Is salvation basically a noetic change?
- Thread starter dms1972
- Start date
Open Heart
Well-Known Member
- Aug 3, 2014
- 18,521
- 4,393
- 62
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Seeker
- Marital Status
- Celibate
From your quote, it looks like he told you: it followed the colon. But you chopped it off in the quote.
Upvote
0
It was which part of that I was asking about. I am trying to bring my discussions to a close not follow them into two or three more directions.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
C S Lewis likened problem solving to doing a maths problem. The further you proceed down a wrong path at a fork, the more time and energy you have to expend returning to the point at which the mistake occurred.
Upvote
0
Good example, CS Lewis speaking of repentance in Mere Christianity.
Ok thanks for that - I was phrasing the question wrongly to begin with, as I have made clear in the thread.
A few other replies brought in issues that would maybe be better in a separate thread.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
The word "noetic" is derived form the Greek word nous, which in Orthodox Christian writings refers to something more deep than simple thought.
The English translators of The Philokalia use the word "intellect" to translate nous. Although this word also seems insufficient, the translator's definition is, I think, accurate (The Philokalia, Vol. 1, p. 362):
the highest faculty in man, through which - provided it is purified - he knows God or the inner essences or principles of created things by means of direct apprehension or spiritual perception. Unlike the dianoia, or reason, from which it must be carefully distinguished, the intellect [nous] does not function by formulating abstract concepts and then arguing on this basis to a conclusion reached through deductive reasoning, but it understands divine truth by means of immediate experience, intuition or 'simple cognition' (the term used by St. Isaac the Syrian [7th c]). The intellect [nous] dwells in the 'depths of the soul' [St. Diadochos of Photiki, 5th c]; it constitutes the innermost aspect of the heart. The intellect is the organ of contemplation, 'the eye of the heart' [St. Makarios of Egypt, 4th c].
Under this definition of "noetic", I believe that Orthodox Christian theology would maintain that salvation is not merely a noetic change, but a complete noetic transformation.
Upvote
0
The conventional wisdom is that the Fall was a noetic change:
1 Corinthians 2:14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
There are several ways to study the process of salvation, the transformational process, the end results, the actions that initiate those results.
A topic is that is studiously avoided is the topic of suffering.
Why is suffering desired by Paul?
What results from suffering?
Philippians 3:10that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
Reading Wright on 1 Corinthians 5:21 is a pretty enlightening experience:
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
http://googleweblight.com/?lite_url...826932&sig=AKQ9UO9t9tYuzZvnuiV4MNttUMClsAOyrg
On becoming the righteousness of God
The NTWRIGHT PAGE
Quote
T h r e e f i n a l r e f l e c t i o n s . F i r s t , t h i s w a y o f r e a d i n g t h e s e c o n d h a l f o f t h e c r u c i a l v e r s e m a y p e r h a p s p r o v i d e a n a d d i t i o n a l r e a s o n f o r t a k i n g t h e s e c o n d o c c u r r e n c e o f t h e v e r s e a s a r e f e r e n c e n o t j u s t t o “ s i n ” i n g e n e r a l b u t t o t h e “ s i n- o f f e r i n g . ” 1 3 I h a v e a r g u e d e l s e w h e r e f o r t h i s m e a n i n g f o r i n R o m 8 : 3 , a n d I t h i n k i t i s i n l i k e l y , g r a n t e d t h e m o r e c o n t e x t- s p e c i f i c r e a d i n g o f t h e v e r s e w h i c h I a m p r o p o s i n g , t h a t P a u l w o u l d i n t e n d i t h e r e t o o . 1 4 T h i s , i f c o r r e c t , w o u l d n o t w a t e r d o w n t h e s t r i k i n g i m p r e s s i o n o f t h e f i r s t h a l f o f t h e v e r s e , a s i s s o m e t i m e s s u g g e s t e d , b u t w o u l d r a t h e r g i v e i t m o r e s p e c i f i c d i r e c t i o n . T h e v e r s e i s n o t a n a b s t r a c t , d e t a c h e d s t a t e m e n t o f a t o n e m e n t t h e o l o g y ( P a u l n o w h e r e o f f e r s u s s u c h a t h i n g ) ; r a t h e r , i t f o c u s e s v e r y s p e c i f i c a l l y o n h i s o w n s t r a n g e a p o s t o l i c m i n i s t r y . I n s o f a r a s t h i s m i n i s t r y i s a t h i n g o f s h a m e a n d d i s h o n o r , i t i s s o d e s p i t e P a u l ’ s i n t e n t i o n , a n d t h e s i n- o f f e r i n g i s t h e r i g h t m e a n s o f d e a l i n g w i t h s u c h a p r o b l e m . I n s o f a r a s i t i s t h e m e a n s o f t h e d i v i n e c o v e n a n t f a i t h f u l n e s s b e i n g h e l d o u t t o t h e w o r l d , i t i s b e c a u s e , i n C h r i s t , P a u l h a s “ b e c o m e ” t h e ( “ r i g h t e o u s n e s s o f G o d ” ) . T h i s i s o n l y a s u g g e s t i o n , w h i c h c o u l d p e r h a p s b e t a k e n u p i n s u b s e q u e n t d i s c u s s i o n.
How does suffering affect the people who see our suffering.
Does the cross have a supernatural (for want of a better word) effect on people?
Does it physically remove sin, its power and presence, from the lives of the people who believe the Gospel?
Or does it cause people to do a double take? Cause them to ask, "Hey, what's going on here?" And THEN cause a change of world view?
I believe that God made Christ a sin offering in order to bring to bear cause and effect. The cross really was an expiation. The effects of the crime were really removed, the robbed bank gets its money back. Men are restored to pre Fall status.
Sin has a blinding effect on people. Removing sin from a person's life removes real mental blocks, people can actually understand spiritual matters, matters that they couldn't wrap their minds around before. New vistas of understanding are now open.
Colossians 1:24Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.
1 Corinthians 2:14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
There are several ways to study the process of salvation, the transformational process, the end results, the actions that initiate those results.
A topic is that is studiously avoided is the topic of suffering.
Why is suffering desired by Paul?
What results from suffering?
Philippians 3:10that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
Reading Wright on 1 Corinthians 5:21 is a pretty enlightening experience:
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
http://googleweblight.com/?lite_url...826932&sig=AKQ9UO9t9tYuzZvnuiV4MNttUMClsAOyrg
On becoming the righteousness of God
The NTWRIGHT PAGE
Quote
T h r e e f i n a l r e f l e c t i o n s . F i r s t , t h i s w a y o f r e a d i n g t h e s e c o n d h a l f o f t h e c r u c i a l v e r s e m a y p e r h a p s p r o v i d e a n a d d i t i o n a l r e a s o n f o r t a k i n g t h e s e c o n d o c c u r r e n c e o f t h e v e r s e a s a r e f e r e n c e n o t j u s t t o “ s i n ” i n g e n e r a l b u t t o t h e “ s i n- o f f e r i n g . ” 1 3 I h a v e a r g u e d e l s e w h e r e f o r t h i s m e a n i n g f o r i n R o m 8 : 3 , a n d I t h i n k i t i s i n l i k e l y , g r a n t e d t h e m o r e c o n t e x t- s p e c i f i c r e a d i n g o f t h e v e r s e w h i c h I a m p r o p o s i n g , t h a t P a u l w o u l d i n t e n d i t h e r e t o o . 1 4 T h i s , i f c o r r e c t , w o u l d n o t w a t e r d o w n t h e s t r i k i n g i m p r e s s i o n o f t h e f i r s t h a l f o f t h e v e r s e , a s i s s o m e t i m e s s u g g e s t e d , b u t w o u l d r a t h e r g i v e i t m o r e s p e c i f i c d i r e c t i o n . T h e v e r s e i s n o t a n a b s t r a c t , d e t a c h e d s t a t e m e n t o f a t o n e m e n t t h e o l o g y ( P a u l n o w h e r e o f f e r s u s s u c h a t h i n g ) ; r a t h e r , i t f o c u s e s v e r y s p e c i f i c a l l y o n h i s o w n s t r a n g e a p o s t o l i c m i n i s t r y . I n s o f a r a s t h i s m i n i s t r y i s a t h i n g o f s h a m e a n d d i s h o n o r , i t i s s o d e s p i t e P a u l ’ s i n t e n t i o n , a n d t h e s i n- o f f e r i n g i s t h e r i g h t m e a n s o f d e a l i n g w i t h s u c h a p r o b l e m . I n s o f a r a s i t i s t h e m e a n s o f t h e d i v i n e c o v e n a n t f a i t h f u l n e s s b e i n g h e l d o u t t o t h e w o r l d , i t i s b e c a u s e , i n C h r i s t , P a u l h a s “ b e c o m e ” t h e ( “ r i g h t e o u s n e s s o f G o d ” ) . T h i s i s o n l y a s u g g e s t i o n , w h i c h c o u l d p e r h a p s b e t a k e n u p i n s u b s e q u e n t d i s c u s s i o n.
How does suffering affect the people who see our suffering.
Does the cross have a supernatural (for want of a better word) effect on people?
Does it physically remove sin, its power and presence, from the lives of the people who believe the Gospel?
Or does it cause people to do a double take? Cause them to ask, "Hey, what's going on here?" And THEN cause a change of world view?
I believe that God made Christ a sin offering in order to bring to bear cause and effect. The cross really was an expiation. The effects of the crime were really removed, the robbed bank gets its money back. Men are restored to pre Fall status.
Sin has a blinding effect on people. Removing sin from a person's life removes real mental blocks, people can actually understand spiritual matters, matters that they couldn't wrap their minds around before. New vistas of understanding are now open.
Colossians 1:24Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
WordKeeper - If you don't mind me saying you go from one thing to another quite a bit in your posts, could you maybe start these topics if you wish to discuss them in more depth in new threads. Thanks.
"The poet asks only to get his head into the heavens. It is the logician that seeks to get the heavens into his head. And it is his head that splits." GK Chesterton
"The intellectual life is not the only road to God, nor the safest, but we find it to be a road, and it may be the appointed road for us." CS Lewis
A believer is someone who is in Christ (in the Biblical sense), before that they were outside of Christ. They undergo a trans-position.
In my view God saves people who are outside of Christ. I don't think one can be outside of God in the biblical sense, but God's gracious relationship with us is covananted in Christ.
In the novel That Hideous Strength, Jane experiences this trans-position following several dramatic events gripping the fictional town and university in the story, and conversations with several christians she has been befriended by.
I can't quote it all in full but I have tried to include the important parts.
Here is how it happens in the story.
Jane had gone into the garden to think. She accepted what the Director [Ransom] had said, yet it seemed to her nonsensical. His comparison between Mark's love and God's (since apparently there was a God) struck her nascent spirituality as indecent and irreverent.... For she still thought that Religion was a kind of exhalation or cloud of incense, something steaming up from specially gifted souls towards a receptive Heaven. Then, quite sharply it occured to her that the Director never talked about Religion...They talked about God. They had no picture in their minds of some mist steaming upward: rather of strong, skilful hands thrust down to make, and mend, perhaps even to destroy. Supposing one were a thing after all - a thing designed and and invented by Someone Else and valued for qualities quite different from what one had decided to regard as one's true self?...For one moment she had a ridiculous and scorching vision of a world in which God Himself would never understand, never take her with full seriousness. Then, at one particular corner of the gooseberry patch, the change came.
What awaited her there was serious to the degree of sorrow and beyond. There was no form nor sound. The mold under the bushes, the moss on the path, and the little brick border, were not visibly changed. But they were changed. A boundary had been crossed. She had come into a world, or into a Person, or into the presence of a Person. Something expectant, patient, inexorable, met her with no veil or protection between...In this height and depth and breadth the little idea of herself which she had hitherto called me dropped down and vanished, unfluttering, into bottomless distance, like a bird in a space without air. The name me was the name of a being whose existence she had never suspected, a being that did not yet fully exist but which was demanded. It was a person (not the person she had thought), yet also a thing, a made thing, made to please Another and in Him to please all others, a thing being made at this very moment, without its choice, in a shape it had never dreamed of. And the making went on amidst a kind of splendour or sorrow or both, whereof she could not tell whether it was in the moulding hands or in the kneaded lump.
Words take too long. To be aware of all this and to know that it had already gone made one single experience. It was revealed only in its departure. The largest thing that had ever happened to her had, apparently found room for itself in a moment of time too short to be called time at all. Her hand closed on nothing but a memory. And as it closed, without an instant's pause, the voices of those who have not joy rose howling and chattering from every corner of her being.
But her defenses had been captured and these counter-attacks were unsuccessful.
It seems to me CS Lewis is depicting something much more than a change in Jane's thinking. Her thinking only takes her so far, the change takes place in spite of much of her thinking.
"The poet asks only to get his head into the heavens. It is the logician that seeks to get the heavens into his head. And it is his head that splits." GK Chesterton
"The intellectual life is not the only road to God, nor the safest, but we find it to be a road, and it may be the appointed road for us." CS Lewis
A believer is someone who is in Christ (in the Biblical sense), before that they were outside of Christ. They undergo a trans-position.
In my view God saves people who are outside of Christ. I don't think one can be outside of God in the biblical sense, but God's gracious relationship with us is covananted in Christ.
In the novel That Hideous Strength, Jane experiences this trans-position following several dramatic events gripping the fictional town and university in the story, and conversations with several christians she has been befriended by.
I can't quote it all in full but I have tried to include the important parts.
Here is how it happens in the story.
Jane had gone into the garden to think. She accepted what the Director [Ransom] had said, yet it seemed to her nonsensical. His comparison between Mark's love and God's (since apparently there was a God) struck her nascent spirituality as indecent and irreverent.... For she still thought that Religion was a kind of exhalation or cloud of incense, something steaming up from specially gifted souls towards a receptive Heaven. Then, quite sharply it occured to her that the Director never talked about Religion...They talked about God. They had no picture in their minds of some mist steaming upward: rather of strong, skilful hands thrust down to make, and mend, perhaps even to destroy. Supposing one were a thing after all - a thing designed and and invented by Someone Else and valued for qualities quite different from what one had decided to regard as one's true self?...For one moment she had a ridiculous and scorching vision of a world in which God Himself would never understand, never take her with full seriousness. Then, at one particular corner of the gooseberry patch, the change came.
What awaited her there was serious to the degree of sorrow and beyond. There was no form nor sound. The mold under the bushes, the moss on the path, and the little brick border, were not visibly changed. But they were changed. A boundary had been crossed. She had come into a world, or into a Person, or into the presence of a Person. Something expectant, patient, inexorable, met her with no veil or protection between...In this height and depth and breadth the little idea of herself which she had hitherto called me dropped down and vanished, unfluttering, into bottomless distance, like a bird in a space without air. The name me was the name of a being whose existence she had never suspected, a being that did not yet fully exist but which was demanded. It was a person (not the person she had thought), yet also a thing, a made thing, made to please Another and in Him to please all others, a thing being made at this very moment, without its choice, in a shape it had never dreamed of. And the making went on amidst a kind of splendour or sorrow or both, whereof she could not tell whether it was in the moulding hands or in the kneaded lump.
Words take too long. To be aware of all this and to know that it had already gone made one single experience. It was revealed only in its departure. The largest thing that had ever happened to her had, apparently found room for itself in a moment of time too short to be called time at all. Her hand closed on nothing but a memory. And as it closed, without an instant's pause, the voices of those who have not joy rose howling and chattering from every corner of her being.
But her defenses had been captured and these counter-attacks were unsuccessful.
It seems to me CS Lewis is depicting something much more than a change in Jane's thinking. Her thinking only takes her so far, the change takes place in spite of much of her thinking.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
That's a good idea, to start a thread to discuss the aspects of salvation that I am interested in. I have named the thread, Would a mission by an alien space ship to pick up a Christian specimen from a crowded sidewalk be successful, based solely on external identification marks?
Obviously, if one can only differentiate a Christian by the change in his world view, this would be impossible. On the other hand if we were to say that Christians would be identifiable because they avoid bars and other places of sinful activity, someone who habitually avoids these places could be followed for a few days to confirm this distinctive behaviour and so be identified, except for the fact that other groups with high moral standards may also get picked up by mistake.
By following a process of elimination, we can then single out the distinctive feature by which Christians can separated from the rest of humanity and thus reach a conclusion of the change is noetic, if a positive response to the Gospel is just a change in the way of thinking, a switch in values, or whether other things happen, for example he becomes a source of living.waters, is a repository for words of eternal life, and how THAT plays out.
Maybe a conclusion can emerge.
Obviously, if one can only differentiate a Christian by the change in his world view, this would be impossible. On the other hand if we were to say that Christians would be identifiable because they avoid bars and other places of sinful activity, someone who habitually avoids these places could be followed for a few days to confirm this distinctive behaviour and so be identified, except for the fact that other groups with high moral standards may also get picked up by mistake.
By following a process of elimination, we can then single out the distinctive feature by which Christians can separated from the rest of humanity and thus reach a conclusion of the change is noetic, if a positive response to the Gospel is just a change in the way of thinking, a switch in values, or whether other things happen, for example he becomes a source of living.waters, is a repository for words of eternal life, and how THAT plays out.
Maybe a conclusion can emerge.
Upvote
0
Similar threads
