Is there two Catholic Churches ?

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Fish and Bread

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The NRSV sounds like a good translation.

It is my favorite. If you are looking for a bible and can get your hands on a NRSV-Catholic Edition (There are several editions, so make sure you look for the Catholic one), I highly recommend it. The scholarship is excellent, and it is very true to the source materials. It is also written in fully modern language, but at a higher reading level than many popular bibles (Which allows for more complexity of meaning to be conveyed), and in a very poetic and majestic style that has lineage in the King James Bible and it's descendents while still rendering things fairly literally in many cases.

It's not perfect, but it's the best I've seen. And it has the approval of the President of the USCCB (US bishops) for non-liturgical use right on the copyright page.
 
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JoabAnias

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lmao, Joab, we haven't rejected the GIRM. We aren't American, so we don't use the American GIRM.

We aren't writing a liberal GIRM and we didn't reject one already. Canada is using the last GIRM we received, from the 80s or 90s. The new one comes out late this year/next year. We are also getting a brand new translation of the Mass that is more faithful to the Latin, implemented in 2010. (I have a copy of the Canadian GIRM and the new Mass translation.)

Just because we're slower with translations and revisions because of the language thing doesn't mean we're trying to do something wrong here.

No, the CCCB's own site says the GIRM is not implimented. I know whats going on there. Its the same everywhere. ;)
 
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JoabAnias

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There are different kinds of inclusive language. Certainly calling God the Father "mother" or "she" would be revisionist.

Thats exactly what they did and were after up there for years. Here to for a while.

There are orders who have invalidated baptisms because of those errors.

Its basically a radical modernist agenda just as is female ordination and gay marriage.
 
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Gwendolyn

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Poor Canada is in a state of free for all. Europe is worse.

Were you aware that the CCCB has rejected the GIRM since it came out:
http://www.cccb.ca/site/content/view/154/1063/lang,eng/

Joab, did you read that link?

There is nothing about rejection.

That link talks about how we need a French and English translation that the IECL and the French-language equivalent has completed, and then how the Vatican needs to approve it.

Canada never rejected the GIRM. We have been sending translations back-and-forth with Rome in order to fine tune them.

I know someone on the ICEL committee. This is exactly what has been happening - we send a translation to Rome, they say, "Hmm, how about translating it this way instead". They send it back. We say, "What about this way?" and it keeps going until all are satisfied in both English and French. We have to ensure that both translations match up as well. We can't just take a GIRM from France, for example, because things are different in that country and the norms will be different.

The translations have been completed and the GIRM will be implemented in 2009 or 2010.

Americans had their GIRM faster because you only needed an English translation. Your norms are also slightly different from ours. Just because we speak the same language - English - doesn't mean that all the norms will be identical. That doesn't make America the shining star and Canada a decrepit mess.

We are also receiving a new English translation of the Mass in 2010, which is more faithful to the original Latin.

I have a copy of the Canadian GIRM and the new translation of the Mass. Somewhere. My priest sent them to me awhile ago because he knows I like liturgy.

And, for the record, lay "ministers" aren't vested, and won't be.
 
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Gwendolyn

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No, the CCCB's own site says the GIRM is not implimented. I know whats going on there. Its the same everywhere. ;)

See my above post.

"Not implemented" is not the same as "rejected".

We were waiting on translations. Not giving Rome the finger.
 
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Gwendolyn

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Thats exactly what they did and were after up there for years. Here to for a while.

There are orders who have invalidated baptisms because of those errors.

Its basically a radical modernist agenda just as is female ordination and gay marriage.

What? Are you talking about the lectionary translations?

I can tell you, with complete certainty, that those sorts of things have never, ever appeared in the texts at Mass or baptisms here. I have never, not once in my entire life of going to Mass, heard any mention of mother god or anything.

Where in the world are you getting this information? Are you Canadian? If so, what in the world kind of parish have you been attending?
 
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JoabAnias

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What? Are you talking about the lectionary translations?

I can tell you, with complete certainty, that those sorts of things have never, ever appeared in the texts at Mass or baptisms here. I have never, not once in my entire life of going to Mass, heard any mention of mother god or anything.

Where in the world are you getting this information? Are you Canadian? If so, what in the world kind of parish have you been attending?

They may not have at your parish but they did appear on the whole continent in certain places before the Holy See got a handle on the inclusive language in the lectionary back in the mid 90's.

If it wasn't there, what exactly do you think the Holy See condemned?

Don't doubt it. I know its not something you want to hear but its the fact.

Not all Catholics are as faithful and obedient as you are.

I saw modernist infiltrations in a 150 year old monastery just last week. Don't feel bad.

Why would I have to be Canadian to know whats going on in the rest of the world?

I think your taking this personal. You wouldn't want that to put you in a place of defending dissent would you?
 
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Gwendolyn

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I thought you meant this stuff was going on NOW, like it was widespread, and I was like, "What? But... I keep up on these things!" lol.

If it happened in the 90s, then yes, I definitely believe it. There's been a crackdown, though, like you mentioned.

I was just totally confused, given the fact that I keep up on liturgical stuff that's happening with the CCCB and all. My priest, over the last two years, has sent me copies of the translations as they've been tweaked because he knows I'm interested as well. 3 or 4 years ago, when I was volunteering with lifeteen, I got my hands on a Canadian GIRM in progress because of the going up around the altar stuff - and was glad to see that there was explicit mention of that not being allowed.

I got vocal about the kids going around the altar but was told that since we didn't have an updated GIRM, it wasn't a big deal. Other people started hearing about it and saw it at Mass and wrote to the bishop and he told the parishes to cut it out. So they did.

Once the GIRM comes, hopefully things will be much clearer and bishops will enforce it better. I'm just glad my bishop stepped up to the plate in that particular instance.

Anyway, I know a guy on the ICEL committee. He organised the tridentine mass apostolate in my city and runs/participates in the New Liturgical Movement website (if you do not know of it, it's a site about all things liturgical - old school ;) ). He's about as orthodox as you can get, so I have faith that the translations will be in good hands with guys like him working on them.
 
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JoabAnias

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I thought you meant this stuff was going on NOW, like it was widespread, and I was like, "What? But... I keep up on these things!" lol.

If it happened in the 90s, then yes, I definitely believe it. There's been a crackdown, though, like you mentioned.

I was just totally confused, given the fact that I keep up on liturgical stuff that's happening with the CCCB and all. My priest, over the last two years, has sent me copies of the translations as they've been tweaked because he knows I'm interested as well. 3 or 4 years ago, when I was volunteering with lifeteen, I got my hands on a Canadian GIRM in progress because of the going up around the altar stuff - and was glad to see that there was explicit mention of that not being allowed.

I got vocal about the kids going around the altar but was told that since we didn't have an updated GIRM, it wasn't a big deal. Other people started hearing about it and saw it at Mass and wrote to the bishop and he told the parishes to cut it out. So they did.

Once the GIRM comes, hopefully things will be much clearer and bishops will enforce it better. I'm just glad my bishop stepped up to the plate.

Anyway, I know a guy on the ICEL committee. He organised the tridentine mass apostolate in my city and runs/participates in the New Liturgical Movement website (if you do not know of it, it's a site about all things liturgical - old school ;) ). He's about as orthodox as you can get, so I have faith that the translations will be in good hands with guys like him working on them.

Yes it will be good for CA to have norms of her own.

It will be interesting to see what differences they contain.

Its been 10 years now. As I saw it at the time, the problem was modernist errors not wanting to give in to what the Holy See approved.

The same thing has happened all over. I can drive a mile and see it. ;)

On the lectionary though, that was just approved last year. Imo, there should never be that kind of opposition to the Holy See.

I hear it at every level though. From my own family to the Bishops themselves. I find it sad because I know where it leads.
 
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Gwendolyn

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Yes it will be good for CA to have norms of her own.

It will be interesting to see what differences they contain.

Its been 10 years now. As I saw it at the time, the problem was modernist errors not wanting to give in to what the Holy See approved.

The same thing has happened all over. I can drive a mile and see it. ;)

It's so depressing :( I just wish people would stop trying to make the Church conform to their ideals, and realise that it is we who need a change of heart...

Sorry if I sounded like I was getting angry. I wasn't. Confused, given the stuff I know about the GIRM. I do think it's weird that things have moved so slowly, but... whatever it takes in order to get a faithful, accurate translation, I suppose.
 
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JoabAnias

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See my above post.

"Not implemented" is not the same as "rejected".

We were waiting on translations. Not giving Rome the finger.


^_^ That was an excuse. It was the modernists stalling for additions. ;)
 
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JoabAnias

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It's so depressing :( I just wish people would stop trying to make the Church conform to their ideals, and realise that it is we who need a change of heart...

Sorry if I sounded like I was getting angry. I wasn't. Confused, given the stuff I know about the GIRM. I do think it's weird that things have moved so slowly, but... whatever it takes in order to get a faithful, accurate translation, I suppose.

Don't cha know, its the flesh that tries to conform the Church to it. I don't think it can be stopped. Its helpful to understand it though. :)
 
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Gwendolyn

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^_^ That was an excuse. It was the modernists stalling for additions. ;)

lol.

Could be, but Rome won't let that win out in the end.

I feel like if a particular country kept sending translations back with the same suggestions, Rome would just be like, "No, implement this now, since you've taken so long, or you will be in trouble."

Practical things like this make me glad for a centralised authority - no one can try to sneak things into official documents like this. Everything has to be approved.
 
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JoabAnias

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Joab, did you read that link?
Of course I did.

I don't see this:

The following steps are necessary prior to the complete implementation of the revised GIRM in Canada:
  • <LI style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">The CCCB is asking the International Commission on English in the Liturgy (ICEL) and the Commission internationale francophone pour les traductions et la liturgie (CIFTL) to prepare official English and French translations of the text. <LI style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">The bishops of Canada (French and English Sectors) will vote on the translated texts. <LI style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">The translated texts will be sent to Rome for the recognitio of the Holy See.
  • Once recognitio is received, bishops and pastors will complete the process of implementing the revised GIRM

as anything more than double speak to stall so modernists can seek the liberal changes they want. A couple I already posted.

It amounts to rejection of the norms until they can be conformed to what they want.

That shows you how far the conference (majority) is/was out of touch with the Holy See.

Just as the Cardinals statements here that fail to conform to the CCC or the Popes actual words. Its all revisionist heterodoxy that continues to get further and further from the Pillars.

Especially when its advocating for contraception and abortion as the Cardinal appears to be. If thats what he really said that is and I have my doubts about the source and or the context.

See how modernism works? It tells you lies long enough until you start to actually believe them.

Those lies never line up with Christ word or His Church though.
 
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Fish and Bread

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I've read it before. Don't believe me if you don't want.

It's not that I don't trust you, I just don't necessarily trust the websites where you find this stuff sometimes. :) It's also possible that you and I might have two different interpretations of the same material, so that's another reason I sometimes ask for sources, so I can digest them and interpret them for myself.

No offense here, I just wish the mods would correct the OP to "Are there...." to reflect the plural. :blush:

I think we can all agree on that one! :)

I saw modernist infiltrations in a 150 year old monastery just last week.

This is interesting. What sort of things did you see?
 
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Gwendolyn

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Oh, now I understand how you came to that conclusion, Joab. Thank you for explaining. I still do think that the translation thing played a large role in the delay, though. After all, we do still receive the documents in Latin and then have to come up with parallel, accurate, faithful translations in English & French. It is a pretty hefty task, ensuring that all the nuances are captured.
 
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hawko

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My understanding is that there have been agreed upon revisions to the NRSV (Which is the translation the Canadians use) for lectionary use that bring it into compliance with current Vatican policy on liturgical use of scripture. This puts it into the same category as the NAB (Used in the US), which as sold to the public wouldn't be able to be used in the lectionary, but which has had revisions done for use in the lectionary. That's why folks might notice some slight differences between the personal copy they have of either translation and what they hear at mass on Sundays.

I have been a Lector for more than 25 years now, (in the United States), so I am probably more familiar with the Sunday readings than most people. What I have noticed a couple of years ago, is a subtle translation change in the lectionary. The lectionary now uses inclusive language, which I have observed in many cases has changed the entire translation of the scripture meaning.
This is one way that liberal thinking has affected the church in a negative way.
 
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