Is the Church Raptured in Revelation 4

[prewrath]

If John is a picture of the church being raptured in Revelation 4; then who is the multitude in chapter 19 coming back with Christ?

 

[pdudgeon]

the multitude is everyone who is already in heaven--the Church (Bride of Christ), everyone from the OT who was dead and was freed by Christ Himself from Hades after He died on the cross, (they are the ones who rose from their graves, showed themselves to many people, and ascended with Him to Heaven when He went back,) and the martyrs under the altar who have been promised their justice by God Himself.

So yes, that would be a lot of people.

Who is left to receive Him? Those who accepted Christ, and who remained true to Him on Earth.

Who is left to fight against Him? Satan and his followers who will all be younger
than everyone else.
those will all be defeated.

 

[Jerico Miles]

It does include many of that group above but the real group of people the bible refers to are those in Rev 7:14.

Revelation 7:14 (CSB) I said to him, "Sir, you know." Then he told me: These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 7:14 (DBY) And I said to him, My lord, *thou* knowest. And he said to me, These are they who come out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 7:14 (ESV) I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 7:14 (KJV) And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest . And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Jerico Miles]

the multitude is everyone who is already in heaven--the Church (Bride of Christ),

I had to reread everything you wrote a few more times till I realized what you really meant. It's correct, it's the church in heaven.

 

[Interplanner]

These things are not the construction of the material at all. Stick to ordinary-language letters to shape doctrine, not things found or silent in the Rev. There is so little on the rapture it is hardly worth being a Christian doctrine. The Thess material was about the 1st century, which we know from how urgent he spoke and that he referred to the standing temple.

 

[pdudgeon]

certainly He referred to the standing Temple, and that not a rock would be standing on another. The Emperor of Rome took care of that around 70 A>D>

and the martyrs I referred to are the same ones in Rev.7:14 that Jerico Miles referenced (quite nicely, i might add.)

 

[Jerico Miles]

certainly He referred to the standing Temple, and that not a rock would be standing on another. The Emperor of Rome took care of that around 70 A>D>

and the martyrs I referred to are the same ones in Rev.7:14 that Jerico Miles referenced (quite nicely, i might add.)

And I would say the same about your first post.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[BABerean2]

It does include many of that group above but the real group of people the bible refers to are those in Rev 7:14.

Revelation 7:14 (CSB) I said to him, "Sir, you know." Then he told me: These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 7:14 (DBY) And I said to him, My lord, *thou* knowest. And he said to me, These are they who come out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 7:14 (ESV) I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 7:14 (KJV) And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest . And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

When you come out of a room, it means you were in the room before.

If you come out of tribulation, then you were in tribulation before.


The rapture of the Church can be seen at Rev. 10:7.

The Church, the resurrection, the grafting in of the Gentiles, and the Bride of Christ are all called a "mystery" in the New Testament.




Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ at the 7th trumpet.


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[Interplanner]

If that mystery is the same as Eph 3:5 or Rom 16, then at the end of this body of Christ, without anything happening in Israel, the final day of judgement and the new creation occur. No millenium, nada Judaica.

 

[n2thelight]

The deception of the anti christ is the tribulation,and I can't for the life of me figure out why any professing christian would think to,or even want to escape...

This will be a time when the world needs us more than ever,to make a stand against the evil one...How do we do that,if we're not here....

The prophets did'nt want to escape,the apostles did'nt want to escape,nor did they....All the Christians who have and still are being persecuted did'nt escape....

What makes you all(rapturist)think that you will??????


Fear not those that can kill the body...So my question, what are you afraid of???

 

[Riberra]

The prophets did'nt want to escape,the apostles did'nt want to escape,nor did they....All the Christians who have and still are being persecuted did'nt escape....

What makes you all(rapturist)think that you will??????


Fear not those that can kill the body...So my question, what are you afraid of???

The pre-tribbers fears nothing about the tribulation and the antichrist future reign of terror against the Christians because they are sure that they will be rapture before all this happen.
Link:
We will not be there during the tribulation...a powerfull wishfull thinking.


They even enjoy the idea that the tribulation can happen "soon"... **

The wake up will be brutal when the real stuff will begin to happen and they realize that they are still there. **

** Note that I am not saying nor suggesting that the time is near.

Those things prophesied will happen in due time .... when God will allow it to happen !http://www.christianforums.com/t7865583/

 

[Bible2]

prewrath said in post 1:

Is the Church Raptured in Revelation 4

No, Revelation 4:1 refers only to John the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the 3rd heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the 1st century AD, just as 2 Corinthians 12:2 refers only to Paul the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the 3rd heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the 1st century AD. Neither verse refers to the future rapture of the church only as high as the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Also, no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3, but not mentioned again until Revelation 22, just as no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Romans 16, but not mentioned in Romans chapters 1 to 15. The reason that the word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3 is because those chapters refer to 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11).

The church in the general sense will definitely be in the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For believers will definitely be in it (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Also, just as the mistaken, pre-tribulation rapture view admits that Revelation chapters 19 to 22 include references to the church without using the specific word "church", so it should be able to admit that Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can include references to the church without using the specific word "church".

 

[Jerico Miles]

When you come out of a room, it means you were in the room before.

If you come out of tribulation, then you were in tribulation before.


The rapture of the Church can be seen at Rev. 10:7.

The Church, the resurrection, the grafting in of the Gentiles, and the Bride of Christ are all called a "mystery" in the New Testament.




Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ at the 7th trumpet.


.

BAB2, there's 14 mysteries in the whole bible. Do you know the nature of this mystery and what the mystery of Rev 10 & 11 covers?

This mystery surrounds the mystery to the Kingdom of God and the mystery of man's future. Do you understand how they correlate with each other and why it happens in the middle of the tribulation?

 

[BABerean2]

BAB2, there's 14 mysteries in the whole bible. Do you know the nature of this mystery and what the mystery of Rev 10 & 11 covers?

This mystery surrounds the mystery to the Kingdom of God and the mystery of man's future. Do you understand how they correlate with each other and why it happens in the middle of the tribulation?

It cannot be in the middle of the trib for two reasons.

1. There is no 7 year tribulation.
The Book of Revelation clearly states in several passages that it lasts for 3 1/2 years. You can add two of these passages together to get 7 years or you can take the 70th week of Daniel which was fulfilled in the first century and add a manmade gap, not mentioned by the angel Gabriel.
Both are a corruption of scripture.

2. At the 7th trumpet, the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ, forever.
End of story for this old, sin-cursed world.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Who Confirmed The Covenant?
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023


New Testament "mysteries" related to the Church.


1Co_15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Eph_3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph_3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Eph_5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Col_1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Col_4:3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

Rev_1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.



Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


.

 

[Straightshot]

Response to the OP

No, Revelation 4:1 is the accounting of the apostle John being called up to heaven and into the future to be shown the things "hereafter" still pending in advance .... both in heaven and upon the earth

His spirit was then returned to his body on the Greek Isle of Patmos where he was imprisoned

 

[Jerico Miles]

It cannot be in the middle of the trib for two reasons.

1. There is no 7 year tribulation.
The Book of Revelation clearly states in several passages that it lasts for 3 1/2 years. You can add two of these passages together to get 7 years or you can take the 70th week of Daniel which was fulfilled in the first century and add a manmade gap, not mentioned by the angel Gabriel.
Both are a corruption of scripture.

And it also said there will be 1290 days when the abomination of desolation occur at the middle of the week.

Daniel 9:27
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

Daniel 12:11
“And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.

2. At the 7th trumpet, the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ, forever.
End of story for this old, sin-cursed world.

BAB2, why don't you just throw out the window all the events in the second half of the tribulation: the 7 vials judgments, the 144,000 in the wilderness, the destruction of Mystery Babylon, the battle of Armageddon, the 100 pound hailstorm and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb because you can't figure out what and when happens so the only way to make your eschatology fit is by throwing out the window all that you don't understand or have a clue.

Pretty easy to make it all fit by simply ignoring everything right?

"Mary had a little...la...ahh?...lam....ahh?....end of story!"

No BAB2, she didn't have a Lama.

 

[Postvieww]

Rev4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

This passage does not describe a resurrection(rapture) nor does it picture, allude to or is a type of one. John went to heaven in the spirit, no more.

Rev 6: 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

These are “the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held” not a resurrected church.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

These are clothed with white robes just as those in Rev 6:11. What scriptural evidence can anyone show that this is group is any different than the souls of them slain in Rev 6:9. These are a specific group that came out of great tribulation, not a rapture resurrected church from the whole church age.

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If the above passage is a pretrib rapture proof as many proclaim who are those that “sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” If not the souls of those that have previously died in the Lord. Since they are obviously the souls of those gone on what scriptural evidence is there that these are any different than those mentioned in Rev 6:9 and 7:9 &13. This is a second coming passage not a pre-trib rapture.

1.There is no resurrected (raptured) church shown in heaven in the entire book of revelation.

2. There is no decription of the church being resurrected (raptured pre-trib) and taken to heaven in the book of Revelation.

3. There are detailed descriptions of judgements, antichrist, Armageddon, the return of Christ in glory to do battle, several mentions of judgement and resurrection of the dead (none of which are pre-trib) all are at the end, just as Jesus in the book of John said it would be. Why would an event as important as a pre-trib rapture be left out of the book that is to show us the “things which must be hereafter” Rev 4:1.

4. There is no pre-trib rapure clearly stated anywhere in scripture. It is only be dividing up and separating second coming passages and arbitrarily saying, some of those are pre-trib can one even began to support this false notion.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

On what basis would one assume these armies were previously resurrected when Rev. 6 says they were “the souls of them that were slain for the word of God”, the group in Rev 7 came out of “great tribulation” not the entire church age, those that come with Him in 1 Thess are “them also which sleep in Jesus” . Nowhere in scripture can we find Jesus returning to this earth with a previously resurrected (rapture) church.