Is there two Catholic Churches ?

Status
Not open for further replies.

JoabAnias

Steward of proportionality- I Cor 13:1, 1 Tim 3:15
Supporter
Nov 26, 2007
21,200
3,283
✟82,874.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
It's not that I don't trust you, I just don't necessarily trust the websites where you find this stuff sometimes. :) It's also possible that you and I might have two different interpretations of the same material, so that's another reason I sometimes ask for sources, so I can digest them and interpret them for myself.

For some reason I recall the document I read was on EWTN somewhere.

This is interesting. What sort of things did you see?

Furnishings. Specifically some hippy ideology from the 60's that stripped tradition out of the Church in what are commonly known as reck-o-vations.

The Cistercians have an ideal of simplicity to start with that I understand and agree with. And don't get me wrong, the place was a slice of heaven and I am not trying to be judgmental but just report some of my observations.

What I found contradictory was the removal of kneelers, removal of traditional stained glass in favor of geometric shapes, in the apse of the sanctuary all the windows were removed except two on one side to project light on the altar while, and especially, the presence of Jesus in the Tabernacle is off to the right and against the back wall. The only ornate chair in the whole place was where the Tabernacle should have been imo.

How else I detected some conflict was that despite their ideal of simplicity, they have made some rather wealthy expenditures such as half a mill for an organ and the self sustaining business is more about profit and secularized than I would have expected.

The belief and faith in the real presence was there but not emphasized enough for my taste but I prefer ad orientum worship.

I also detected some questionable books in the book store but that sort of thing can get by anyones radar. (Some on Buddhism, but the Dali lama has visited there and others on centering prayer and the Poem of the Man God which I suppose anyone has the option to read anyway, I just didn't expect to see them.) For the most part they were very Orthodox and I bought a couple on St. Benedict. I also discovered a new publisher that offers a wonderful Catholic Study Bible on par with Navarre or Ignatius that I had not heard of before; Sacra Pagina and Collegeville Bible Commentary New Testament Set

There was one other interesting thing, in talking with one of the monks I discovered they are autonomous (not under a Bishop) and adjust their rule according to their needs. This means they follow the "Spirit" of the Benedictine rule but not the letter which didn't make a lot of sense when they do not follow the Spirit of the Church in all opinions. Such as annulment for example but I attributed that to being cloistered and celibate. Another thing was no kneeling at the consecration which is specifically in the canon.

But hey it wasn't my Parish. :) To find only two discrepancies in canon for an institution not under a bishop and autonomous is quite remarkable for a place 150 years old. And the chant of the Divine Office 7 times a day was like being in a choir of angels in heaven itself.

Oh, and there are no more hermitages there and they don't allow visitations to Merton's any more for some reason and there were no stations of the cross in the Church but that was understandable as they are reformed Trappists and not Franciscans. They did have them in the cloister. They even had a computer room and a library bigger than the one at my home town. There are some advanced minds there without a doubt. They are on all levels of education there and in harmony. I met some that were way over my head and another, the oldest, who had been there since 1940 who never went beyond grade school. All very remarkable.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

JimR-OCDS

God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love
Oct 28, 2008
18,341
3,284
The Kingdom of Heaven
Visit site
✟185,132.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Response to Archbishop Leonard Wall
By Fr. Leonard Kennedy c.s.b
Issue: January/February 1999



But you want a statement from the Vatican itself? Why? You can't read this for yourself and SEE as plain as day that it is pure dissent.

All you are doing is splitting hairs.

Doesn't the CCC tell us the ABC is instringilly evil? Yes it does. Then how can we ever choose it in good concious. Impossible, we can not.

And FYI HV does not have to at all in any way be an infallible statement in order for it to be infallible becuase it comes from the deposit of faith passed down to us. IT IS infallible because it's a reiteration of what the Church has always taught since day one.

It's infallibility does not come from the pope, it comes from the fact that it's true.


Again, its an opinion of another person, Fr Kennedy, not an official rebuke by the Vatican.

Nice try though.

Jim
 
Upvote 0

JimR-OCDS

God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love
Oct 28, 2008
18,341
3,284
The Kingdom of Heaven
Visit site
✟185,132.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Don't forget, the USCCB revision of the liturgy has been going back and forth between Rome and the USA for years now. It doesn't mean Rome is rejecting the USCCB liturgy, but working out issues.

Personally, the revisions of the liturgy that we're going to get, are going to be meaningless words.

Example:

Priest: The Lord be with you.

Response: And with your spirit. (Changed from, "And Also with You.")


Priest: Let us Give thanks to the Lord Our God

Response: It is right and just. (Changed from "it is right to give him thanks and praise.)

The USCCB had pressure from both liberals and conservatives to change according to their particular ideology.

The end result is that the average Catholic will be asking themselves when seeing theses changes in the liturgy,
... "Huh?"

As it is, there are many Bishops who are now saying that the new wording will only serve to
disconnect people from those parts of the Mass.

They should've left well enough alone.

Jim
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

JoabAnias

Steward of proportionality- I Cor 13:1, 1 Tim 3:15
Supporter
Nov 26, 2007
21,200
3,283
✟82,874.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Again, its an opinion of another person, Fr Kennedy, not an official rebuke by the Vatican.

Nice try though.

Jim

What I am thinking of Jim is the document from Rome telling the CCCB to replace the lectionary with penalty for failure to comply, as I recall.

Its out there somewhere. Check EWTN.
 
Upvote 0

Michael96

Newbie
Mar 9, 2009
166
19
✟7,899.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
They should've left well enough alone.

Yes, it's hard to see after all the effort that any significant improvement has been made (from what changed I have read about). I think they might have spent too long debating/discussing it - to the point where they could no longer see the wood for the trees. Perhaps they'll realise that at the 11th hour and abandon fiddling with it.
 
Upvote 0

Fish and Bread

Dona nobis pacem
Jan 31, 2005
14,109
2,389
✟60,685.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I have been a Lector for more than 25 years now, (in the United States), so I am probably more familiar with the Sunday readings than most people. What I have noticed a couple of years ago, is a subtle translation change in the lectionary. The lectionary now uses inclusive language, which I have observed in many cases has changed the entire translation of the scripture meaning.

I remember hearing "Brothers and sisters" a few times at mass during readings, which surprised me, because I thought the Church didn't like inclusive language for liturgical use, and that is the most common example of it I see in bibles that use inclusive language. I figured that'd be one things that they'd take out of the NAB when using it liturgically.

What I found contradictory was the removal of kneelers

That surprises me. A Trappist monastery is the last place I'd expect not to find kneelers.

I also detected some questionable books in the book store but that sort of thing can get by anyones radar. (Some on Buddhism, but the Dali lama has visited there and others on centering prayer and the Poem of the Man God which I suppose anyone has the option to read anyway, I just didn't expect to see them.
Merton did a lot of ecumenical stuff later in life and was known for working closely with eastern religions and working to integrate their insights into meditation and such into his spirituality, while trying to restore a more contemplative character to his order. So, it doesn't really surprise me to hear that they have some Buddhist books and so forth in their library. Catholicism has the truth, but other religions may have certain techniques or other ways of putting things that Catholics could find helpful, as long as they keep the Church's teachings and beliefs in mind on their journey.

There was one other interesting thing, in talking with one of the monks I discovered they are autonomous (not under a Bishop) and adjust their rule according to their needs.
Interesting. I was not aware of that. I thought the Trappists were the strictest Cicterercians. Do any orders literally follow the rule of St. Benedict these days?

There are some advanced minds there without a doubt. They are on all levels of education there and in harmony. I met some that were way over my head and another, the oldest, who had been there since 1940 who never went beyond grade school. All very remarkable.
I always enjoy books written by monks much more than other religious books. It seems like they have really deep insights into faith. It's not that they necessarily always have more intellectual knowledge or even pure faith -- it just seems like there is something about a contemplative liturgical-prayer driven lifestyle that lends itself to depth. It's kind of hard to explain what I mean by depth, because I don't mean detail, it's more like that you can tell they are immersed in a spiritual ocean and live and breath it, and it gives their writings a certain ineffable spiritual character.

In addition to "The Seven Story Mountain", by Thomas Merton, which I know you said you'd also read, another one I lived was "O Holy Mountain", by a Catholic monk visiting an Eastern Orthodox mountain known for all of it's monasteries. The gentleman's name who wrote the second book escapes me at the moment, but it is a good one if you can find it. :)

Don't forget, the USCCB revision of the liturgy has been going back and fo
Personally, the revisions of the liturgy that we're going to get, are going to be meaningless words.

I actually like the upcoming changes to the mass translation. I think they will lend the liturgy more an aura of majesty and tradition. The current translation is a bit utilitarian, in my view, and seems a bit too "everyday", in some respects.

The current mass translation reminds me a lot of the NAB, and the newer one coming down the pike more of the NRSV. I know that sounds a little odd to say, because the new translation of the mass is considered to lean more conservative (if anything) and the NRSV is considered to lean more liberal (if anything), but both seem tied to the principle of using fairly literal but very poetic majestic traditional yet fully modern language. They are actually the same in more ways than they are different, even though they seem to appeal to two different "audiences" (i.e. the people who like one rarely like the other). I find I'm like that with a lot of things -- my favorites in terms of a lot of stuff in general in life are things you wouldn't expect the same person to like.
 
Upvote 0

Gwendolyn

back in black
Jan 28, 2005
12,340
1,647
Canada
✟20,680.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Random -

At the university, we have Mass for the students in a lecture hall (removable chairs/tables) with tile floors. We do not kneel there... stand instead.

I like kneeling and whenever I go there, I really miss it. I know that I can technically kneel if I want to, but people talk about how a unity of posture is important, and I don't want to stand out.

I feel more comfortable kneeling, and I can also concentrate better when I am kneeling.

One time I went on a pilgrimage to the Shrine of the Canadian Martyrs here in Ontario. We had Mass in a small clearing in the woods where one of the martyrs was... martyred (there was an altar there made out of fieldstones). It was early summer, it had rained the previous day, and it was humid and there were blackflies and mosquitos all around - but when it came time for the Consecration, everyone kneeled. My knees got muddy and I accidentally knelt on an anthill, but to this day it is one of my favourite "Catholic" memories. I was so moved that everyone knelt down without even thinking.

It just feels confusing sometimes. Why would it be so difficult for those who are able (ie not elderly, not injured) to kneel in a church?
 
Upvote 0

JoabAnias

Steward of proportionality- I Cor 13:1, 1 Tim 3:15
Supporter
Nov 26, 2007
21,200
3,283
✟82,874.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
That surprises me. A Trappist monastery is the last place I'd expect not to find kneelers.

Well like I said the idea was to keep the furnishings simple so there were individual chairs. There were some rubber pads under each one.

Look at the b&w picture of the new organ at this link. There was a row in the front but everything from there back was those black wire chairs you will see on the right. (Accept for the choir in the middle which you can see in the top photo and where I was invited to join in the Divine Office). There were visitors in the back with the same chairs and a balcony above that which did have pews with kneelers. They only kneel once during the Mass instead of twice.

Merton did a lot of ecumenical stuff later in life and was known for working closely with eastern religions and working to integrate their insights into meditation and such into his spirituality, while trying to restore a more contemplative character to his order. So, it doesn't really surprise me to hear that they have some Buddhist books and so forth in their library. Catholicism has the truth, but other religions may have certain techniques or other ways of putting things that Catholics could find helpful, as long as they keep the Church's teachings and beliefs in mind on their journey.

I would expect them in the library. If I didn't say this, I meant to say in the book store/gift shop. I think eastern zen stuff is rather popular among monks. Yea, Merton died in China I think it was. Electrocution I believe. Ironic huh, being a hermit with no electricity much of his life, he gets electrocuted in China.

Interesting. I was not aware of that. I thought the Trappists were the strictest Cicterercians. Do any orders literally follow the rule of St. Benedict these days?

I wasn't either. Apparently all the Trappist monesteries (16 in the US) are autonomous. I never really thought about it until I got there. There is an Abbot General in Rome though I guess and they do work hand in hand with the local Bishop, just not under his authority. They are reformed Cistercians, into Trappists, who adopted the rule of St. Benedict but to say that doesn't mean they follow it implicitly because some of it they have changed. Seems permissive to me but its a long history there. The history is extensive. I have seen it online somewhere but forget where I saw it atm. I think its findable though. I recall St. Benedict lived in the 3-4th century, I think the Trappists came about in France but I forget exactly when so won't guess. I want to say the 1400's but would have to check. That they are from France is probably why I felt at home there.

I couldn't speak for the Benedictine's themselves. This one near me claims to strict observance. I have read the rule of St. Benedict and didn't think it was that hard or even that different there at the monestery from what I saw but the rule itself would be far from the whole picture I suppose as thats failry brief and they have their own Cistercian/Trappist statutes. There is no man made perfection. No use looking for it. ;)

In addition to "The Seven Story Mountain", by Thomas Merton, which I know you said you'd also read, another one I lived was "O Holy Mountain", by a Catholic monk visiting an Eastern Orthodox mountain known for all of it's monasteries. The gentleman's name who wrote the second book escapes me at the moment, but it is a good one if you can find it. :)

Do you mean he wrote about Mt. Athos?

I actually like the upcoming changes to the mass translation. I think they will lend the liturgy more an aura of majesty and tradition. The current translation is a bit utilitarian, in my view, and seems a bit too "everyday", in some respects.

The current mass translation reminds me a lot of the NAB, and the newer one coming down the pike more of the NRSV. I know that sounds a little odd to say, because the new translation of the mass is considered to lean more conservative (if anything) and the NRSV is considered to lean more liberal (if anything), but both seem tied to the principle of using fairly literal but very poetic majestic traditional yet fully modern language. They are actually the same in more ways than they are different, even though they seem to appeal to two different "audiences" (i.e. the people who like one rarely like the other). I find I'm like that with a lot of things -- my favorites in terms of a lot of stuff in general in life are things you wouldn't expect the same person to like.

I trust it will all work out in the end. :)
 
Upvote 0

Fish and Bread

Dona nobis pacem
Jan 31, 2005
14,109
2,389
✟60,685.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Do you mean he wrote about Mt. Athos?

Yup, that's the place he visited -- for a year, if I recall correctly. I think he was the first Catholic monk to be allowed to stay there for so long living amongst the Orthodox monks, and saying private masses for himself, since the Great Schism. It took until the 20th century. He wasn't a Trappist like Merton, I forget which order he was in exactly. Great book, though.
 
Upvote 0

JoabAnias

Steward of proportionality- I Cor 13:1, 1 Tim 3:15
Supporter
Nov 26, 2007
21,200
3,283
✟82,874.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Yup, that's the place he visited -- for a year, if I recall correctly. I think he was the first Catholic monk to be allowed to stay there for so long living amongst the Orthodox monks, and saying private masses for himself, since the Great Schism. It took until the 20th century. He wasn't a Trappist like Merton, I forget which order he was in exactly. Great book, though.

Thats what I thought. Thats an interesting place to say the least.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JimR-OCDS

God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love
Oct 28, 2008
18,341
3,284
The Kingdom of Heaven
Visit site
✟185,132.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
FYI, Monasteries, such as the Trappist, don't have kneelers because they follow the posture for prayer, as the desert fathers of the East used, which is standing.

Also, Centering Prayer was mentioned. Centering Prayer is part of the Trappist spirituality because it too, originates from the desert fathers see below;

Centering Prayer - A Gift From the Desert
From Centering Prayer by Basil Pennington, pp.25-37
A gift from the desert

Jim
 
Upvote 0

Fish and Bread

Dona nobis pacem
Jan 31, 2005
14,109
2,389
✟60,685.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Also, Centering Prayer was mentioned. Centering Prayer is part of the Trappist spirituality because it too, originates from the desert fathers see below;

Centering Prayer - A Gift From the Desert
From Centering Prayer by Basil Pennington, pp.25-37
A gift from the desert

Hey, I think that is the guy who wrote the book about Mt. Athos I was talking about! I think the book was published with his first initial M, though -- M. Basil Pennington. This is all if I am remembering correctly, I'm not 100% sure. :)
 
Upvote 0

JoabAnias

Steward of proportionality- I Cor 13:1, 1 Tim 3:15
Supporter
Nov 26, 2007
21,200
3,283
✟82,874.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
FYI, Monasteries, such as the Trappist, don't have kneelers because they follow the posture for prayer, as the desert fathers of the East used, which is standing.

Also, Centering Prayer was mentioned. Centering Prayer is part of the Trappist spirituality because it too, originates from the desert fathers see below;

Jim

What do you mean "posture for prayer" and there were kneelers there, just not everywhere.

Thats a new term on me.

I have nothing against centering prayer per se', just what some new agers have tried to do with it. I didn't check that book in the gift shop out for problems though. I think we had this discussion before.

I am sure the simple form is what the monks do and I hope its not translated into new age errors in a monastery. I would doubt it was though. They are quite wise. It could be debated what some think of centering prayer is actually what the Fathers did.

In fact, I attribute calming my my mind to helping not only my contemplative prayer life and clarity of thought but also to be very healing and beneficial for things like needless anxiety and insomnia.

Trying to empty needless anxiety and distracting thoughts from my mind during prayer was first recommended to me by a Franciscan Friar back in the late 90's by saying Jesus to myself when ever stray thoughts would creep in. I have since recommended it to others, especially those who seem to be under stress or anxiety. I have never tried to enter into a "higher" plane of consciousness. ;) It wouldn't work on me anyway. I'd be just as dumb and further from God when I came out of it :D I am one of those types that can't be hypnotized. ^_^
 
Upvote 0

JimR-OCDS

God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love
Oct 28, 2008
18,341
3,284
The Kingdom of Heaven
Visit site
✟185,132.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
JoabAnias;

What do you mean "posture for prayer" and there were kneelers there, just not everywhere.

In the East, the proper posture for prayer is, standing. It goes back to ancient Judaism. At the Trappist Monastery where I go on retreat, St. Josephs in Spencer, there are no kneeler's, except in the visitors section. At Mass, the monks do not kneel, neither do the retreatants, who are behind them. If you did, you wouldn't be able to see the altar.

The kneeler's are probably used for other times of prayer, in particular, Benediction, when they do kneel.



I have nothing against centering prayer per se', just what some new agers have tried to do with it. I didn't check that book in the gift shop out for problems though. I think we had this discussion before.

New Agers pollute most of what they've taken from all areas of spirituality and twist it into their own purpose. They've taken parts of the Mass, the Rosary, and things from Eastern Religions, and are no longer the same as the original.


I am sure the simple form is what the monks do and I hope its not translated into new age errors in a monastery. I would doubt it was though. They are quite wise. It could be debated what some think of centering prayer is actually what the Fathers did.

Fr Merton, Fr Keating and Fr Pennington, who were the first to teach the contemplative method of pray what is now called Centering Prayer, were using this method of prayer long before the New Age movement even became a thought. As I have shown in the link, it comes from the desert monastic fathers. The term "Centering Prayer," comes from St. John of the Cross. He uses the term frequently throughout his writing, especially in the "Living Flame of Love."

In fact, I attribute calming my my mind to helping not only my contemplative prayer life and clarity of thought but also to be very healing and beneficial for things like needless anxiety and insomnia.

But Centering Prayer is not only for quieting the mind, but opening yourself up to contemplation. It is being in the presence of God, who dwells within.

Centering Prayer, is totally Christ centered. As St. John of the Cross says, God is the Center.

Jim
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JimR-OCDS

God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love
Oct 28, 2008
18,341
3,284
The Kingdom of Heaven
Visit site
✟185,132.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Hey, I think that is the guy who wrote the book about Mt. Athos I was talking about! I think the book was published with his first initial M, though -- M. Basil Pennington. This is all if I am remembering correctly, I'm not 100% sure. :)

Thats Fr Pennington

Books by and about Fr. Basil Pennington at St. Joseph’s Abbey (Spencer) from Monastery Greetings

Father Pennington died a few years ago, from complications he received in a car accident.

I use to see him at St. Joseph's Abbey. He was an amazing man. He stood about 6'5" and had pure white hair and beard. His eyes were a soft blue, and he spoke as a man who was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Jim
 
Upvote 0

JoabAnias

Steward of proportionality- I Cor 13:1, 1 Tim 3:15
Supporter
Nov 26, 2007
21,200
3,283
✟82,874.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
JoabAnias;
In the East, the proper posture for prayer is, standing. It goes back to ancient Judaism. At the Trappist Monastery where I go on retreat, St. Josephs in Spencer, there are no kneeler's, except in the visitors section. At Mass, the monks do not kneel, neither do the retreatants, who are behind them. If you did, you wouldn't be able to see the altar.

The kneeler's are probably used for other times of prayer, in particular, Benediction, when they do kneel.

Oh yea, if you had said EC desert fathers it would have clicked with me what you meant. Thanks for elaborating. That makes more sense. I am a western Latiner though and love to kneel. ;)
New Agers pollute most of what they've taken from all areas of spirituality and twist it into their own purpose. They've taken parts of the Mass, the Rosary, and things from Eastern Religions, and are no longer the same as the original.
I agree and there in can lay the problem. Discerning the authentic from the defiled. Personally I think the founder took it a bit to far and reaches a point where it becomes superflous to what the deposit of faith has to offer and approves of in way of sanctification.

Fr Merton, Fr Keating and Fr Pennington, who were the first to teach the contemplative method of pray what is now called Centering Prayer, were using this method of prayer long before the New Age movement even became a thought. As I have shown in the link, it comes from the desert monastic fathers. The term "Centering Prayer," comes from St. John of the Cross. He uses the term frequently throughout his writing, especially in the "Living Flame of Love."

Yup, knew all that. But I am more comfortable keeping a safe distance from the eastern religions influence if you know what I mean. I believe in holding to the good in all things but a explicit heterodox uniatism I do not. ;)

But Centering Prayer is not only for quieting the mind, but opening yourself up to contemplation. It is being in the presence of God, who dwells within.

Centering Prayer, is totally Christ centered. As St. John of the Cross says, God is the Center.

Jim
Thats what I meant by what I said too. I hope it came across that way. In fact, I gave some examples of its orthodox use as I know it earlier today in another thread.

In this ecumenical internet environment though, I think its important to always try and give as broad a picture as possible, which includes what to be leery of. So as not to inadvertently lead someone into the new age abuses without the tools to recognize and avoid them. Sorry if that puts anyone off.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

lucyclaire

Regular Member
Nov 18, 2007
194
33
✟8,018.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Greens
Cardinal Turcotte opinion is more in line with the majority of Bishops than against.

Recently, its only the few conservative Bishops who have been heard.

My guess is that the silent majority like Cardinal Turcotte, after the scandal in Brazil, are going to start speaking up. Especially as they see conservative Catholics being drawn in by right-wing groups with extremist ideologies.

Jim


Actually in the Catholic Press, have mostly been disgusted by the ex-communication of that mother and the treatment of that little girl in Brazil.. The Tablet especially it did alot to calm my anger over the case.. also this man did... Prelate Denounces Lack of Mercy in Brazil Abortion : Immaculate Heart of Mary’s Hermitage Report

In my country abortion isn't an election issue, it isn't a party issue and Priests don't tell us who to vote for, just to keep the far-right out such as the BNP.
 
Upvote 0

JoabAnias

Steward of proportionality- I Cor 13:1, 1 Tim 3:15
Supporter
Nov 26, 2007
21,200
3,283
✟82,874.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
In my country abortion isn't an election issue, it isn't a party issue and Priests don't tell us who to vote for, just to keep the far-right out such as the BNP.

Yea we know. Whats your morality based on?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Status
Not open for further replies.