Is God ultimately responsible for evil?

[YouAreAwesome]

The idea that human reality is just a figment of God's imagination would mean that God is just sitting in heaven imagining humans committing murder, rape, deceit, and indulging in inappropriate contentography.

This doesn't sound like the imagination of God. It sounds like the imagination of demons.
Maybe it wasn't a God experience.

"And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light." -- (2 Cor 11:14).

Woah! Slow down there soldier! A bit harsh!

 

[ToBeLoved]

You're not getting it.

No, I am flat out telling you that, all people and the whole universe, is a figment of God's imagination. No reality, no bloodshed, no blame.

You should know this. There is only One begotten.

Ummm.... This is something I have never heard before. Have no idea what to say except that this is way out there.

But I do have a question, what is the point that you are trying to make about their only being One Begotten? We know that this is the Son of God who became Jesus Christ, but I'm not getting how that goes with the rest of your post.

 

[Doveaman]

The Bible doesn't say that God takes responsibility for evil. The Bible says that through His great love for us, the Father sent His Only Son to die for our sins. To reconcile us back to God.

Jesus took the penalty for sin. God is not responsible for evil.

"For you know that it was not with perishable things...but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world" -- (1 Peter 1:18-20).

Christ was chosen as a sin sacrifice even before man was created or sinned.

This means that God knew man would sin even before he created man.

If God knew that man would sin but created man anyway, this would mean that God is in some way responsible for sin coming into the world.

This is in part why God chose Christ before the creation of the world to account for sin even before the sin was committed.

 

[ToBeLoved]

"For you know that it was not with perishable things...but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world" -- (1 Peter 1:18-20).

Christ was chosen as a sin sacrifice even before man was created or sinned.

This means that God knew man would sin even before he created man.

If God knew that man would sin but created man anyway, this would mean that God is in some way responsible for sin.

I disagree. Wouldn't it be irresponsible of God in a way and I am giving lots of leniency to this thought, for God not to figure out what He would do if His creation sinned?

But if we really think about it, who else was there but God Himself who could lead a sinless life to reverse the curse of sin?

What I believe is that because God is Omnipresent that He knows the beginning from the end. So in that light I have no problem with this verse at all.

Thinking how we think it's hard to understand that God is not held to time as we know it on earth. Time was created for the earth, not that God is held to it. It was created as part of our reality.

In some respect we have to see God how He is and not try to figure out God according to our way of thinking.

In His Word, God tells us "My ways are not your ways, My ways are higher than your ways". I don't think we can look at God from our standpoint, we must see God as His Word says He is.

 

[Doveaman]

So are all now under submission to the LORD in which case no one now that the LORD has conquered sin by THE CROSS can possibly do the woejsvif the kingdom of darkness?

Now all are walking in THE LIGHT and able to discern the works of the kingdom of LIGHT from the works of the wrong kingdom and wrong father?

"There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." -- (Rom 8:1-2).

As long as they are all in Christ they'll be fine.

 

[Doveaman]

I disagree. Wouldn't it be irresponsible of God in a way and I am giving lots of leniency to this thought, for God not to figure out what He would do if His creation sinned?

But if we really think about it, who else was there but God Himself who could lead a sinless life to reverse the curse of sin?

What I believe is that because God is Omnipresent that He knows the beginning from the end. So in that light I have no problem with this verse at all.

Thinking how we think it's hard to understand that God is not held to time as we know it on earth. Time was created for the earth, not that God is held to it. It was created as part of our reality.

In some respect we have to see God how He is and not try to figure out God according to our way of thinking.

If you knew the child would drown in the pool and you threw him into the pool, are you not responsible?

If God knew Adam would sin in the world and God threw him into the world, is God not responsible?

Satan is accountable for influencing man to sin.

Man is accountable for committing sin.

God is accountable for allowing sin.

In His Word, God tells us "My ways are not your ways, My ways are higher than your ways". I don't think we can look at God from our standpoint, we must see God as His Word says He is.

Maybe God's way is not your way.

 

[ToBeLoved]

If you knew the child would drown in the pool and you threw him into the pool, are you not responsible?

If God knew Adam would sin in the world and God threw him into the world, is God not responsible?

Man is responsible for committing sin.

God is responsible for allowing sin.
Maybe God's way is not your way.

If you are going to read things into God's Word based on your own understanding, you will not easily understand God's Word.

To foreknow something because you know all things is not the same as creating evil. For God to give His creation free will that could be acted upon, they must have choice A and choice B. One does not really have free will if they can only act one way.

So, it is and was and will always be God's prerogative to create His creation to be what He wants them to be. With giving them free will He definitely knew they could mess up and of course knowing all He did know they would. But because God already knows then, He should not create humanity?

That would be punishing us before we ever existed for Adam's sin. And punishing us to the point of never creating us. One could go really far with this to the point that God should have not created ever or robots if He created.

 

[ToBeLoved]

If you are going to read things into God's Word based on your own understanding, you will not easily understand God's Word.

To foreknow something because you know all things is not the same as creating evil. For God to give His creation free will that could be acted upon, they must have choice A and choice B. One does not really have free will if they can only act one way.

So, it is and was and will always be God's prerogative to create His creation to be what He wants them to be. With giving them free will He definitely knew they could mess up and of course knowing all He did know they would. But because God already knows then, He should not create humanity?

That would be punishing us before we ever existed for Adam's sin. And punishing us to the point of never creating us. One could go really far with this to the point that God should have not created ever or robots if He created. Would not be fun to be a robot, I must say.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

"For you know that it was not with perishable things...but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world" -- (1 Peter 1:18-20).

Christ was chosen as a sin sacrifice even before man was created or sinned.

This means that God knew man would sin even before he created man.

If God knew that man would sin but created man anyway, this would mean that God is in some way responsible for sin coming into the world.

This is in part why God chose Christ before the creation of the world to account for sin even before the sin was committed.

Or it means God had a plan IF man did choose to break relationship

 

[Doveaman]

Woah! Slow down there soldier! A bit harsh!

That post was not sent to you.

 

[miknik5]

Or it means God had a plan IF man did choose to break relationship

Even those who had not sinned (reference Romans 5)

 

[Doveaman]

Or it means God had a plan IF man did choose to break relationship

With God there is no "IF".

"I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please." -- (Isaiah 46:9-10)

An all knowing God doesn't need a backup plan in case his first plan fails.

God's purpose never fails.

God makes decisions based on what he already knows to be true.

God knew Judas would commit evil by betraying Christ, but he made Judas a disciple anyway.

God used the evil of Judas to achieve his purpose.

This is also true about the evil committed by Satan and by Adam.

God uses evil to achieve his purpose.

 

[Doveaman]

If you are going to read things into God's Word based on your own understanding, you will not easily understand God's Word.

To foreknow something because you know all things is not the same as creating evil.

Hey, I never said God created evil. I said he allowed evil, even though he could have prevented it, which makes him accountable in some away.

For God to give His creation free will that could be acted upon, they must have choice A and choice B. One does not really have free will if they can only act one way.

I agree.

But God knows in advance what we will freely choose and he plans accordingly.

So, it is and was and will always be God's prerogative to create His creation to be what He wants them to be. With giving them free will He definitely knew they could mess up and of course knowing all He did know they would. But because God already knows then, He should not create humanity?

Again, I am agreeing with you here.

God created humanity knowing they will mess up. But God also knew he could use our mess to achieve his purpose.

That would be punishing us before we ever existed for Adam's sin. And punishing us to the point of never creating us. One could go really far with this to the point that God should have not created ever or robots if He created.

Well God did create us even though he knew we would mess up.

This is because humanity's mess was always a part of God's eternal purpose for humanity.

"For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God." -- (Rom 8:20-21).

As the saying goes: "God created an eternal message (the gospel) out of humanity's mess".

"For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." -- (Rom 11:32).

Satan didn't get the message, but hopefully we will.

 

[ScottA]

True, thanks. Nevertheless I would still like to know how it all came about because seemingly needless tragedy needs explanation that retains His Love.

You are still seeing this world as reality. There is no "needless tragedy"...this is a falsehood, a fabrication, a hypothetical enactment - this is us being who we are and doing what we do, for which we are judged. But just as the reality of God is "I am"...we too are who we are, and this is all just a demon-stration of it, wherein there is no actual bloodshed. It is best described as a dream...for, as it is written, we sleepeth and are in slumber. But to your daughter, "make believe" is the better term.

 

[ScottA]

The idea that human reality is just a figment of God's imagination would mean that God is just sitting in heaven imagining humans committing murder, rape, deceit, and indulging in inappropriate contentography.

This doesn't sound like the imagination of God. It sounds like the imagination of demons.
Maybe it wasn't a God experience.

"And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light." -- (2 Cor 11:14).

If it seems foreign to you - it is. But your own imagination is not that of God's, His thoughts are higher...so your response...is just wrong. God dividing light from darkness simply reveals such evils as you have described, and He has done it apart from His holiness. Which I have described as less than real by our definition. On the contrary, God is real...and this...this is like a dream that passes when we awaken.

As for my experience...I have confirmation (as I said), it was indeed God.

 

[ScottA]

Ummm.... This is something I have never heard before. Have no idea what to say except that this is way out there.

But I do have a question, what is the point that you are trying to make about their only being One Begotten? We know that this is the Son of God who became Jesus Christ, but I'm not getting how that goes with the rest of your post.

The point of there being only One begotten...is that history is His story - not ours (unless we are "in Him"). The manifestation of all things of the world is the image and setting for the revelation of Jesus Christ. As His body, we share in what is written of Him. I say "written" because that is the correct terminology for our circumstance, not being real as we define real, but being told through the medium of time, space and matter: the books of life are opened in revelation.

So, then, if you can believe that there is only One begotten, believe also that the rest of what we consider real...is of no account with God.

Reality is God's, and only "in Christ" shall we come to see it.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

"For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God."

There's a lot to be said about this verse. But my view will take this thread on a tangent. All I'll say is, I don't agree with the way you have interpreted it.

The point of there being only One begotten...is that history is His story - not ours (unless we are "in Him"). The manifestation of all things of the world is the image and setting for the revelation of Jesus Christ. As His body, we share in what is written of Him. I say "written" because that is the correct terminology for our circumstance, not being real as we define real, but being told through the medium of time, space and matter: the books of life are opened in revelation.

So, then, if you can believe that there is only One begotten, believe also that the rest of what we consider real...is of no account with God.

Reality is God's, and only "in Christ" shall we come to see it.

Have you seen The Matrix? It sounds very similar.
Question: Was Jesus' death real? Or not real (as in, He died in the lesser reality, the dream place that we live in now from your perspective).

 

[Doveaman]

If it seems foreign to you - it is.

It sure is foreign.

In your opinion, murder isn’t real, rape isn’t real, inappropriate contentography isn’t real, bloodshed isn't real (including the bloodshed of Christ).

It’s all just God sitting on his throne entertaining himself with those evil thoughts.

Doesn't sound like a holy God to me.

But your own imagination is not that of God's, His thoughts are higher...so your response...is just wrong.

This would mean that your response is wrong too since God's thoughts are higher than your thoughts as well.

As for my experience...I have confirmation (as I said), it was indeed God.

Personal confirmation is not convincing to anyone else.

How many cults were started by "personal confirmation" from God?

 

[Abraxos]

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

This verse can be looked at a number of ways, but it shows God knew the consequences of bringing light into existence.

 

[Doveaman]

There's a lot to be said about this verse. But my view will take this thread on a tangent. All I'll say is, I don't agree with the way you have interpreted it.

If you cannot share your view with me I will simply continue to be convinced that I'm right.