Is my wife choosing the church over us?

[royaltybyadoption]

Hi everyone. I'm new here, but glad to see such a diverse group of believers (and some non-believers as well) in one forum.

I don't know which type of Christian I would align myself with. I've known God for 19 years. I treasure my relationship with Him. However, like many here I've been burned by different churches in the past. Partly myself to blame for that as I know I can be overly-sensitive to authority figures.
My wife (who is Japanese) and I live in Japan and have two children together. She goes to a local church and is involved in various activities such as Sunday morning youth worship and singing on the worship team.

Because of my work, I am unable to attend the Sunday worship. However, to be honest, I'm would not be interested in attending even if I were not working.

Why? I find the services unedifying. It's party a cultural thing, but mostly it's because they insist on singing 150-year-old hymnals in archaic language and the structure is extremely formal. I find it stifling. The messages from the pulpit are rudimentary and unpractical.

The other members are nice, but they seem to be locked in to a pattern of thinking that seems based on legalities rather than an openness. Meaning: I always get the feeling they want me to perform more for their church (rather then just wanting to talk to another human being for the love of it.)

In the last year, my wife, along with the worship team leader have both taken it upon themselves to try to get me to be a part of the church more. They asked me to come and give them advice regarding certain worship songs (I used to be a worship music leader.) However, it turned out they never wanted advice but rather wanted me to join the team and play more of a part in the church membership.
I felt that was a bit deceiving.
Yesterday my wife and I had a heated disagreement when she once again announced she would be spending all of Christmas Eve at the church with their worship team rather than at home with me and the children. I had requested we could have Christmas Eve as a family event because it's the only event I have over here as part of my culture. We had agreed on that last year, but she forgot and now won't back out of the church service.

She says she feels I'm trying to steal her happiness by trying to get her away from the church. I don't want that. I want her to be happy, but just the one day of the year?
Am I being too harsh?

I know I'm not the best husband. I have apologized to her for my shortcomings. She can go and enjoy the Christmas Eve "celebration" at the church and I will bring to kids to take part. But every year the Eve event goes on and on and on and everyone is so somber with melancholic group prayer that continues for hours. My son and I don't find anything in that to identify with and my younger daughter just goes off to a back room to draw pictures with another girl. It doesn't feel like any Christmas I know. And we certainly don't do much as a family.
I would rather stay home and play games, maybe some bible reading and a short prayer time. Have some food with candles, etc.
But when I suggest that, she becomes defensive saying I'm just bitter about the church.

 

[Johnnz]

The Japanese can be very diligent and organised. That doe snot always lead to good family life. Many Western Christians fall into te same trap, pitting two God given responsibilities against each other - church and family. Since God is both just and is not the author of confusion we have got something very wrong in my opinion.

John
NZ

 

[Hosannainthehighest]

Maybe she is choosing church over family? Is the formal structure a part of her cultural upbringing? How long have you been in Japan for? What lead her to this church in particular? There's probably roots going down here that aren't as cut and dried as her choosing church over family. I am not sure that the question is she choosing church over family but why? all of the choices we make come from what's in our heart, even if we don't realise what's in there and why we are making the choices that we make at all times.

 

[dorig59]

I think on the one hand that it's rather sweet she tried to get you into the church. Having said that, though, I don't think she should be making you feel like you're second billing here. Her first ministry is to YOU not the church. How to get her to understand that is another problem. I can say that you're right, but it won't necessarily solve your problems. Perhaps you could offer to find a church together that you both like?

 

[royaltybyadoption]

Thank you both for your replies. I appreciate your gentleness.

Maybe she is choosing church over family? Is the formal structure a part of her cultural upbringing? How long have you been in Japan for? What lead her to this church in particular? There's probably roots going down here that aren't as cut and dried as her choosing church over family. I am not sure that the question is she choosing church over family but why? all of the choices we make come from what's in our heart, even if we don't realise what's in there and why we are making the choices that we make at all times.

I suppose she has been in a structured lifestyle since Jr. High -- a time when she was first introduced to God in a personal way. Jr. High School is very conservative and regimented here. That is one cultural difference among many that we have had to take into account since we first began our relationship.
All of the churches in this city are very traditional and extremely sedate with strong conservative ethos ingrained by missionaries from generations long past. Most churches have one instrument: a foot-pumped reed organ in the corner (just to give you an idea.) I'm OK with that -- that is the way they want to worship -- but just don't force me to be a part of that. When I was a regular at one of the local churches, they never really took me as an equal. I felt an outsider (and was told I was one during a church meeting when I voiced an opinion.)

My wife knows how I feel very well. Probably because I never shut up about it whenever we discussed church or people we know in the church. I feel I am growing in that area and she is very accepting of me and my character. I love her. I know she loves me.

I was shocked at her words yesterday when she told me that she feels I am trying to stop her from having freedom. I want to talk to her about that -- I definitely will do so -- when she mellows out a bit more. Perhaps in a few days.

I think you are right about roots going down deeper than what meets the eye. In her childhood, her father never married her mother and left them when she was only two years old. Not having a strong father figure around the house in Japan is quite common (with many fathers working/living in another city altogether.) But I think when her mother remarried to an alcoholic with a strong temper and the reality of her real father settled in her consciousness, something in her closed up shop to protect that little girl in her tender years.

She is not oblivious to that part of herself. In her humble moments she is quick to admit her faults and wishes to keep a goal to overcome. I'm not sure how that is playing a part in this current situation, but her childhood has molded her to large extent, that is certain.

She chose this particular church because it was in the neighborhood we formerly lived in. She knows the members well. I know them only as acquaintances. They seem like nice people in general. I used to sense some pressure (whether real or imagined) that they wanted me to allow the Pastor and his wife to be my spiritual leaders. But I make it subtly clear that I am not interested.

I've been in Japan for 14 years (back and forth to Canada since 1991.) I speak the language, but don't always speak the culture...

 

[royaltybyadoption]

I think on the one hand that it's rather sweet she tried to get you into the church. Having said that, though, I don't think she should be making you feel like you're second billing here. Her first ministry is to YOU not the church. How to get her to understand that is another problem. I can say that you're right, but it won't necessarily solve your problems. Perhaps you could offer to find a church together that you both like?

Thank you for your words and your concern.
With regard to her trying to get me to go to church -- I suppose I resented feeling like I was not living a godly life because I didn't go. Whether or not they really think that, I felt it. Perhaps some think that way and others don't. Maybe they all harbor those thoughts at a subconscious level. Who knows?

My wife told me she feels I'm overly sensitive about that. I once was told by her aunt that "one cannot be a Christian and not go to church." I didn't comment out of politeness, but I let my wife know how erroneous and hurtful that thinking is. And because I have mentioned it on far too many occasions she may be tired of that tune.

She seems to feel that I have went and turned that sticking point (hating the idea that only true Christians go to church) into an actual reason NOT to go anymore.
What a catch-22 that turned into! That is not the sole reason, but one of many reasons, I must admit.

I want her to understand, but there seems to be a wall I'm running into. Maybe my own personality is turning her off from listening to me. Perhaps she is getting tired of me. I feel a little hurt by this all, but maybe it's my own doing in part. I don't like myself sometimes, either. I don't think I'm a really bad husband/father, but I see plenty of areas for improvement.

 

[JohnDB]

My Two Cents,

If you are lookinf for me to take a side in this ongoing battle with you and your wife...I ain't gonna choose either one...because in certain respects you are doing the same thing as you are saying your wife does.

Since she isn't here...I can only address you.

Christmas and holidays are a time of year that everyone gets hyped up about a particular day. They demand that day off from work and do all they can to get wrapped up in some kind of majic that is supposed to happen on that particular day or time. (even if it is the night before)

But

That isn't the majic of Christmas. It never was and it always leads to dissapointment and resentment when the "majic" doesn't happen and the realization that the "majic" never existed (usually occurring about two minutes after all the wrapping paper is disposed of)

The real majic of Christmas occurs in the preparation for the day and not the day itself and it will reside much more in the memories of your children and you in getting ready for the day than actually any celebration really will. Baking Cookies, making gingerbread houses, decorating the house and tree, wrapping gifts and shopping are the things that you will do with your children that really will make the real majic happen for them and you. Not any one particular day described in the way that you are describing it.

Your wife really enjoys the Christmas special that she is working on for the church she attends. It means a lot to her....the performance of that special is the culmination of all that hard work and special memories that she feels stronly about. I can't reccomend asking her to give up something that means so much to her...after all you do love her and love sometimes means that what means nothing to you is cared for because it means so much to her.

Forget the day...work and focus on the preparations for that day...that is where the real majic exists anyway.

 

[royaltybyadoption]

JohnDB, excellent advice! Compromising from my end appears to be needed in this case. I will forget the day and try to have a fun time with the kids in the time before Christmas. I appreciate your time and thought towards my matter.

I've been thinking about this a lot and I seem to be taken aback by her reaction more than anything else. Giving in is not too difficult -- it's the things we said to each other that gets me pondering as to what is really happening.

 

[Autumnleaf]

She tries to include you in what she likes. You might want to try to include her in what you like. Do you like football or video games? Invite her into your interests so she can get a feel for what you are going through.

 

[royaltybyadoption]

She tries to include you in what she likes. You might want to try to include her in what you like. Do you like football or video games? Invite her into your interests so she can get a feel for what you are going through.

Yes, good point. That is one area that I have covered thoroughly. She is not interested in what I do. I had to practically drag her out to watch me perform on stage. And that was the only time she did -- even though I'm doing some event at least once a month.

The children's lives keep her mind full and she often says she doesn't have any more mental capacity left for me. It's true she is kept busy with the kids, but most of that is unnecessary. What I mean is, in Japan the folks here love to make simple things time consuming and overly-detailed. Ask any ex-pat in Japan and they'll tell you how the locals love their extra and meaningless paperwork and excessive emailing and faxing each other.

I used to make comments like, "Why don't we just simplify it? Let's just show up and take it as it comes." Or "Instead of a big detailed schedule for the kid's PTA event, why not just let them play basketball like they want to do, anyways?"

However, all of these comments get shot down because the mothers here all want to make everything a big time-consuming preparation fiasco.

So, as a result, every night my wife is exhausted and I'm helpless to do anything about it.

Moreover, New Year's in Japan is a big family event time where brothers and sisters bring their kids and go to grandmother's house. So in the two weeks leading up to this grand event, everyone in this country is super busy cleaning and taking care of loose ends at the company and/or shopping. That means Christmas day becomes just another normal work day only with extra overtime and busy PTA meetings, piano lessons, cram school pick-up/drop off, etc.

It's not until New Year's Eve when everything grinds to a halt and the streets are empty. Finally my wife goes into a relaxed mode and the TV comes on. If you walk around in any neighborhood in Japan during New Year's Eve or on New Year's Day, you will hear (from the empty streets) each and every single TV set tuned into the myriad of live specials and K1 fights. Nobody talks or does anything but sit glued to the tube.

That is what they busy themselves for. And THAT is why I requested Christmas Eve for some personal family time.

 

[JohnDB]

JohnDB, excellent advice! Compromising from my end appears to be needed in this case. I will forget the day and try to have a fun time with the kids in the time before Christmas. I appreciate your time and thought towards my matter.

I've been thinking about this a lot and I seem to be taken aback by her reaction more than anything else. Giving in is not too difficult -- it's the things we said to each other that gets me pondering as to what is really happening.

You are having an East meets West crisis. The two mindsets are kinda clashing over this. Your understanding is going to go a long way here...as well as your wife needs to learn some compromise as well....if that is going to be possible....I dunno. Neither is right or wrong once again.

Here is the thing. You are rather Westernized in your thinking. You see worship of God is incumbant upon each individual to perform with others. It ends and begins with you in a moment by moment chosen choice. When your life on earth is over you view that your worship here on earth is over. You will begin again in heaven. As is most people with the Western mindset believe.

Your wife has the Eastern mindset. They view God as being in all time...that this is where God exists as well. God is so vast and so eternal that any proper worship of God must exist in a large chunk of time for it to be of any value whatsoever...much much longer than any one person's lifespan. She is taking part in her forefather's worship of God. She is concerned with their worship and future generation's worship of God. This worship isn't her's and her contemporary's alone....they are only sharing in it while alive. They get to take part in it now but it never was theirs to begin with...if they do not promote and keep alive the tradition of worship of their forefathers they see this as being completely disrespectful to their spiritual forefathers and violating the "Honor your mother and father" commandment. Your wife feels the weight of her forefather's worship squarely on her shoulders. If she doesn't do this then their worship might get overlooked or seem way too small to God to be of any count at all.


It is one of what I call Time/Space collisions...

She is wanting you to join her with her forefather's worship....being part and taking part in a very very grand sized worship of God. Something that she feels is sure to please God. Getting the others of that community to invite you and want you to join them is a major and no minor deal...they are saying that yes, you can join in with their forefather's worship and be a part of a very grand worship of God with them....and will expect you to promote this worship for future generations to perform as well...never mind your best talents in creating music in a modern style...that isn't relevant at this worship to them. Your ability to copy and promote the ages past worship is what their real goal and desire is. It is out of the question for this generation to change it. It will absolutely kill this "grand worship" that they are doing and their forefather's will have been dishonored.

Changing it is out of the question entirely. Your being absolutely bored wth it is also going to be a real issue. Her reasons for real huge emotions over this are very real....

But...maybe there is a way...another night of the week if you and she could get a few others who have the same night off and worship in the style and manner that you prefer....yeah...ok..a lot of work is going to be involved with that....but who knows...maybe in a couple of hundred years your worship style that you create will be labored over in the same manner as you are of the average church in Japan now...LOL

 

[royaltybyadoption]

You've given me a lot to think about. I know we are having an East meets West scenario going on here. We've had one going on since we first married 17 years ago.
The hardest thing with us ever getting counseling has been this cross-cultural barrier.

I made a personal pact to never speak ill of her to other people. When we first married, I also asked her to do the same. That pact has served us both well.

This is the first time I've talked about our relationship because of that pact. I made an exception in this case because this is an anonymous forum. I chose this place because this is the first forum where I've seen this level of sensitivity, respect and decorum. I can see a troll or two, but they are everywhere anyways. It's easy to ignore them if you try.

 

[JohnDB]

Here is what...

You can demand (by virtue of being male and her husband) that she submit to your leadership in this matter because the bible does say that you are the spiritual leader of the home.

This won't be an easy scenario win either....not like it is sounding.

Your Job will have to take second place to worship...and you will need to find others to worship along side of you. She must feel like she is taking part of a grand worship or is promoting one accross time...as in generations to come. It is unfathonomable to think in the terms that you are...that is almost disposable to her.

Believe it or not....this line of thinking of hers concerning worship over generations was also present in many of the bible stories in the bible and in many of the sermons that Jesus gave. (man was not made for the sabbath but the sabbath for man)
Such and such king was buried with his fathers...and a whole host of other lessons can be really understood in a detail that most never understand as to what your wife does on these subjects.

somewhere along the way you two need to sit down and figure a way through this...Neither side is really wrong and neither side is really right in this either...both sides have something to bring to the table that has value and is good...

I do wish you the best of luck and you have my prayers.

 

[Cright]

My heart hurts for your situation. My cousin Kouki told me that Christmas is more of a lovers holiday than anything else in Japan. He said it's somewhat like we celebrate Valentine's day.It makes me wonder why her church is so insistant on doing something so long and drawn out.

I don't know that you'll get her to compromise on the day given what you've written about the situation. Since you both are Christians, I think that's where you should start... with Christ! First pray about it, second, ask your wife what Christmas means to her. Ask her WHY she celebrates Christmas, what it means to her relationship with Christ.

I would also ask her what marriage means to her. Do some research in your own bibles on what God says marriage is and what type of priority it needs to be in your highest next to your relationships with Christ.

I hope by asking her questions she will search herself for her motivations too. Hopefully she'll see that the two of you need to be more united that either of you to any local body of believers. It should not be a pastor and you against her or a pastor and her against you. It should be the TWO of you united and only giving the pastor the authority over you God has given him. Not him telling your family what you can and can't do... that is not the type of authority God gives to pastors of his flock!!

 

[scrofford]

Hi everyone. I'm new here, but glad to see such a diverse group of believers (and some non-believers as well) in one forum.

I don't know which type of Christian I would align myself with. I've known God for 19 years. I treasure my relationship with Him. However, like many here I've been burned by different churches in the past. Partly myself to blame for that as I know I can be overly-sensitive to authority figures.
My wife (who is Japanese) and I live in Japan and have two children together. She goes to a local church and is involved in various activities such as Sunday morning youth worship and singing on the worship team.

Because of my work, I am unable to attend the Sunday worship. However, to be honest, I'm would not be interested in attending even if I were not working.

Why? I find the services unedifying. It's party a cultural thing, but mostly it's because they insist on singing 150-year-old hymnals in archaic language and the structure is extremely formal. I find it stifling. The messages from the pulpit are rudimentary and unpractical.

The other members are nice, but they seem to be locked in to a pattern of thinking that seems based on legalities rather than an openness. Meaning: I always get the feeling they want me to perform more for their church (rather then just wanting to talk to another human being for the love of it.)

In the last year, my wife, along with the worship team leader have both taken it upon themselves to try to get me to be a part of the church more. They asked me to come and give them advice regarding certain worship songs (I used to be a worship music leader.) However, it turned out they never wanted advice but rather wanted me to join the team and play more of a part in the church membership.
I felt that was a bit deceiving.
Yesterday my wife and I had a heated disagreement when she once again announced she would be spending all of Christmas Eve at the church with their worship team rather than at home with me and the children. I had requested we could have Christmas Eve as a family event because it's the only event I have over here as part of my culture. We had agreed on that last year, but she forgot and now won't back out of the church service.

She says she feels I'm trying to steal her happiness by trying to get her away from the church. I don't want that. I want her to be happy, but just the one day of the year?
Am I being too harsh?

I know I'm not the best husband. I have apologized to her for my shortcomings. She can go and enjoy the Christmas Eve "celebration" at the church and I will bring to kids to take part. But every year the Eve event goes on and on and on and everyone is so somber with melancholic group prayer that continues for hours. My son and I don't find anything in that to identify with and my younger daughter just goes off to a back room to draw pictures with another girl. It doesn't feel like any Christmas I know. And we certainly don't do much as a family.
I would rather stay home and play games, maybe some bible reading and a short prayer time. Have some food with candles, etc.
But when I suggest that, she becomes defensive saying I'm just bitter about the church.

I want you to know that I appreciate how you feel however, it seems to me that you both are missing the point. It's not about the church or should I say about the service or what you do for the church. You can work your butt off in the church and give all of your time and money and effort and still it gets you no where.

It's about your relationship with Jesus. There are many people who go to church all the time and give all of their time and effort whom you won't see in Heaven. That's really sad but its true. It is called being religious. God doesn't want our religion. He wants relationship. And Christmas isn't about somber services or playing games or any of that. It is about our Lords birth and the gift He gave us which is Salvation.

I think you both need to step back and realize that God isn't interested in church services or whatever if you have no relationship with Him. Are you both Born Again? Is Jesus Lord of your lives? Does He rule your hearts? Those are the things important to God. It's so easy to miss this. I think you both need to really know Jesus.

 

[katautumn]

I made a personal pact to never speak ill of her to other people. When we first married, I also asked her to do the same. That pact has served us both well.

That is a very wise and considerate pact to make with your spouse. I don't gather from any of your posts here that you are speaking unkindly about your wife, just that you feel she is putting church before family which is a valid concern.

This is a difficult barrier to overcome, because many people feel church is the one time they feel closest to God. With that said, God is not the church and a person can experience the fullness of their faith without ever setting foot inside a church building. While church services can be a wonderful time of fellowship between like-minded individuals it should never come before your spouse or your children. God did not set up marriages so that church comes first. In fact, I believe in the Bible it is clear that husbands and wives should be of top priority, so long as the spouse is not asking the other to do something that would jeopardize their salvation. Missing some church services to nurture the family does not cause a person to lose their salvation.

Oftentimes people choose church first because it's a place where they can escape the hum drum of being at home with the spouse and kids. If the person is in any position of leadership or service within the church it can also create both a sense of obligation, purpose and importance that, perhaps, the person does not feel at home. I know from personal experience how tempting it is to use church as a means to feel special and needed when you're not being made to feel that way at home.

I wish I had some great words that would help. I don't know if, being of a certain cultural mindset, your wife would be willing to compromise on this. For example, attending for part of the service, but going home early with you and your children. No matter what I wish you the best. It sounds like a real sticky wicket for the both of you.

 

[royaltybyadoption]

I want you to know that I appreciate how you feel however, it seems to me that you both are missing the point....

It's about your relationship with Jesus....

I think you both need to step back and realize that God isn't interested in church services or whatever if you have no relationship with Him. Are you both Born Again? Is Jesus Lord of your lives? Does He rule your hearts? Those are the things important to God. It's so easy to miss this. I think you both need to really know Jesus.

Thanks for the words -- I think...
However, I don't think we are missing the point. And yes, we both know Jesus (did you even read my posts?) We are not discussing salvation, here. I think you might be missing the point, but thanks for trying.

Oftentimes people choose church first because it's a place where they can escape the hum drum of being at home with the spouse and kids.

I think you hit the nail on the head. The church events and preparation are her time to get away and be part of something fun and positive. I'm just hoping she remains aware that the denomination itself has a goal of trying to increase membership and in order to do so they strongly encourage (dare I say, 'coerce') members to put more time and energy into their programs. Currently her church is lacking younger members and they are trying to beef-up the numbers. I'm just not sure that is a godly way of doing ministry.

However, her happiness is important to me. I think we can compromise and attend the Christmas Eve service for a short while, at least, as a family. I'm hoping that next year's Christmas will prove to be different -- and we will discuss that further. I certainly don't want to make mountains out of molehills over this.

 

[Janelb08]

I think I agree more with scrofford. While I can see you both love Christ, and this isn't a matter of salvation, I DO think the point of Christmas is being misconstrewed. As was said before, it's not about the Evening services, or the presents, or the hype. It is about Christ and the fact that our Savior was born. And I think you both need to focus more on that.

I am glad to see that you are willing to attend the Evening service, so major props to you. It makes me sad that she forgot her promise to leave Christmas Eve open, but I think you are handling it very well so again, well done. I don't really have much else to say, accept that I agree with KatAutumn.

 

[scrofford]

Thanks for the words -- I think...
However, I don't think we are missing the point. And yes, we both know Jesus (did you even read my posts?) We are not discussing salvation, here. I think you might be missing the point, but thanks for trying.

I realize we aren't discussing salvation here, and yes I read your post. It just seems to me that both of your focus is off on whether you go to a service or not and whether she is involved and whether this or that.

I wasn't even talking about salvation. I hope you know that relationship with God goes way beyond that. It's not about your service to the church or what you do at different programs or which programs you do or don't go to.

What I was trying to say is you both should have your FOCUS on Jesus and then these issues would be trivial. But instead it looks like your focus is on doing stuff or not doing stuff.

 

[royaltybyadoption]

I realize we aren't discussing salvation here, and yes I read your post. It just seems to me that both of your focus is off on whether you go to a service or not and whether she is involved and whether this or that.

I wasn't even talking about salvation. I hope you know that relationship with God goes way beyond that. It's not about your service to the church or what you do at different programs or which programs you do or don't go to.

What I was trying to say is you both should have your FOCUS on Jesus and then these issues would be trivial. But instead it looks like your focus is on doing stuff or not doing stuff.

Thanks for your comments. I'm curious as to how you would apply "Focus on Jesus" to something other than what we are doing. It is a vague expression that gets tossed around the Christian community (much like the phrase, "Praise the Lord") but lacks real practicality.
I'm sorry, but your words sound like the same rhetoric that every evangelical church pulpit has been replicating for the last 40 years.

However, I will use your phrasing in this post. Focus on Jesus. Well, from my walk with God I'd have to say that Jesus lives in the details. He is there guiding my thoughts when I decide whether to use 'Minty Fresh' over 'Bright Spearmint' toothpaste. Jesus is a part of my thoughts when I concentrate on using my credit card or paying with cash at the gas station. Jesus has become a integral part of me (and my wife) and all functions of our life together and on our own.

All stuff we do or don't do is part of Him and through Him. He has brought us to a place where we have moved beyond the infant stages of vocally praying for each and every little decision to using His wisdom and allowing it to move through us. It's a part of growing up in the Lord.
I'm sure many here in this forum can relate to that growth process where God is alive in the details of life. Even though we don't shout out "Praise Jesus" and "Glory to God" throughout the day --- we KNOW --- we TRUST -- we LIVE --- as God would have us live. This is faith. And I believe this is maturity.

So please forgive me if I come off as sounding arrogant and full of myself. However, I challenge you and all who read this to try to reach out beyond your own cultural biases (I'm talking American-Christian culture, here) and grasp the full truth of God's Word. It's hard, I know, but you need to really step back from the Christianese language that permeates church life in North America and see the people and God moving in them. Avoid falling into the trappings and repeating the sermons of Evangelical America™ -- it is religion, as you so ironically labeled it.

You asked me, "are you both Born Again?" in capital letters. Why would you capitalize those words. Do you attribute some sort of mystic holiness to the two words "born again?" Does it mean something to you other than what the bible says in John 3:3,7? The Greek in that passage says "born from above." To answer your question -- yes, we are both born from above -- meaning we have a relationship with Christ who is an integral part of our lives.


I realize you were trying to point out that all of us need to continually look to God for guidance. I pointed out to you that we already do and that's a given in this situation.

That's like driving your car to the mechanic with engine troubles and the mechanic saying, "Did you put the key in the ignition? You can't drive a car without the key."