Is it fair to say Islam is a peaceful religion?

[chingchang]

Once again, the fact that the 9/11 hijackers were Muslim and that their actions were supported by Muslims does not make their acts an indictment of ALL Muslims or Islam in general, any more than the actions of the IRA, who are Catholics, and that their actions are supported by Catholics, make their acts an indictment of ALL Catholics or Catholicism in general.

True...but I'm talking about what the book says. That is what they teach. The Catholics our or in the IRA aren't really followers of Yeshua...they are more like a gang. Followers of Muhammad do what Muhammad did and what he taught. How many people did Yeshua kill? How many did Muhammad kill? Exactly. Islam is an expansive system intent on world domination...whether you want to admit it or not.

CC

 

[Archaeopteryx]

True...but I'm talking about what the book says. That is what they teach. The Catholics our or in the IRA aren't really followers of Yeshua...they are more like a gang. Followers of Muhammad do what Muhammad did and what he taught. How many people did Yeshua kill? How many did Muhammad kill? Exactly. Islam is an expansive system intent on world domination...whether you want to admit it or not.

CC

Isn't virtually every major religion bent on some form of domination? They all claim, in the end, that their religion, the one true religion, will rule the world. I have difficulty believing that there is a single religion that does not, in the end, proclaim its own superiority, its own victory, and ultimately its own dominion over all life.

 

[LightHorseman]

True...but I'm talking about what the book says. That is what they teach. The Catholics our or in the IRA aren't really followers of Yeshua...they are more like a gang. Followers of Muhammad do what Muhammad did and what he taught. How many people did Yeshua kill? How many did Muhammad kill? Exactly.

Ah, but then you get into the whole argument about how much are Christians meant to follow from the Bible that is the words of people OTHER than Jesus? Paul, for instance...

Islam is an expansive system intent on world domination...whether you want to admit it or not.

CC

The case could be made that several other religions, including Christianity, are equally prone to expansion and domination, could it not? Again, how many people are Christian today because their ancestors were converted at the point of the sword?

Once again, not claiming that Islam is not, as you say, expansionist and prone to dominating by force, merely pointing out that this is not a trait unique to Islam, and it seems, to me at least, unreasonable to condemn Islam alone for something common to many other faiths.

 

[Mystman]

True...but I'm talking about what the book says. That is what they teach. The Catholics our or in the IRA aren't really followers of Yeshua...they are more like a gang. Followers of Muhammad do what Muhammad did and what he taught. How many people did Yeshua kill? How many did Muhammad kill? Exactly. Islam is an expansive system intent on world domination...whether you want to admit it or not.

CC

Humanity is an expansive system intent on world domination. I mean, just look at the US. A supposedly "Christian" nation (and thus, not aggressive/expansive?) that just happens to be in a place that used to be inhabited by a bunch of pagans, that just happened to have disappeared for some reason, and that is now with some regularity invading other nations, toppling unfriendly regimes, etc.

Or take the combined Christian European powers, who actually came quite close to world domination.
File:The British Empire.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
File:Spanish Empire Anachronous 0.PNG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
French colonial empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I mean.. that's the work of supposedly peaceful and non-expansionist Christians.

And sure, now you're going to say that the people who conquered all those territories weren't "real Christians", but then I refer you to my previous post. Which is the more aggressive/expansionist religion: the one with the verses talking about how to wage war, or the one that actually wages war all the freaking time?

 

[LightHorseman]

Isn't virtually every major religion bent on some form of domination? They all claim, in the end, that their religion, the one true religion, will rule the world. I have difficulty believing that there is a single religion that does not, in the end, proclaim its own superiority, its own victory, and ultimately its own dominion over all life.

In fairness, there are a number of religions that are somewhat exclusionist in their theology, and don't believe that they will dominate the world. Judaism is a good example. Thats why you don't find many Jewish missionaries, they don't seek to convert others to the cause of Judaism. Several other religions are like this... mainstream Hinduism and Budhism are fairly non-missionary. All these religions do, of course, claim to be the one true religion (all religions do, I think) but they just don't seek to share their superior religion with non believers, and are happy to be superior and aloof.

 

[chingchang]

This is a double standard verging on doublethink.

No it isn't.

Violent Christians exist, and violence has been conducted in the name of Christianity. The crusades and the Inquisitionspring to mind most readily, and these most certainly were performed by real Christians.

Nope. Real Christians obey the commands of Christ...that is very simple...and Biblical. During the Crusades Christians didn't read the book...most people couldn't read. The Catholic Chuch told people what to believe and what they could and could not do. Now...every Christian owns a Bible and most Christians can read it...no more secrets. Every Christian knows that Christ taught love and did not advocate violence.

No true Scotsmaning away violent Christians and saying "well they aren't REAL Christians" could be a valid stance. However the fact that you refuse to allow moderate Muslims the same courtesy makes it unreasonable.
Islam and Christianity both feature texts that could be used in support of violence (indeed, some of them are the same texts) to claim one is inherently peaceful while the other is not is NOT the conclussion of a non biased observer.

No...it is the conclusion of someone who is thoroughly knowledgeable on all-things-Bible and sufficiently knowledgeable on the teachings of the Qur'an. The Muslims that claim to be "moderate" either don't believe that the Qur'an is Holy or don't understand it...or don't care. Either way...the Clerics teach and the people are expected to submit. Islam is a religion of submission...that is the main theme of Islam.

Either they re both peaceful, but perverted to justify violence by misled extremists, or they ae both inherently violent.

Says you...but you obviously don't know enough about either religion to know the basis for either. You are observing and making judgements. They aren't both peaceful. Christianity is peaceful...but perverted to justify violence and Islam is violent...but lied about to seem peaceful.

But holding one to one standard and the other to a different standard for little reason other than to the cmp to which you belong is unreasonable, and, contrary to the New commandment to treat others as you would be treated, into the bargain.

Nice try. You seriously need to familiarize yourself with Islam.

YouTube - Biggest Lie Ever told

CC

 

[chingchang]

Isn't virtually every major religion bent on some form of domination? They all claim, in the end, that their religion, the one true religion, will rule the world. I have difficulty believing that there is a single religion that does not, in the end, proclaim its own superiority, its own victory, and ultimately its own dominion over all life.

No. Only people who don't know much of the religions think that. For the record...I'm anti-religion.

CC

 

[chingchang]

Ah, but then you get into the whole argument about how much are Christians meant to follow from the Bible that is the words of people OTHER than Jesus? Paul, for instance...

Fine then...Paul didn't instruct people to kill either.

The case could be made that several other religions, including Christianity, are equally prone to expansion and domination, could it not? Again, how many people are Christian today because their ancestors were converted at the point of the sword?

People actively chose to be Christian or not to be. Once you're a Muslim...good luck getting out. Leaving Islam is punishable by DEATH! Folks that have left Islam and are now in a different religion or are atheist fear for their lives. I can back that up if you're not aware of that.

Once again, not claiming that Islam is not, as you say, expansionist and prone to dominating by force, merely pointing out that this is not a trait unique to Islam, and it seems, to me at least, unreasonable to condemn Islam alone for something common to many other faiths.

While it may be true that any religion is "prone" to expansionism...Islam is DESIGNED for it.

CC

 

[chingchang]

Humanity is an expansive system intent on world domination.

Yeah...I know...we're a parasitic virus on the Earth...yada-ya-ya.

I mean, just look at the US. A supposedly "Christian" nation (and thus, not aggressive/expansive?) that just happens to be in a place that used to be inhabited by a bunch of pagans, that just happened to have disappeared for some reason, and that is now with some regularity invading other nations, toppling unfriendly regimes, etc.

Your point? Nothing new under the sun?

Or take the combined Christian European powers, who actually came quite close to world domination.
File:The British Empire.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
File:Spanish Empire Anachronous 0.PNG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
French colonial empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I mean.. that's the work of supposedly peaceful and non-expansionist Christians.

Key word "supposedly".

And sure, now you're going to say that the people who conquered all those territories weren't "real Christians", but then I refer you to my previous post. Which is the more aggressive/expansionist religion: the one with the verses talking about how to wage war, or the one that actually wages war all the freaking time?

What I'm talking about is design. Compare the actions and teachings of Muhammad to Yeshua. The difference is night and day...

CC

 

[Mystman]

What I'm talking about is design. Compare the actions and teachings of Muhammad to Yeshua. The difference is night and day...

CC

k. In that case, Christianity is faulty by design. Or at least, it's not very effective in turning "believers" into people who actually do what God wants them to do.


Going somewhat off-topic.. All of those people who think that they're Christians but who're actually not.. are they going to be burning in Hell for eternity? If so, bit cruel, don't you think. Maybe it would've helped if God had coordinated His expectations and our nature a bit more..

 

[chingchang]

In that case, Christianity is faulty by design. Or at least, it's not very effective in turning "believers" into people who actually do what God wants them to do.

Yes.

Going somewhat off-topic.. All of those people who think that they're Christians but who're actually not.. are they going to be burning in Hell for eternity? If so, bit cruel, don't you think. Maybe it would've helped if God had coordinated His expectations and our nature a bit more.

Can you reconcile "God is love" with people burning in hell enternally? I can't. So...either God is cruel...or people won't burn in hell eternally. That is rather simplistic...but for people that like to learn I highly recommend the following book:

Amazon.com: Two Views of Hell: A Biblical & Theological Dialogue (Spectrum) (9780830822553): Edward William Fudge…

CC

 

[chingchang]

Hard to believe...but actually a subjective video from what one might think would be a bias source:

YouTube - The Brutal Truth About Islam

 

[Charlie Milles]

It's really shocking to see atheists so vehemently defend Islam.

 

[Belk]

It is very telling that some are so blinded to their own double think. Amazing what the human mind can do.

 

[Mystman]

It's really shocking to see atheists so vehemently defend Islam.

Eh. I'm just very contrary by nature. Attack Islam, and I'll defend it. Defend Islam, and I'll attack it. Same goes for Christianity, homosexuals, abortions, McDonald's "food", president Obama, president Bush, etc etc..

If everyone just agrees with each other, we can't have any discussions.. And being able to argue for both sides will give you a greater understanding of an issue than if you always take the same side I think =)

 

[Charlie Milles]

Eh. I'm just very contrary by nature. Attack Islam, and I'll defend it. Defend Islam, and I'll attack it. Same goes for Christianity, homosexuals, abortions, McDonald's "food", president Obama, president Bush, etc etc..

If everyone just agrees with each other, we can't have any discussions.. And being able to argue for both sides will give you a greater understanding of an issue than if you always take the same side I think =)

Fair enough, well put.

 

[SithDoughnut]

It's really shocking to see atheists so vehemently defend Islam.

I won't defend Islam. However, I will defend Muslims if necessary. People often fail to tell the difference between a holy book and the people who follow it in some way or another. Islam says plenty of awful things, but plenty of Muslims ignore the more ridiculous statements.

 

[r035198x]

... Islam says plenty of awful things, but plenty of Muslims ignore the more ridiculous statements.

That's not what the Muslims who posted here are saying. I doubt any of them will agree with you when you say their books say ridiculous statements either.

 

[LightHorseman]

While it may be true that any religion is "prone" to expansionism...Islam is DESIGNED for it.

CC

And yet there are more Christians in the world than Muslims. So which is more expansionist?

 

[Charlie Milles]

I won't defend Islam. However, I will defend Muslims if necessary. People often fail to tell the difference between a holy book and the people who follow it in some way or another. Islam says plenty of awful things, but plenty of Muslims ignore the more ridiculous statements.

Of course they do, sure. But it seems, to me, that criticizing or berating Islam is grounds for being labeled a bigot by secularists or atheists. Somehow, if I read the Qu'ran as combative or tribalistic, I'm nothing more than an ignorant chauvinist.
Note, to whom it may concern: defending, tolerating and encouraging religious ritual and belief, be it Islamic or otherwise, is not helping the secular cause.