issue: January/February 1999

Observations by Father Leonard Kennedy, c.s.b.

Winnipeg - It is surprising that Archbishop Leonard Wall has recently defended the Winnipeg Statement in a brief pastoral letter in his Archdiocesan Catholic News, entitled Moral Truth and Life. The Archbishop tells us that the Canadian bishops met in Winnipeg in 1968 to "enlighten the minds and move the hearts of the faithful." But it was Pope Paul VI who enlightened the minds and tried to move the hearts of the faithful to observe God's law of life and love. The Winnipeg Statement dimmed that light and turned the hearts of the faithful away from the truth, with tragic consequences.

Archbishop Wall implies that Pope Paul VI approved the Winnipeg Statement. I suggest a reading of Msgr. Vincent Foy's 1997 booklet Did Pope Paul Approve the Winnipeg Statement: A Search for Truth.1 When all the evidence is weighed it is clear that the message of the Holy Father through the Secretary of State was no more than a diplomatic acknowledgment. The same Secretary of State, Cardinal Cicognani, sent an open letter to Msgr. Foy, through the Apostolic Delegate and Archbishop Pocock of Toronto, expressing his personal thanks and that of the Holy Father for a critique severely criticizing the Winnipeg Statement.

It is claimed that at Winnipeg the Canadian bishops declared their support for the teaching of Humanae vitae. Archbishop Wall says: "Their explicit stated position stands: 'We are in accord with the teaching of the Holy Father' (#2)." However, the full text is: "We are in accord with the teaching of the Holy Father concerning the dignity of married life and the necessity of a truly Christian relationship between conjugal love and responsible parenthood" (#2). Where the support for the teaching of Humanae vitae? It did not exist.

In 1968, the bishops deliberately refrained from endorsing the Church's teaching against contraception because, as Bishop Alexander Carter, President of the Conference of Canadian Catholic Bishops at that time, said, "it was something of an identity crisis. For the first time we faced the necessity of making a statement which many felt could not be a simple Amen, a total and formal endorsement of the encyclical. We had to reckon with the fact of widespread dissent from some points of his [the Pope's] teaching among the Catholic faithful, priests, theologians, and probably certain of our own number."

Fr. Edward Sheridan, S.J., a peritus at the Winnipeg meeting, gave an accurate assessment when he said: "The Statement contained no general profession of assent to the whole teaching of Of Human Life [Humanae vitae], and nothing that could be interpreted as adding the local authority of the Canadian Hierarchy to that of the encyclical in general."2



Conscience

Archbishop Wall gives us, as does the Winnipeg Statement, a confusing and erroneous description of the role of conscience in the matter of contraception. He quotes a pastoral norm from the 1997 Vademecum for Confessors of the Pontifical Council for the Family which says that it is preferable to let penitents remain in good faith in cases of error due to subjectively invincible ignorance. Yet he does not explain how any Catholics can be in subjectively invincible ignorance concerning the Church's teaching against contraception.

By definition ignorance is invincible only when it cannot be gotten rid of by reasonable diligence commensurate with the importance of the matter. A casual investigation would show that today it is no longer possible to have doubts about the authoritative doctrine of the Church concerning Humanae Vitae and the unacceptability of dissent.3 Pope John Paul II said, in addressing a conference on Natural Family Planning: "What is taught by the Church on contraception does not belong to material freely debatable among theologians."4

The Church's doctrine on the relation of conscience to contraception is given to us clearly and succinctly in Vatican II. We are told that the spouses have the obligation to inform their consciences and conform them to the Church's teaching authority.5

The present Holy Father said in a general audience on August 17, 1983: "It is not enough to say we must always follow our conscience. Each one of us must form a right conscience, one that seeks to know the truth as revealed to us by God according to his wise and loving plan."

The sad truth is that the Canadian bishops at Winnipeg sought to provide Catholics with an "out" from God's law. This is plain from a statement of Cardinal Emmett Carter, a principal author of the Winnipeg Statement. He said: "We were trying to create a situation where Catholics would not feel that they were alienated from the Church although in the issue of birth control they could not follow the teaching of the Pope."6

To say that Catholics cannot observe the prohibition against contraception is to deny the sufficiency of grace, an error infallibly condemned by the Council of Trent (session 6, ch. 11).

Notes:

1. Available from the Ethics Information Centre, 53 Dundas St. E., Suite 308, Toronto, ON, M5B 1C6.

2. "Canadian Bishops on Of Human Life," America, Oct. 19, 1968, p. 349.

3. L'Osservatore Romano, Nov. 28, 1984.

4. Ibid., June 6, 1987.

5. The Church in the Modern World, #51. See also Humanae Vitae, #10.

6. My Father's Business: A Biography of His Eminence G. Emmett Cardinal Carter (MacMillan of Canada, 1990), p. 107.

But you want a statement from the Vatican itself? Why? You can't read this for yourself and SEE as plain as day that it is pure dissent.

All you are doing is splitting hairs.

Doesn't the CCC tell us the ABC is instringilly evil? Yes it does. Then how can we ever choose it in good concious. Impossible, we can not.

And FYI HV does not have to at all in any way be an infallible statement in order for it to be infallible becuase it comes from the deposit of faith passed down to us. IT IS infallible because it's a reiteration of what the Church has always taught since day one.

It's infallibility does not come from the pope, it comes from the fact that it's true.
 
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Anygma

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How about out the horses mouth?
The Winnipeg Statement

The Winnipeg Statement

read it and weep. No really, weep over all this dissent.


i guess you found the answer in a more concrete manner then i had. i only knew because my mom has told me. but i can see the fruits of this dissent all all over.

because our bishops has given us an example of dissent, everybody in turn feel they can dissent to any teaching of the Church at their discretion.
 
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Gwendolyn

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Well, thanks for making it seem like our entire country is a bunch of wackos.

Quite frankly, America isn't much different. Catholics there think they can contracept without issue, too. They figure people ought to stay out of their bedrooms and let them do what they feel is right. Maybe you don't have a Winnipeg statement, but your faithful are in the same boat.

Instead of pointing fingers, we should pray.

The priests I have spoken to around here, with whom I have felt comfortable discussing the issue of contraception, have overwhelmingly reaffirmed the Church's official teaching on contraception.

So, while you're lamenting the rotten disease that is Canada, don't forget the fact that there are actual orthodox priests and bishops out there.
 
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JoabAnias

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My understanding is that there have been agreed upon revisions to the NRSV (Which is the translation the Canadians use) for lectionary use that bring it into compliance with current Vatican policy on liturgical use of scripture. This puts it into the same category as the NAB (Used in the US), which as sold to the public wouldn't be able to be used in the lectionary, but which has had revisions done for use in the lectionary. That's why folks might notice some slight differences between the personal copy they have of either translation and what they hear at mass on Sundays.

Not exactly. The CCCB was told to remove the inclusive language from the lectionary directly from the Holy See and they blatantly refused.
 
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benedictaoo

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Well, thanks for making it seem like our entire country is a bunch of wackos.

Quite frankly, America isn't much different. Catholics there think they can contracept without issue, too. They figure people ought to stay out of their bedrooms and let them do what they feel is right. Maybe you don't have a Winnipeg statement, but your faithful are in the same boat.

Instead of pointing fingers, we should pray.

The priests I have spoken to around here, with whom I have felt comfortable discussing the issue of contraception, have overwhelmingly reaffirmed the Church's official teaching on contraception.

So, while you're lamenting the rotten disease that is Canada, don't forget the fact that there are actual orthodox priests and bishops out there.

This is not an attack on your country Gwen. I would have posted all the priests and bishops who are outraged by the Winnipeg statement and who defend the Church against these obvious enemies of our faith, but ah, Jim wasn't interested in that.
 
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Anygma

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Well, thanks for making it seem like our entire country is a bunch of wackos.

Quite frankly, America isn't much different. Catholics there think they can contracept without issue, too. They figure people ought to stay out of their bedrooms and let them do what they feel is right. Maybe you don't have a Winnipeg statement, but your faithful are in the same boat.

Instead of pointing fingers, we should pray.

The priests I have spoken to around here, with whom I have felt comfortable discussing the issue of contraception, have overwhelmingly reaffirmed the Church's official teaching on contraception.

So, while you're lamenting the rotten disease that is Canada, don't forget the fact that there are actual orthodox priests and bishops out there.

yes, thank God there are still good priests and we're not just a bunch of wackos but relativism is taking is toll in different areas. apparently, in our diocese, the majority wants the ordination of woman. i don't think this canadian example is meant to single canada out. i pointed it out because it might help explain where cardinal Turcotte might get his line of reasoning. we can see this relativism at work all over the world...

and i agree, we need to pray and pray hard!
 
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benedictaoo

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i guess you found the answer in a more concrete manner then i had. i only knew because my mom has told me. but i can see the fruits of this dissent all all over.

because our bishops has given us an example of dissent, everybody in turn feel they can dissent to any teaching of the Church at their discretion.

It's the same here in America. The bishops turn the other way and ignore dissenting parishes.
 
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JoabAnias

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There's nothing to weep about.

Did the Vatican Condemn the statement by the CCCB?

Thats what I'm looking for, not the CCCB's statement.

Jim

I have read one on the inclusive language issue in the lectionary.

Its been a couple years now.

I will see if I can find it.
 
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benedictaoo

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I prefer to offer them my sympathy and understanding.

I will save my tears for those who refuse to display any iota of Christian charity towards them.

well good for you!

I on the other hand choose to defend Christ's one true Church's teachings through which the world finds salvation. The ONLY means of salvation for the world is TRUTH.

If we fall away from the truth, then what?

But I will also (becuase I'm all about the both & and, not the either/or) pray right along side of you for all the poor blind fools all over the world who have allowed themselves to be blinded by misguided compassion and displaced zeal for radical errors being pawned off as truth. :crossrc: may God have mercy on their souls... Father forgive them, they know not what they do.

There is only one possible place something like that can come from and that place is evil. many souls fall to hell like snowflakes becuase they have no one to offer prayers and sacrifices for them... but we can walk and chew gum and the same time... we can dispel all the lies told about our beloved faith that are pawed off as truth AND pray.

Glory be to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, a world with out end, Amen. :crossrc:
 
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Gwendolyn

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I have read one on the inclusive language issue in the lectionary.

Its been a couple years now.

I will see if I can find it.

What do people read when they read from your American translation?

"Brothers"?

When our translation is read aloud, it doesn't say "brothers and sisters". I believe the translation is "beloved".

Maybe God doesn't smile upon translating it that way, though.
 
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Fish and Bread

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Not exactly. The CCCB was told to remove the inclusive language from the lectionary directly from the Holy See and they blatantly refused.

First, the Vatican approved the NRSV for use in Sunday masses, and then raised an issue about it for use in weekday masses a couple years later. The CCCB complied with the Vatican's request for revisions, and eventually gained the Vatican's recognitio. It took a while to unfold, but all of these Church translation issues do -- just look at how long the new missal translation is taking in the US right now. :) There was no refusal to do anything, and now things have been fully resolved to everyone's satisfaction. :)

The Canadian bishop's conference is in full compliance with the Vatican on this.

Here is a link to an article about what happened:

The Catholic Register - NRSV Bible gets Vatican recognition
 
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JoabAnias

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If we fall away from the truth, then what?

Poor Canada is in a state of free for all. Europe is worse.

Were you aware that the CCCB has rejected the GIRM since it came out:
http://www.cccb.ca/site/content/view/154/1063/lang,eng/

In regards to approval of the GIRM, who knows how much longer that will be. Here are some of the adaptations the Canadian Bishops have asked for:
  • an exemption concerning the requirement that only priests are to prepare communion cups. (I've seen this done in Eastern Canada and beginning here).
  • vesture of lay ministers
The Canadian Lectionary was based on the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible, which the Holy See rejected for liturgical use because of "inclusive language" and other problems. The Canadian bishops had already published the text, so they were given temporary permission to use it.

That 'temporary' permission was granted in 1994.

Canada only achieved a compromised lectionary just last year after 18 years of rejecting what the Church mandated. The compromise was that they would accept the removal of inclusive language so long as they could remove any instance of he/she which they did.

In a nutshell, the 'norms' for what to do at mass vary from parish to parish.

By having no norms they have in effect abolished all holy days of obligation and anything a liberal dreams up to introduce into the Mass by personal initiative he can safely indulge in.

There are some 200 religious orders in Canada in open dissent.
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2006/mar/06030801.html

Here is the group's website
http://www.crc-canada.org/main.cfm?c_siteLangue=_an

They even managed to get EWTN censored from radio up there from Jan 07 until about June of last year.

Please pray Mercy on us and for the whole world.

To get a scope of the secular problems read this:

TAX-FUNDED ABORTION in CANADA
 
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Fantine

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The NRSV sounds like a good translation. The NAB is so pedestrian.

I have an RSV.

There are different kinds of inclusive language. Certainly calling God the Father "mother" or "she" would be revisionist.

But acknowledging that there are two genders in the world by using "people" instead of "men" or "beloved" instead of "brothers" would be far preferable, I think.
 
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Gwendolyn

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lmao, Joab, we haven't rejected the GIRM. We aren't American, so we don't use the American GIRM.

We aren't writing a liberal GIRM and we didn't reject one already. Canada is using the last GIRM we received, from the 80s or 90s. The new one comes out late this year/next year. We are also getting a brand new translation of the Mass that is more faithful to the Latin, implemented in 2010. (I have a copy of the Canadian GIRM and the new Mass translation.)

Just because we're slower with translations and revisions because of the language thing doesn't mean we're trying to do something wrong here.
 
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JoabAnias

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First, the Vatican approved the NRSV for use in Sunday masses, and then raised an issue about it for use in weekday masses a couple years later. The CCCB complied with the Vatican's request for revisions, and eventually gained the Vatican's recognitio.

The version that was put in was not the approved version. It was rejected and it was not pulled but used in its unapproved state for years.

They were instructed to remove it immediately and refused to do so thus putting themselves in a state of disobedience and they risked excommunication.

They only reached a compromise just last year but not until they pushed it as far as they could.

I've been at this a few years ya know. ;)
 
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