Is salvation basically a noetic change?

dms1972

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I'm not sure a clear answer is possible...



I agree a clear answer may not be possible perhaps I should have asked "is there a noetic priority in conversion?". That I now think would have been better way to ask.


The terminology used in many of the responses is basically metaphorical. Obviously the heart just pumps blood. It has nothing to do with our motivations. But metaphorically we refer to a change of heart.

Some might think you mean less than real by 'metaphorically' and saying the "heart just pumps blood" - it actually does a lot more.
 
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Wordkeeper

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To get back on topic, salvation is a noetic change. These are the states, polar opposites: from having a worldview of making the best of a bad situation, by working for rewards that are temporal, to making a switch to a better situation, working for rewards that are substantive, eternal, permanent.
 
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dms1972

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To get back on topic, salvation is a noetic change. These are the states, polar opposites: from having a worldview of making the best of a bad situation, by working for rewards that are temporal, to making a switch to a better situation, working for rewards that are substantive, eternal, permanent.


I find my view changing a little from when I asked as its a few months ago and it seemed to me then that

conversion was a noetic change, but now it seems to me that christian conversion in its beginning will bring about noetic changes, but be more or deeper than that. I think it could be said that its a mysterious combination of crisis and process that is emotional, volitional, intellectual... Salvation really is a work of God, but intellectually some blocks come down. That could be because of the Holy Spirit at work in the depths of the person.

It will have noetic content is my view but it won't be merely that, so its a change of heart rather than simply a different kind of abstract thinking about things. "Godly sorrow leadeth to repentance" and that obviously must be sorrow in relation to a Person.

I agree with the vital elements of Notitia, Assensus, and Fiducia. But faith has to be accompanied by hope and love. None of this we can work up humanistically speaking - as they are theological virtues - not abstract theological knowledge.

Apart from those revival movements in the time since the Reformation, protestantism has tended towards abstract discussion on things like the order of salvation. St Paul's theology is beautifully interwoven, its not linear and two dimensional.

Basically Paul had an experience of conversion that radically changed him, then he was later taught (received) the basic christian teaching that he lays out in 1 Corthinians Chapter 15.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+15&version=NIV.

He didn't learn a theology to then become converted, in fact he had to unlearn a theology he was so proud of in a way. He was basically unmade on the road to Damascus when he met the Lord, so as to be remade.
 
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Wordkeeper

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I find my view changing a little from when I asked as its a few months ago and it seemed to me then that

conversion was a noetic change, but now it seems to me that christian conversion in its beginning will bring about noetic changes, but be more or deeper than that. Its definitely a change in the depths of ones consciousness, or an awakening. I think really its best said that its a mysterious combination of crisis and process that is emotional, volitional, intellectual. But its not open to analysis. Salvation really is a work of God, but intellectually some blocks come down. That could be because of the Holy Spirit at work in the depths of the person.

It will have noetic content is my view but it won't be merely that, so its a change of heart rather than simply a different kind of abstract thinking about things. "Godly sorrow leadeth to repentance" and that obviously must be sorrow in relation to a Person.

I agree with the vital elements of Notia, Assensus, and Fiducia. But faith has to be accompanied by hope and love. None of this we can work up humanistically speaking - as they are theological virtues - not abstract theological knowledge.

Apart from those revival movements in the time since the Reformation, protestantism has tended towards abstract discussion on things like the order of salvation. St Paul's theology is beautifully interwoven, its not linear and two dimensional.

Basically Paul had an experience of conversion that radically changed him, then he was later taught (received) the basic christian teaching that he lays out in 1 Corthinians Chapter 15.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+15&version=NIV.

He didn't learn a theology to then become converted, in fact he had to unlearn a theology he was so proud of in a way. He was basically unmade on the road to Damascus when he met the Lord.

Could you explain salvation using the following example?


Quote
He walked across, 160 feet above the falls, several times... each time with a different daring feat - once in a sack, on stilts, on a bicycle, in the dark, and blindfolded. One time he even carried a stove and cooked an omelet in the middle of the rope!

A large crowd gathered and the buzz of excitement ran along both sides of the river bank. The crowd “Oohed and Aahed!” as Blondin carefully walked across - one dangerous step after another - pushing a wheelbarrow holding a sack of potatoes.

Then a one point, he asked for the participation of a volunteer. Upon reaching the other side, the crowd's applause was louder than the roar of the falls!

Blondin suddenly stopped and addressed his audience: "Do you believe I can carry a person across in this wheelbarrow?"

The crowd enthusiastically yelled, "Yes! You are the greatest tightrope walker in the world. We believe!"

"Okay," said Blondin, "Who wants to get into the wheelbarrow."

As far as the Blondin story goes, no one did at the time!

This unique story illustrates a real life picture of what faith actually is. The crowd watched these daring feats. They said they believed. But... their actions proved they truly did not believe.

Similarly, it is one thing for us to say we believe in God. However, it's true faith when we believe God and put our faith and trust in His Son, Jesus Christ.


http://www.inspire21.com/stories/faithstories/CharlesBlondin
 
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AphroditeGoneAwry

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I perceive it intuitively as a new creation when a person's potential becomes fulfilled.

That can only happen in Christ! When our being marries Jesus Christ and we become born again, entelechiae is generated; a new unique, and beautiful force of us. It is not a linear process nor one that is easily defined.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potentiality_and_actuality
 
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bling

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Could you explain salvation using the following example?


Quote
He walked across, 160 feet above the falls, several times... each time with a different daring feat - once in a sack, on stilts, on a bicycle, in the dark, and blindfolded. One time he even carried a stove and cooked an omelet in the middle of the rope!

A large crowd gathered and the buzz of excitement ran along both sides of the river bank. The crowd “Oohed and Aahed!” as Blondin carefully walked across - one dangerous step after another - pushing a wheelbarrow holding a sack of potatoes.

Then a one point, he asked for the participation of a volunteer. Upon reaching the other side, the crowd's applause was louder than the roar of the falls!

Blondin suddenly stopped and addressed his audience: "Do you believe I can carry a person across in this wheelbarrow?"

The crowd enthusiastically yelled, "Yes! You are the greatest tightrope walker in the world. We believe!"

"Okay," said Blondin, "Who wants to get into the wheelbarrow."

As far as the Blondin story goes, no one did at the time!

This unique story illustrates a real life picture of what faith actually is. The crowd watched these daring feats. They said they believed. But... their actions proved they truly did not believe.

Similarly, it is one thing for us to say we believe in God. However, it's true faith when we believe God and put our faith and trust in His Son, Jesus Christ.


http://www.inspire21.com/stories/faithstories/CharlesBlondin

I have a huge problem with that analogy.

God is not asking us to go from a secure situation (standing on the bank) to a highly risky situation (being in a shaky wheelbarrow dependent on someone we do not know even cares about us).

We are “good” soldiers of satan fighting a hard battle against God. We can wimp out (not be brave by jumping into the wheelbarrow), we can give up fighting and surrender to our enemy (God). We are not deciding at that moment to join God for He is the enemy, but we just hope God will not justly punish us for the war crimes we have committed and we are willing to accept God’s charity.
 
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bling

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What place is the heart of a christian in?



[edited] I think one has to use language that has the best import metaphorically. So I find for me thinking in terms of a "beach-head" in a heart does that best for me. Resources cannot pass across till a 'beach-head' in a heart is established then a heart is progressively captured and brought into obedience to Christ (sanctification). A territory under enemy control can't establish its own beach-head so salvation is of Grace. Once a beach-head is established the war is effectively won, though there are still battles to be fought.

I think you are asking way too much of the nonbeliever. God is willing and wanting to shower everyone with unbelievable huge gifts, but man just has to be willing to accept these gifts. Man does this by giving up, wimping out, and/or surrendering. It is not that the nonbeliever does something praise worthy for some noble reason, but the nonbeliever for very selfish reasons is willing to humbly accept pure charity.
 
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bling

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I find my view changing a little from when I asked as its a few months ago and it seemed to me then that


Apart from those revival movements in the time since the Reformation, protestantism has tended towards abstract discussion on things like the order of salvation. St Paul's theology is beautifully interwoven, its not linear and two dimensional.

Basically Paul had an experience of conversion that radically changed him, then he was later taught (received) the basic christian teaching that he lays out in 1 Corthinians Chapter 15.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+15&version=NIV.

He didn't learn a theology to then become converted, in fact he had to unlearn a theology he was so proud of in a way. He was basically unmade on the road to Damascus when he met the Lord, so as to be remade.

None of us can equate to being “like” Saul who became Paul.

Paul is extremely intelligent, hyper active, stubborn, self-confident, a risk taker, and fanatical. He was whole heartily doing what he thought was the religiously the right thing to do.

Saul might have been the hardest person that has ever lived to convert to Christianity, yet he could still be persuaded. Saul could have got to Damascus, reasoned he experienced a heat stroke, fallen from his horse, was blinded by the sun, and had a nightmare. Saul had lots of good practical, selfish reasons to reject Christ even after this miracle and stay on task, but he also had time to stop and think about all this, with a heart willing to listen.
 
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I have a huge problem with that analogy.

God is not asking us to go from a secure situation (standing on the bank) to a highly risky situation (being in a shaky wheelbarrow dependent on someone we do not know even cares about us).

We are “good” soldiers of satan fighting a hard battle against God. We can wimp out (not be brave by jumping into the wheelbarrow), we can give up fighting and surrender to our enemy (God). We are not deciding at that moment to join God for He is the enemy, but we just hope God will not justly punish us for the war crimes we have committed and we are willing to accept God’s charity.


The problem is that many of us are impressed with God's track record, as the crowd at the event were with Blondin, and promise to be faithful to God, to obey whatever He commands us to do. And we are caught out, as the Israelites in the wilderness were caught out, when He asks us to give up everything, even caring for our lives:


Luke 14:33"So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

Numbers 14:1Then all the congregation lifted up their voices and cried, and the people wept that night. 2All the sons of Israel grumbled against Moses and Aaron; and the whole congregation said to them, “Would that we had died in the land of Egypt! Or would that we had died in this wilderness! 3“Why is the LORD bringing us into this land, to fall by the sword? Our wives and our little ones will become plunder; would it not be better for us to return to Egypt?” 4So they said to one another, “Let us appoint a leader and return to Egypt.”
 
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dms1972

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I think you are asking way too much of the nonbeliever. God is willing and wanting to shower everyone with unbelievable huge gifts, but man just has to be willing to accept these gifts. Man does this by giving up, wimping out, and/or surrendering.


Did you read this part of my comment?
A territory under enemy control can't establish its own beach-head so salvation is of Grace.
 
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dms1972

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I perceive it intuitively as a new creation when a person's potential becomes fulfilled.

That can only happen in Christ! When our being marries Jesus Christ and we become born again, entelechiae is generated; a new unique, and beautiful force of us. It is not a linear process nor one that is easily defined.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potentiality_and_actuality

Is there a big difference between Aristotelian and Leibnizian explications of entelechiae?

I'd like to understand better about entelechiae before subscribing to any philosophy.

This is an interesting part of the discussion to me, Josef Pieper explicating Thomist theology writes that:

"Virtue is not the tame "respectability" and "uprightness" of the philistine but the enhancement of the human person in a way befitting his nature."

"Theological virtue is an ennobling of man's nature that entirely surpasses what he "can be" of himself. Theological virtue is the steadfast orientation toward a fulfillment and a beatitude that are not "owed" to natural man. Theological virtue is the utmost degree of a supernatural potentiality for being. This supernatural potentiality for being is grounded in a real, grace filled participation in the divine nature, which comes to man through Christ." (2 Peter 1:4)

These quotes are from Pieper's book On Hope.
 
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dms1972

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We are “good” soldiers of satan fighting a hard battle against God....

I don't believe or accept this as a general notion of human depravity, nor the kantian liberal notions either.
 
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First, yes salvation is not only a change of what we think and believe. However, our character can have a lot to do with what we want to believe. So, when Jesus saves a person, God changes the person's character so the person is able to believe things of God's word . . . but also do what the Bible says to do.

For only one example, a selfish person might not be able to believe in forgiveness, though the Bible clearly does say, "forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (in Ephesians 4:32) And even ones who have become Christians still might be lazy forgivers, since they still are not strongly loving; and so they might say oh I can't forgive because I am not God. But God in us makes us like Himself so we forgive "even as God" who in us shares with us His nature and ability of love.

So, what we believe can be because of our character more or less selfish and because of how loving we really are or aren't. And becoming saved includes changing our nature, then, so we can live the love meaning of God's word, and not only change in how we explain things :)

You asked, it seems from a quote, "What" the Holy Spirit is. And I think you got a good answer, how the Holy Spirit is a Person and not only a "What". The Holy Spirit is personal . . . sharing God's own love with us, "in our hearts" >

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

I offer that, in order for the Holy Spirit to be the Spirit of God's own love, the Holy Spirit is a personal Being of God, not only a force. But humans may see love as being only a force; so they might "therefore" suppose the Holy Spirit is only a power or force. But God is personal, as the Father and Son and Holy Spirit > the Supreme Being of love which is family caring and sharing love.

And His love changes us so we relate personally as family with one another children of God > this is included in our basic calling >

"with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love," (Ephesians 4:2)

We can love any and all people, even, because it is no longer our nature to love only those we hope to use and whom we can possess (Matthew 5:46). And we can adopt ones who please to share with us in this loving, so that we are family with all others who have become changed like this.
Is there a big difference between Aristotelian and Leibnizian explications of entelechiae?
Possibly, Aristotle thought all is material and therefore entelechy is within the material realm with causes all physical somehow. But it seems Leibniz felt that there were non-material sources of effect on this world.

If all being is material, then the fulfilling results of all effects can be only material, just a rearranging of things, perhaps we could say.

But I understand that there is the spirit of evil > Ephesians 2:2 > which does effect physical things, but also effects a human's spiritual nature, using lusts to make a person want pleasure, and these lusts degrade a human to become "worse and worse" (2 Timothy 3:13) in one's selfish nature . . . while one is going after material pleasures in order to feel better; but, "of course", while seeking material niceness for fulfillment, deeper the person is getting more and more ruined in one's character; because beneficial entelechy comes truly from God's love and not from making things nicer materially > the material can not change our spiritual nature.

So we need grace, which is the action in us of God's own almighty power of love, making us more and more like Him in love, while also making us creative spiritually and materially, so we can be involved in bringing out spiritual fulfillment beneficial and be creative with material things and enjoy (1 Timothy 6:17).

I'd like to understand better about entelechiae before subscribing to any philosophy.
I understand that there is, first, God Himself who is spiritual and almighty and love. Humans at our spiritual level are . . . nonmaterial, not controlled and decided by material forces, but we can be controlled by God in love, or by "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (in Ephesians 2:2) So, this is part of why we need salvation . . . so God changes our nature so we become more and more immune to how Satanic things would effect us and control us.

By Satanic things I mean nasty angry reacting which is caring only or mainly about our own selves, versus how God's anger comes from love and brings a loving result creative, on the whole. And there are Satanic things of frustration, worry's abuse and pathological lying, unforgiveness, lingering hurts, bitterness, and being controlled by dictatorial lusts for pleasure in one's effort to feel something nicer than boredom and loneliness and confusion and other unloving things.

Only in God's love with power almighty can we be sweetly immune to such sin-sick stuff. So, this is part of why we need to be saved . . . so we are safe :) from the abuse of Satan's selfish spirit. But, most of all, we get saved from God's judgment, but we become safe in His love which also makes us intimate and family with Him and one another.

This is not what comes with material entelechy, but only God is able to do this with us, and this is personal, in His love.

This is an interesting part of the discussion to me, Josef Pieper explicating Thomist theology writes that:

"Virtue is not the tame "respectability" and "uprightness" of the philistine but the enhancement of the human person in a way befitting his nature."
God changes our nature, so that we have what is befitting our new nature which is no longer human, but "the divine nature" > 2 Peter 4:2. We do not just change from one human nature to another, by some virtue, but God changes our nature more and more into the nature of His own love >

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

So, we are changed into a totally different nature which makes us able to be and live and share in God's totally different way of loving. We love because we personally care, among other benefits . . . while in our selfish loving as humans we often could fall in love with whoever made us feel good, in order that we would not feel, so much, that deep nasty mess of sin. Therefore, we used the ones we loved, not necessarily really caring about them. We could fall in love with what we wanted to use someone to get for our own selves; if we could not get it, we could have a falling-out!!

So, we tended to believe that material things could produce entelechy of what is desirable in us; however, material things can not produce good fulfillment or bad fulfillment which is spiritual in our spiritual nature. But a spiritual being can effect what is material, and materials can effect other materials. God can actually change the nature of a physical thing, including by the resurrection which makes our bodies spiritual and immortal and of His own glory . . . a major entelechy, to say the least.

"Theological virtue is an ennobling of man's nature that entirely surpasses what he "can be" of himself. Theological virtue is the steadfast orientation toward a fulfillment and a beatitude that are not "owed" to natural man. Theological virtue is the utmost degree of a supernatural potentiality for being. This supernatural potentiality for being is grounded in a real, grace filled participation in the divine nature, which comes to man through Christ." (2 Peter 1:4)

These quotes are from Pieper's book On Hope.
Ok, where he says "enabling of man's nature", at first I was thinking: no, God does not ennoble our human nature. But he seems to mean that God changes us from the human nature which we have had, into having God's own nature of love; and this is so better for our nature which is not longer human, but divine, making us able to love unselfishly and undesperately.
 
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I don't believe or accept this as a general notion of human depravity, nor the kantian liberal notions either.

You seem to be a diligent person, willing to work at studying Scripture, in order to rightly divide the Word, and not willing to jump to easy answers. How would you critique the following view:

Philip promised the Ethiopian eunuch that he would reach Rest if he was to receive the Holy Spirit, the result of the reconciliatory work of Christ, for which God sent Jesus, required by obligation and righteousness, God's faithfulness to His promise to Abraham, dikaiosune theou.

Acts 8:13Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.

14Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

........
Acts 8:35Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him.


Of course the Holy Spirit would only enable the eunuch to drink from the Rock, understand God: he needed to believe, accept the revelation and obey, to enter that Rest.

1 Corinthians 10:1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

Rest is of course from the task, the fight described in Romans 7, trying to make sin, the outer nature, obey the steering of the real Paul. Because it's not Paul who sinned, it's the immature body humankind is stuck with, which Adam's disobedience caused, interrupting the subduing, the harnessing process that was ongoing till that act of disobedience. Now, now, through the slaughter of the lamb described in the passage the eunuch was reading, the process could be re- ignited, for which the whole of creation waited, in eager expectation, for the sons of God to be revealed.
I don't believe or accept this as a general notion of human depravity, nor the kantian liberal notions either.
 
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dms1972

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You seem to be a diligent person, willing to work at studying Scripture, in order to rightly divide the Word, and not willing to jump to easy answers. How would you critique the following view:

I'm not sure what it is you would like me to critique?
 
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Wordkeeper

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I'm not sure what it is you would like me to critique?


You didn't like the notions of natural human depravity, nor the Kantian explanations.

Basically we need to understand the sickness before we attempt a cure to normalcy. What is the sickness? What is considered normal?

The writers of Scripture did not have the technical terms we have at our disposal today, entelechy, etc. However, they knew what they had was not normal. Romans 7 describes the abnormality succinctly.

Do you accept its explanation?
 
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dms1972

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Who is the "we" you are refering to?

Whose sickness?

No I don't accept the view or interpretation given, because it borders on incomprehensible what is being said, that is to say it doesn't make a lot of sense. Some like that kind of thing - I don't. That's my critique.

Entelechy is not a term at anyones disposal unless they know what they are talking about. It has particular meanings in different philosophies - its not a modern technical term, neither are technical terms of most use in explaining or communicating the Gospel, doubly so when they are being used without much regard for original meaning.

I'd have liked to read something more of Aphroditiegoneawry had to say on the matter, to see what her understanding was before others jumped in.


Remember material cause as Aristotle understood it isn't like one snooker ball hitting another - rather the material cause of a table is wood.
 
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Could you explain salvation using the following example...

I'd say no it not a great illustration.

To explain salvation i'd say read from the Bible and a good commentary.

Compare that example with this from Oswald Chambers.

"When the devil puts you in an elevated place, he makes you screw your idea of holiness beyond what flesh and blood could ever bear, it is a spiritual acrobatic performance, you are just poised and dare not move; but when God elevates you by His grace into the heavenly places, instead of finding a pinnacle to cling to, you find a great table-land where it is easy to move." March 27th
 
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