Is the Church Raptured in Revelation 4

[Riberra]

Strangely when placed in context with verse 12 we see that Jesus is not talking about being taken out of the Earth (Pre-trib rapture) before the coming Tribulation,but about a promise for those who will overcome during the hour of temptation

This is already understood RB ..... taken refers to the unbelievers judgment

Bad choice of word then.I should have said Rev 3:10 does not mean *being removed from the Earth to Heaven before the Tribulation ( Pre-trib rapture)" as wrongly promoted by the pre-trib doctrine ...

This is already understood RB ..... taken refers to the unbelievers

As in Matthew 24:40-41
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Verse 42 refers to Jesus second coming.(Parousia)

But to keep from His coming judgment is what He means .... keep away from, not kept in

No, verse 10 say -from the hour of temptation-

Rev 3:10 .... ..I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation "
Keep away from does not imply being removed from the Earth to Heaven

There is nothing comforting to face beheading by the beast [1 Thessalonians 5:1-9]

1 Thessalonians 5:1-9 is about the resurrection of those who died in Christ who will happen upon Jesus second coming.

There are two kinds of believers on the earth today, those of the Lord's true ecclesia, and those who pretend

These will be kept away from [Revelation 3:10]

Like a warning on the road can kept away from a danger ...
Revelation 3:10 are for those who keep God warnings written in His Words from the Scripture...
Rev 3:8
for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
-Because they know what will happen to those who will fall away from their faith in Jesus during that time or at any time = loosing the salvation of their soul =resurrection to damnation in the lake of fire.-

Revelation 3: 7-12

7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.


10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

You cannot take away verse 12 and saying that it does not belong to what is addressed to the Church of Philadelphia as a request for the salvation of their soul.

 

[Straightshot]

Nay .... I don't buy your story RB

You will just have to wait and see how this will all shake out

Make certain that your are ready .... what is coming might catch you off guard

And your presumption that a true believer who knows the Lord's intent on the matter will fold "if" it does not happen is an excuse to promote your theology

There is not one of His ecclesia who would ever desert .... they know too much about what is coming

It will be those who are fence sitters and not ready who will cave in the coming tribulation because of their lack of dedication and knowledge .... the professing "church"is brim full of these today .... lukewarm .... uncommitted, drawn off by pied pipers, unlearned, and unfocused, not ready .... bottom line .... not saved in the first place

 

[Riberra]

Nay .... I don't buy your story RB

You will just have to wait and see how this will all shake out

Make certain that your are ready .... what is coming might catch you off guard

And your presumption that a true believer who knows the Lord's intent on the matter will fold "if" it does not happen is an excuse to promote your theology

There is not one of His ecclesia who would ever desert .... they know too much about what is coming

It will be those who are fence sitters and not ready who will cave in the coming tribulation because of their lack of dedication and knowledge .... the professing "church"is brim full of these today .... lukewarm .... uncommitted, drawn off by pied pipers, unlearned, and unfocused, not ready .... bottom line .... not saved in the first place

We known the pre-trib song,only those believing in the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine are learned and focused and ( spiritually )ready and saved ....

Definition of saved from the pre-trib rapture doctrine = Being removed from the Earth to Heaven for a seven years feast while the Tribulation will unfold on the Earth .Rather than meaning Salvation of the soul.

 

[Straightshot]

Do you want some singing lessons?

Most likely not

Carry on

 

[Riberra]

Do you want some singing lessons?

Most likely not

Carry on

Do you really believe that SAVED mean:
-being removed from the Earth to Heaven for a seven years feast while the Tribulation will unfold on the Earth.

Rather than meaning Salvation of the soul ?

 

[Straightshot]

No ..... the trip to immortality is just a benefit of the Lord's salvation .... do you think?

Your cleverness is about to run out of rebuttals RB .... I can see the end coming

 

[Riberra]

Do you really believe that SAVED mean:
-being removed from the Earth to Heaven for a seven years feast while the Tribulation will unfold on the Earth.

Rather than meaning Salvation of the soul ?

No ..... the trip to immortality is just a benefit of the Lord's salvation .... do you think?

A trip to immortality is quite a brand new principle ,are you kind enough to tell us more about this ... if possible backed from Scripture ?

 

[BABerean2]

Nay .... I don't buy your story RB

You will just have to wait and see how this will all shake out

Make certain that your are ready .... what is coming might catch you off guard

And your presumption that a true believer who knows the Lord's intent on the matter will fold "if" it does not happen is an excuse to promote your theology

There is not one of His ecclesia who would ever desert .... they know too much about what is coming

It will be those who are fence sitters and not ready who will cave in the coming tribulation because of their lack of dedication and knowledge .... the professing "church"is brim full of these today .... lukewarm .... uncommitted, drawn off by pied pipers, unlearned, and unfocused, not ready .... bottom line .... not saved in the first place

There was once a fifteen year old girl who believed that only some believers would be taken to heaven before the tribulation period and the rest would be left to endure the tribulation.

She said they were those that were Spirit-filled.

She wrote a letter to Pastor Edward Irving telling him about this "vision" she had of a partial rapture.

The year was 1830 and her name was Margaret Macdonald.

Come to think of it, I have heard this story before.

It came to be known as the "Secret Rapture".

Some today are still promoting her so-called "vision", which can be found in the link below.




Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

.

 

[Bible2]

Straightshot said in post 38:

There is nothing comforting to face beheading by the beast [1 Thessalonians 5:1-9]

Actually, there is. For Revelation 14:12-13 is the same idea as 1 Thessalonians 5:10-11, meaning obedient believers can have the Spirit's comfort at any time (John 14:15-17), in any tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:4-7), no matter whether they live or die.

-

Job should be looked to by obedient Christians as an example of patient endurance through suffering (James 5:11). Just as God allowed Satan to bring suffering to righteous Job (Job chapters 1-2), so God sometimes allows Satan to bring suffering to obedient Christians (Revelation 2:10). And during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Satan will be allowed to unleash his wrath against obedient Christians in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

By the power of Satan working against Job (Job 1:12), he first suffered the loss of his wealth and servants from murderous robbers (Job 1:14,15,17) and a natural disaster (Job 1:16), and suffered the death of all of his children in a natural disaster (Job 1:18-19). Then, again by the power of Satan working against him (Job 2:6), Job suffered the loss of his health (Job 2:7). But he remained patient through all of his loss and suffering, never cursing God because of it (Job 2:9-10, Job 1:20-22), but wholly trusting in God through it all (Job 13:15).

Because of this, God greatly rewarded Job after his suffering was over, giving him twice as much wealth as he had before (Job 42:10,12, Job 1:3) and the same number of children as he had before (Job 42:13, Job 1:2), and giving him a very long life (Job 42:16), so that he lived to see his grandchildren, great grandchildren, and great great grandchildren (Job 42:16). While he was still suffering, Job mistakenly thought that his suffering was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11), when in fact God had no wrath against him, for he was righteous in God's eyes (Job 1:1,8, Job 2:3). Instead, Job was suffering from the hand of Satan (Job 1:12, Job 2:7). Similarly, during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the suffering of obedient Christians won't be God's wrath against them, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:9,17, cf. Revelation 2:10).

God allowed Satan to bring loss and suffering to Job in order to prove that Job didn't love God just because God had made him wealthy and secure (Job 1:9-12) and healthy (Job 2:4-6), but that Job would continue to love and trust God even if all of his wealth, family, and health were stripped away from him. Indeed, Job would have continued to love God even if God had killed him (Job 13:15). This is the kind of love for God that Christians will need to have during the future tribulation. They will need to continue to love God even when he allows Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") to make war against Biblical Christians and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), stripping away all of their wealth and family and leading them away to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6). Christians must so love God and so trust him that they have no fear of suffering or death (Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15), knowing that even death will only bring their still-conscious souls into the presence of Jesus in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43).

Christians mustn't love their mortal lives to where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep from getting killed (Mark 8:35-38, John 12:25, Revelation 12:11), just as Christians mustn't love their families to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their families from starving or getting killed (Matthew 10:37, Luke 14:26). And Christians mustn't love their wealth to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their wealth from being taken away (Matthew 6:24; 1 Timothy 6:9-10). Jesus Christ requires Christians to forsake everything, even their own lives, for his sake (Luke 14:33, Luke 9:23, Matthew 10:38-39), just as he forsook everything, even his own life, for their sake (Philippians 2:6-8; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 1 Corinthians 15:3).

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).

Straightshot said in post 38:

These will be kept away from [Revelation 3:10]

The 7 epistles to 7 churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to 7 literal, first century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what is today western Turkey).

Revelation 3:10 meant that the literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) would be kept safe from a persecution which came upon all the Roman world during the time of the Roman emperor Domitian. For the apostle John saw his Revelation vision (Revelation 1:1) near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), and Domitian persecuted the church toward the end of his reign. The righteous, literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) had to suffer and die in that persecution over a period of 10 literal days (Revelation 2:10).

The 1st century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be taken out of the world to be kept safe from (Greek: "ek") that persecution. For, as Jesus prayed for the church in general: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from (ek) the evil" (John 17:15,20). Also, the 1st century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be removed from time itself or from the earth in order to be kept from the "hour" (or the "time") of that persecution, just as, for example, a student in a classroom who has been excused from taking a test doesn't have to be removed from time itself or from the classroom in order to be excused from that time of testing. For he can be made to sit at his desk reading during that time, which won't be a time of testing for him.

Also, the 1st century AD persecution of Revelation 3:10 (and Revelation 2:10) was only "world"-wide in the sense of the Roman "world" (cf. Luke 2:1). So the subsequent reference to those on the "earth" in Revelation 3:10 should be understood as those Christians living on the earth during that time in the Roman empire, as opposed to those Christians who had already died and gone to heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

 

[Bible2]

Straightshot said in post 38:

You say that no one can prove the keeping away from before

That's right, for nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That is why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the physical resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be physically resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Straightshot said in post 38:

A chance you will have to take if you insist on entry .....

Do you mean there will be only a partial rapture of the church, sometime before the 2nd coming, of only those in the church who are ready for the rapture by simply believing it is pre-tribulation? If so, note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture, that the entire church won't be raptured (gathered together) at the time of Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which is the time of Jesus' 2nd coming, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). For the need for believers to be ready for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:44, Matthew 25:10) doesn't have to do with whether or not they will be raptured at that time, but with whether or not they will lose their salvation at that time (e.g. Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

For some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

--

Straightshot said in post 42:

And your presumption that a true believer who knows the Lord's intent on the matter will fold "if" it does not happen is an excuse to promote your theology

There is not one of His ecclesia who would ever desert .... they know too much about what is coming

The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous, because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them, and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking the rapture was supposed to be pre-tribulation. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers completely unprepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything they are going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

-

As an analogy of this mental preparation, imagine some kids were at a summer camp, and their counselor told them: "Tomorrow, there is going to be a long, hard hike". The kids walked away and started talking among themselves. One of them said: "Well, he didn't say we all have to go on the hike, right?" And a second kid said: "And he didn't say we all have to go the whole distance". But a third kid said: "I'm pretty sure he meant the hike's whole distance is for all of us. He didn't say there's going to be a long, hard hike for only some of us, and a day of goofing off, or only a short, easy hike for others of us". But the first kid answered: "Nah, we don't have to go on that hike. I'm going fishing tomorrow". And the second kid answered: "We all don't have to go the whole distance". But the third kid answered: "Don't be so sure, you two. I'm going to bed early, so I'll be all fresh and ready for the whole distance of the hike".

The next day at the morning camp meeting, the first kid brought his fishing pole and was all set for a day of fishing. But the third kid brought his sturdy hiking boots and a big canteen of water, and was all mentally prepared for a long day of hard hiking. The counselor then told the kids: "Okay, in a few minutes, we're all going to start on the hike I told you about, so make sure you've got everything you need". The first kid felt sick to his stomach when he heard that. He dropped his fishing pole and sat down on the ground and started crying like a baby. He just couldn't imagine starting on a long, hard hike after he'd been all set for a day of just sitting around fishing. But he was forced to go on the whole hike anyway, and this made him and the second kid (who thought he wouldn't have to go the whole distance) so mad at the counselor that they grumbled against him to the other kids during the hike, cursing him out as a cruel taskmaster (cf. Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21).

But the third kid took the whole hike in stride (cf. Revelation 14:12, Revelation 13:10), and stuck up for the counselor the whole time, even though the third kid suffered awfully from blisters during the hike. The counselor, even though he was at the head of the hiking line, could overhear what the kids said behind him. And after the hike was over, he made sure to reward the third kid by giving him as a gift the counselor's own fishing pole, and by making sure the third kid was assigned day after day to only the most enviable camp duties, like getting to build and light the nightly campfire, and getting to make the evening camp announcements over the camp's PA system. But the counselor made sure to assign the first and second kids to the worst kitchen- and latrine-cleaning duties day after day.

 

[Bible2]

BABerean2 said in post 48:

Come to think of it, I have heard this story before.

It came to be known as the "Secret Rapture".

The mistaken, pre-tribulation rapture view feels that 1 Thessalonians 5:2 supports the idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation, secret coming of Jesus to rapture the church and begin the tribulation. But not all thieves in the night come secretly, like cat burglars. Some like to rob homes via what is called a home invasion, which is quite obvious, and can involve the thieves not only stealing, but also killing and destroying (John 10:10; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10, Revelation 19:7-21).

Jesus' coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2, Matthew 24:43-44, Revelation 16:15) doesn't mean he will come secretly. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trump of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16), "with a great sound of a trumpet" (Matthew 24:31). And "as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:27,43,44). "Behold, I come as a thief" (Revelation 16:15), "Behold, he cometh with clouds [1 Thessalonians 4:17]; and every eye shall see him" (Revelation 1:7).

Similarly, Jesus' coming as a thief in the night doesn't mean his coming is imminent. For he can't come until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2) means he will come even upon Christians when they aren't expecting him only if they stop watching (staying awake, spiritually) during the tribulation. Compare the if principle of Revelation 3:3. Also, some in the church will still be alive on the earth during the tribulation's final stage, still watching (staying awake, spiritually) for Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). So his 2nd coming won't overtake them like a thief (1 Thessalonians 5:4, Matthew 24:43).

Regarding Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief to the unsaved world, when it isn't expecting him (1 Thessalonians 5:2-4, Matthew 24:39), nothing requires the unsaved world will be expecting Jesus' 2nd coming after the tribulation. For during the tribulation, the unsaved world could come to believe his 2nd coming has already happened (Matthew 24:24-26).

That is, the unsaved people of the world will have no idea most of them are going to be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming until it happens (Matthew 24:37-39). For they could think the 2nd coming had already occurred with the coming into power of the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20), who could claim to be Jesus returned. And just as the people of the world shortly before Noah's flood, even though they could see or hear about Noah building his huge ark, no doubt rejected the idea that YHWH God had the power to actually cause a global flood which would kill them, so the people of the world at the end of the future tribulation could reject the idea that YHWH has the power to actually defeat them.

For during the tribulation's 2nd half, the world will see the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his fallen angels (Revelation 12:9), and the power Lucifer will give to the Antichrist to take over the entire earth (Revelation 13:4-8), and to utterly revile YHWH year after year without being destroyed (Revelation 13:5-6, Daniel 11:36), and to physically overcome and kill people in the church in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And the world will see the amazing miraculous powers which Lucifer will give to the Antichrist's False Prophet, by which he will be able to even call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone (Revelation 13:13, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

And near the end of the future tribulation, the world will see the Antichrist's defeat of YHWH's amazingly-powerful 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3-9), after which defeat the world will rejoice and make merry and send gifts to each other because the 2 witnesses had been sending plagues on the world (Revelation 11:10,6). And even though those plagues will be shortly followed by even more plagues from YHWH, poured out directly from heaven (Revelation 16, the tribulation's final stage), the people of the world won't lose their confidence that YHWH can still be defeated. For after almost all the plagues from heaven are over, the world will see the amazing miraculous powers of some unclean spirits, convincing the world's armies to gather together for a battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19). And so the world could come to that battle at the very end of the tribulation with the same careless attitude as some people at the start of the American Civil War, who held picnics at the expected first battleground of Bull Run/Manassas to watch the battle and what they expected to be a quick and easy victory.

 

[Postvieww]

Are the letters to the seven churches just that, or are they open letters to churches of all ages?

1. All letters are addressed to specific churches of that day.
2. Specific issues both good and bad were addressed to each church.
3. Specific people were addressed (Jezebel, Antipas).

On what authority are we allowed to pull out verses written to those churches and use them to support our man made doctrine? Example Rev 3:10

 

[Postvieww]

Rev 2: 10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

These believers in Smyrna suffered, were cast into prison, and were admonished to “be thou faithful unto death”. Their COMFORT was Jesus’s promise “I will give thee a crown of life”

 

[MoreCoffee]

If John is a picture of the church being raptured in Revelation 4; then who is the multitude in chapter 19 coming back with Christ?

Saint John is not a type of the church in revelation chapter four. He's a prophet receiving revelation from God and in his vision-prophecy he is taken up to heaven to see and hear what he must tell the church of God on Earth.

Revelation 4:1 NAB After this I had a vision of an open door to heaven, and I heard the trumpetlike voice that had spoken to me before, saying, Come up here and I will show you ...

It's all there in the text.

 

[iamlamad]

Saint John is not a type of the church in revelation chapter four. He's a prophet receiving revelation from God and in his vision-prophecy he is taken up to heaven to see and hear what he must tell the church of God on Earth.

Revelation 4:1 NAB After this I had a vision of an open door to heaven, and I heard the trumpetlike voice that had spoken to me before, saying, Come up here and I will show you ...

It's all there in the text.

I agree. It is extremely poor exegesis to say that Rev. 4:1 is in ANY WAY showing us the rapture of the church. Are people really that desperate to find the rapture in Revelation?

The truth is, John was not shown the rapture so did not directly write about it.

Prewrath wrote: "If John is a picture of the church being raptured in Revelation 4; then who is the multitude in chapter 19 coming back with Christ?" This question really does not make much sense. If the rapture took place any time before chapter 19, would it not make sense that it would be those raptured that would come back with Christ? Does not Jude hint of this? "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints" for the purpose of judgment.

Good job with your post, MoreCoffee.

 

[Straightshot]

"A trip to immortality is quite a brand new principle ,are you kind enough to tell us more about this ... if possible backed from Scripture ?"


You already know what I am talking about RB

 

[Straightshot]

"There was once a fifteen year old girl who believed that only some believers would be taken to heaven before the tribulation period and the rest would be left to endure the tribulation."

No .... all are tribulation bound, I have the copy

You have fallen for David MacPherson's hoax

 

[Straightshot]

"Are the letters to the seven churches just that, or are they open letters to churches of all ages?"


The Lord has finished with His evaluation .... the positives and negatives apply to the "church" ..... then and today .... and all can be applied

.... a way for Him to convey the truth of the matter .... the Asia Minor assemblies are examples

 

[Straightshot]

"It came to be known as the "Secret Rapture"."


The Lord's secret .... and only because He has not revealed the dating

It is no secret .... the scriptures are replete with the details .... revealed for all to read

 

[Straightshot]

"Do you mean there will be only a partial rapture of the church"


There is no such thing revealed .... those with out oil [the holy spirit] are not believers in the first place, but only profess [Mathew 25:1-13] and will not participate .... same as these [Revelation 3:15-19]