Is there two Catholic Churches ?

[hawko]

Is there two Catholic Churches ? This article makes me wonder.
Anymore, there seems to be a clear dividing line between members of the catholic Church.
Those who opposes the teachings of the church, and those who live their lives by them.



Montreal Cardinal: "I am against abortion, but I can understand that in certain cases,
there is no other choice than to practice it."



By Tim Waggoner
MONTREAL, April 14, 2008 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Over the Easter weekend, Le Devoir newspaper published a story based on an interview with Cardinal Jean-Claude Turcotte of Montreal, during which the Cardinal contradicted the teachings of Catholic Church on abortion and condoms.
In the interview Cardinal Turcotte, as quoted by Le Devoir, compared abortion to killing in self-defense, effectively equating the unborn child with a violent aggressor. "Personally, I am against murder," he said, "but can understand that sometimes, when someone is being attacked, they need to kill someone in self-defense. I am against abortion, but I can understand that in certain cases, there is no other choice than to practice it."
Turcotte made the comments in the context of addressing the announcement of the excommunication of those involved in the abortion of the twins of a nine-year-old Brazilian girl. He called the move by Brazilian Archbishop Cardoso of Recife, who had announced the excommunication, a "clumsy move."
Turcotte had also criticized the excommunications earlier, in a statement released in March, in which he said that the situation in Brazil called for a more "evangelical" approach.
Turcotte had said he was "pleased" to learn that the bishops' conference of Brazil had distanced themselves from their fellow in Recife.
During the recent interview, Turcotte also addressed the controversy over Pope Benedict's remark against condoms during his recent trip to Africa. According to Cardinal Turcotte, it would be "ridiculous" to suggest that the Pope said condoms should not be used.
"Essentially, the pope said that it took two things to fight this disease, the means, but also a change of mentality. He pronounced this sentence to show that condoms were not in and of themselves the perfect solution; we took his words out of context and all this was largely amplified," said Cardinal Turcotte.
"As if the pope had said that condoms should not be used. This is ridiculous! When someone has AIDS, it is his or her responsibility to protect the people with whom he or she has intercourse."
To express concern contact:
Congregation for the Bishops
Giovanni Battista Re, Cardinal, Prefect
Francesco Monterisi, Secretary
Palazzo della Congregazioni,
00193 Roma,
Piazza Pio XII, 10
Phone: 06.69.88.42.17
Fax: 06.69.88.53.03

His Eminence Jean-Claude Turcotte
Archbishop of Montréal
seccard@diocesemontreal.org(e-mail address hidden)
514-925-4300
See full article here:
Rencontre avec le cardinal Turcotte - L'Église est en quête d'un équilibre entre le dogme et la pastorale
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[Fantine]

No, there aren't two Catholic Churches, but, just as in any organization with over a billion members, there might be some, even in leadership positions, who express their individual opinions.

Do you think the viability of the Church is threatened by one Cardinal who expresses an individual opinion?

I imagine that when the Cardinals get together in Rome behind closed doors, they discuss many, many issues, and have many, many different opinions.

When you are as empathetic an individual as this Cardinal probably is, it is difficult to look at morality in a vacuum, even though we all know intellectually that we should.

And so, for one moment, he showed his humanity and his empathy and his real feelings, and left his intellectual belief that morality exists in a vacuum behind. It was just one moment, and one moment doesn't create two churches.

 

[JoabAnias]

The linked article is in French?

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion.
This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion
willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish. God,
the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life,
and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves.
Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception:
abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.

2370 .... to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil:

 

[Antigone]

The linked article is in French?

It says roughly the same, it just offers more background and nuance.

 

[FullyMT]

No, the Church is One. However, the members of the Church on earth are both sinners and saints.

 

[Antigone]

No, the Church is One. However, the members of the Church on earth are both sinners and saints.

I think locally, different 'trends' are going around. I've always found the Dutch Catholic church to be far less politically conservative than the American Catholic church.

 

[JoabAnias]

I think locally, different 'trends' are going around. I've always found the Dutch Catholic church to be far less politically conservative than the American Catholic church.

How sad. The Church is shrinking.

 

[Antigone]

How sad. The Church is shrinking.

I don't think that's sad at all. Different cultures have different opinions. The central tenets are still the same, but it's a lot harder to get the message across when you're talking about something that your parishioners can't relate to. I live in a very liberal country - there'd be no-one left in the church if they'd go full-on politically conservative. That doesn't mean the message changes, but the focus does.

 

[benedictaoo]

No hawko there isn't but one Church but that Church is becoming smaller everyday and much harder to recognize, and the remnant is emerging and only the strong truly faithful will survive of both Catholic and Protestants.

I'm sorry but this is just a simple case of a sign of the times. It's time for the true faithful to unite and pray against the evil that is apparent and on the move.

 

[JoabAnias]

I don't think that's sad at all. Different cultures have different opinions. The central tenets are still the same, but it's a lot harder to get the message across when you're talking about something that your parishioners can't relate to. I live in a very liberal country - there'd be no-one left in the church if they'd go full-on politically conservative. That doesn't mean the message changes, but the focus does.

I think its sad because its schism.

Its rather simple and your right.

The message is the same.

Its in the CCC already quoted.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Cardinal Turcotte opinion is more in line with the majority of Bishops than against.

Recently, its only the few conservative Bishops who have been heard.

My guess is that the silent majority like Cardinal Turcotte, after the scandal in Brazil, are going to start speaking up. Especially as they see conservative Catholics being drawn in by right-wing groups with extremist ideologies.

Jim

 

[JoabAnias]

Cardinal Turcotte opinion is more in line with the majority of Bishops than against.

Recently, its only the few conservative Bishops who have been heard.

My guess is that the silent majority like Cardinal Turcotte, after the scandal in Brazil, are going to start speaking up.
Especially as they see conservative Catholics being drawn in by right-wing groups with extremist ideologies.

Jim

Why do you think the smoke is the majority?

I think its about half.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Why do you think the smoke is the majority?

I think its about half.

I'm basing my opinion on statements others, who are on the inside, say, and also in light of the fact that the USCCB couldn't get a majority consensus, on what to do about pro-choice politicians receiving Holy Communion.



Jim

 

[JoabAnias]

I'm basing my opinion on statements others, who are on the inside, say.

Jim

I am too, and on the votes of the bishops themselves in synod and conference.

What this Cardinal is saying is understandable from his perspective but not practical as a solution.

Are you aware of the disobedience of the CCCB?

 

[Anygma]

after the release of Humanae Vitae, the conferrence of canadian bishops did not assent to those teaching and their response was to leave the matter to our good conscience... do what you feel is right! so in that light, what cardinal Turcotte is saying is not surprising. liberalism and relativism is insidious

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I am too, and on the votes of the bishops themselves in synod and conference.

What this Cardinal is saying is understandable from his perspective but not practical as a solution.

Are you aware of the disobedience of the CCCB?

How are the CCCB in disobedience? Has the Vatican made such an accusation?

Jim

 

[JoabAnias]

How are the CCCB in disobedience? Has the Vatican made such an accusation?

Jim

Yes the Holy See has.

The CCCB continues to fail to assent to the Holy See's instruction on the usuage of lectionary the last I knew.

Check it out.

 

[benedictaoo]

after the release of Humanae Vitae, the conferrence of canadian bishops did not assent to those teaching and their response was to leave the matter to our good conscience... do what you feel is right! so in that light, what cardinal Turcotte is saying is not surprising. liberalism and relativism is insidious

Fer real?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

after the release of Humanae Vitae, the conferrence of canadian bishops did not assent to those teaching and their response was to leave the matter to our good conscience... do what you feel is right! so in that light, what cardinal Turcotte is saying is not surprising. liberalism and relativism is insidious

The commission which Paul VI put together, to study artificial birth control, came to the same conclusion, and the Pope was going to go along with them, until he reviewed it with some others inside the Vatican.
They warned that if he went along with the commission's recommendation, to ease restrictions on ABC, that it would undermined the authority of the Papacy. So, he rejected it. It was the reaction to the rejection of the commission's recommendation, that Paul VI, wrote Humane Vitae.

I was surprised to learn recently, that Humanae Vitae, isn't infallible doctrine.

At any rate, the vast majority of Catholics, do what the CCB's recommend, they use their own conscience.

Jim

 

[benedictaoo]

Oh Lord have mercy... Lord have mercy.

I personally do not know how much more liberalism in the Church i can take. It is a diseases in the church that is eating us alive.