miknik5

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When GOD showed up HE terrified Job with HIS rebuke to HIM about where was
Job when HE was laying the foundations?

GOD healed Job and Job understood GOD's SIVEREIGNTY in all situations. That nothing was outside GOD's control and Job saw himself for what he is. Dust, flesh, a temporal vessel in relation to GOD and that is what he relented of.

He didn't attribute blame or curse GOD for any of the wrongdoing like his wife encouraged him to do. He just did not fully understand all that GOD was at work in doing

Jobs situation is in service to the children of Jacob who will also enter into a season of Job and the one work that they are to do is to wait

Blessed the man who waits 1335 days and does not "go out"

Not by power or by might, not by the sword

But by HIS SPIRIT
Unfortunately as Daniel prophecied there will be violenten of the covenant who, by what they do, will make manifest that they did not know their GOD!
 
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tatteredsoul

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Hi,

I have been a Christian for pretty much my whole life. I'm 35.

Recently I've been attempting to nut out whether the attributes of the God I believe in make sense to the actual world we live in. Here is the problem I'm attempting to solve in a way that I feel satisfied.

1. God has no equal, only lesser
2. God only creates lesser creations
3. Every creation is constrained by God in at least one way otherwise the creation would be equal to God
2. God created the devil
3. The devil is the root of all evil
4. God did not constrain the potential for evil 5.
God is ultimately responsible for evil

Point 4 is a new thought for me. Even though God put all sorts of other constraints on the devil, he still allowed the potential for evil.

Free will does not answer this problem because heaven will be filled with free creatures. If heaven is the ultimate destination then God could have created heaven first, with constraints on the potential for evil. I can still be free to choose if I want an apple or an orange. I can still choose to marry my wife rather than another girl. I can still choose to walk or run. I am still free in heaven but in heaven there will be no potential for evil.

But instead God decided to create the devil with the potential for evil.

I don't understand why God would want to involve evil and suffering to any existence ever.

Thanks

I used to wonder similar things, but after being around humans, and entities that act human for enough years I have come to the conclusion that HUMANS are responsible for evil.

Humans complain about things without putting in effort to fix or determine them.

Humans turn a blind eye to local suffering - even if they turn their focus to wider need.

Humans promote sin.

Humans promote suffering through ignorance

Humans promote violence through violence, disdain, incredulity and ego.

Humans hurt humans.

Humans allow other humans to make grandiose decisions on their behalf, on the security of political "promise."

Humans promote racism.

Humans rape.

Humans lie.

Humans murder.

Humans steal.

Humans are envious.

Humans promote profit over providence.

Humans warp the natural laws to fit their own images.

Humans kill their own kind for sport.

Humans kill other creatures for sport.

Humans believe (ego) they are the only entities worth consideration in terms of pain, spirit, emotion and love.

Humans believe they suffer at the hand of outside forces, when it is at their own hand.


God didn't do this; we did. We do. We embraced the dualism of "knowledge of good and evil," believing it was better than Life. We still choose duality over unity.
 
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YouAreAwesome

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I used to wonder similar things, but after being around humans, and entities that act human for enough years I have come to the conclusion that HUMANS are responsible for evil.

Humans complain about things without putting in effort to fix or determine them.

Humans turn a blind eye to local suffering - even if they turn their focus to wider need.

Humans promote sin.

Humans promote suffering through ignorance

Humans promote violence through violence, disdain, incredulity and ego.

Humans hurt humans.

Humans allow other humans to make grandiose decisions on their behalf, on the security of political "promise."

Humans promote racism.

Humans rape.

Humans lie.

Humans murder.

Humans steal.

Humans are envious.

Humans promote profit over providence.

Humans warp the natural laws to fit their own images.

Humans kill their own kind for sport.

Humans kill other creatures for sport.

Humans believe (ego) they are the only entities worth consideration in terms of pain, spirit, emotion and love.

Humans believe they suffer at the hand of outside forces, when it is at their own hand.


God didn't do this; we did. We do. We embraced the dualism of "knowledge of good and evil," believing it was better than Life. We still choose duality over unity.
Yes and so you believe in free will in such a way that God is not responsible for the choices of His free creations. I am here also however I would say Satan "created" evil initially, then humans believed Satans lies and today humans also "create" evil.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Yes and so you believe in free will in such a way that God is not responsible for the choices of His free creations. I am here also however I would say Satan "created" evil initially, then humans believed Satans lies and today humans also "create" evil.
I think that is a pretty good way of putting it. We are creator's of evil. Sinful people.
 
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YouAreAwesome

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I think that is a pretty good way of putting it. We are creator's of evil. Sinful people.
Heh, thanks, I would word it "were sinners" (past tense) about Christians today as you know from the other thread . Because I believe Christians are righteous people who may sometimes sin. But this just me being picky .
 
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SolomonVII

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I do not read Job this way either. Here is a lengthy post on my take on Job.

.....Now the question is, of what was Job repenting? Of what does a righteous man (Job 1:1) need to repent?

....So what was it that Job needed to change in his way of thinking?

We learn of Job's attitude towards God in Job 1:5 where he continually offered sacrifices for his children before God just in case God was angry with them or they had sinned. We see that Job was afraid of God's wrath and feared for the lives of his family.

Now as we make our way through the conversations between Job and his friends we find that Job changes his thinking in this way; while at first he didn't charge God with wrong, over time he does begin to charge God with wrong. For example he says of God, "For the arrows of the Almighty are within me" (Job 6:4) and "How long? Will You not look away from me, And let me alone till I swallow my saliva?" (7:19) etc. I believe it is because Job charges God for suffering that Job needed to repent; for distrusting God.

.... My main contention here is, why did Job repent if God was in fact allowing Job to be afflicted by Satan? I believe Job was repenting of charging God with his suffering. He was repenting of the very worldview that the 'God is in control' message promotes.
I think that you have given a sound analysis, and I doubt that my rebuttal of the points would do it justice.
Briefly, I do agree that there is a change in Job, a metanoia, a repentance, a change of consciousness even as to the nature of who God is, and the nature of righteousness. Job emerges from his encounter with evil and with God with a clearer understanding of what role righteousness plays, and who God is through his encounter.
I do not however see the pivotal point as his repentance of his fear of God, or his scrupulosity in ritual. Indeed fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and Jewish sages contend that fear of God is much a more effective weapon in the individual's determination to remain of good character and behavior than profound understanding of the nature of the Divine ever could be.
His fear of God is not something that Job repented from, and it is not something that he ever took too far in his discourse with God either, although he did indeed take his questions to the very precipice.
The new realization that Job came to is that does not revolve around repentance of his fear of God, I don't think. Rather it centres on a new understanding that the relationship between righteousness and blessing is not a direct one. It is definitely not cause and effect; ritual as magic had already been rejected by ancient peoples at this point, but the metanoia was one of recognizing that we do not earn our blessings or merit our punishments through own righteousness or our own evil. For lack of a better word, and to continue on a theme already being developed here, there is a (limited) randomness between righteousness and blessing, and sin and punishment. This is not something that Job understood even to the slightest degree at the beginning of his trials. His understanding was the same as that of those around him, both in the story itself, and in the ancient world. Blessings and curses are according to Karma. People are rewarded or slighted in direct proportion to their own righteousness, or lack thereof.

But as it turned out, that was not just true.


...We learn how Job was wrong about God when he declared, "Though He slay me, I will trust in Him"...

To accept your argument we would have to accept that Job did go to far, and to accept that would be to go back into the mindset that Job merited his punishment after all, for bearing false witness against God here. That would compromise the message that the relationship between righteousness and punishment, sin and punishment is not a direct one. There would be a reason to punish Job if this was true.
Moreover, we would have to accept the idea that a God whose hands are tied is something less than an all-powerful being.

I think that your analysis was a good one, well thought out and all.
But the fact that God did step in when he chose to describes a world where he could have stepped in at any time prior to that. His hands were never tied.
The message to be learned here is not to fear " the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell" any less. It is to realize that God does not order the universe according to the laws of Karma.
 
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YouAreAwesome

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I think that you have given a sound analysis, and I doubt that my rebuttal of the points would do it justice.
Briefly, I do agree that there is a change in Job, a metanoia, a repentance, a change of consciousness even as to the nature of who God is, and the nature of righteousness. Job emerges from his encounter with evil and with God with a clearer understanding of what role righteousness plays, and who God is through his encounter.
I do not however see the pivotal point as his repentance of his fear of God, or his scrupulosity in ritual. Indeed fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and Jewish sages contend that fear of God is much a more effective weapon in the individual's determination to remain of good character and behavior than profound understanding of the nature of the Divine ever could be.
His fear of God is not something that Job repented from, and it is not something that he ever took too far in his discourse with God either, although he did indeed take his questions to the very precipice.
The new realization that Job came to is that does not revolve around repentance of his fear of God, I don't think. Rather it centres on a new understanding that the relationship between righteousness and blessing is not a direct one. It is definitely not cause and effect; ritual as magic had already been rejected by ancient peoples at this point, but the metanoia was one of recognizing that we do not earn our blessings or merit our punishments through own righteousness or our own evil. For lack of a better word, and to continue on a theme already being developed here, there is a (limited) randomness between righteousness and blessing, and sin and punishment. This is not something that Job understood even to the slightest degree at the beginning of his trials. His understanding was the same as that of those around him, both in the story itself, and in the ancient world. Blessings and curses are according to Karma. People are rewarded or slighted in direct proportion to their own righteousness, or lack thereof.

But as it turned out, that was not just true.




To accept your argument we would have to accept that Job did go to far, and to accept that would be to go back into the mindset that Job merited his punishment after all, for bearing false witness against God here. That would compromise the message that the relationship between righteousness and punishment, sin and punishment is not a direct one. There would be a reason to punish Job if this was true.
Moreover, we would have to accept the idea that a God whose hands are tied is something less than an all-powerful being.

I think that your analysis was a good one, well thought out and all.
But the fact that God did step in when he chose to describes a world where he could have stepped in at any time prior to that. His hands were never tied.
The message to be learned here is not to fear " the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell" any less. It is to realize that God does not order the universe according to the laws of Karma.

Thank you for replying with thoughtfulness and gentle criticism. My understanding of Job came through revelation rather than studious book study. I will attempt to defend it.

A Jewish Sage understands fear very well because the Mosaic covenant held God as responsible for both punishing and defending Israel. Under that covenant God appeared quite out of character, He was veiled by the covenant. On the hand it is the kindness of God that leads men to repentance. I fear /honour/respect God because He is all-powerful not because I'm scared He'll slay me.

Does the karmic repentance you talk of make sense to "though He slay me I will trust in Him"? Doesn't this show that Job believes God is slaying him despite his own righteousness?

I don't think my view encourages karma. I think the devil can attempt to attack people of all different spiritual places but it's especially easy when we sin and don't understand how to remove the access points. Further, our inner world is most important. Not riches or external blessing.

I believe God is all-powerful but doesn't always exercise His power in every instance. Not because He allows evil directly, but because He created our world with free agents who can choose for His involvement or not. I don't think this undermines His power, it is to His pleasure that our world is free and not under His complete and specific control.
 
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SolomonVII

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Thank you for replying with thoughtfulness and gentle criticism. My understanding of Job came through revelation rather than studious book study. I will attempt to defend it.

A Jewish Sage understands fear very well because the Mosaic covenant held God as responsible for both punishing and defending Israel. Under that covenant God appeared quite out of character, He was veiled by the covenant. On the hand it is the kindness of God that leads men to repentance. I fear /honour/respect God because He is all-powerful not because I'm scared He'll slay me.

Does the karmic repentance you talk of make sense to "though He slay me I will trust in Him"? Doesn't this show that Job believes God is slaying him despite his own righteousness?

I don't think my view encourages karma. I think the devil can attempt to attack people of all different spiritual places but it's especially easy when we sin and don't understand how to remove the access points. Further, our inner world is most important. Not riches or external blessing.

I believe God is all-powerful but doesn't always exercise His power in every instance. Not because He allows evil directly, but because He created our world with free agents who can choose for His involvement or not. I don't think this undermines His power, it is to His pleasure that our world is free and not under His complete and specific control.
I think that one miscommunication needs to be cleared up before anything, and that would be that I contend in any way that 'your view would encourage Karmic thinking'. The perspective of virtually every 20th century Christian is very much different than the point of view of Job at the beginning of his story in the Bible. Because of Job, and more than that, because of Jesus Christ, we are all very much of an understanding that recognizes that the boundless goodness and Providence of God, like salvation itself, is unmerited, and a free gift, unearned in any way. The rejection of the karmic worldview describes Job's metanoia, and not either of ours. I would not want to leave the impression that that is what I think of your point of view in any way.

Now, the quotation "though He slay me I will trust in Him" probably does describe a more fundamental difference of understanding of the text between us, and it is what ties back to the question of the OP, "is God ultimately responsible for evil?". Specifically for Job, his answer would be yes, it is God who is the giver and taker of life. Very true, that it is Satan here, and mankind in general, who are the actual authors of evil. Evil is the corporate creation of demonic angel and mankind. The origins of evil in the world of spirit source back to the Fall, and are the realm of the Devil and sinners who cooperate with him at each subsequent step along the spiritual journey.

That too, is not a source of disagreement between us, at any rate.

So, I do think it is worthwhile to consider Job's understanding "though He slay me I will trust in Him" with the New Testament passages of the lawgiver who is able to both judge and destroy, to "fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." To my ears at least, it does not seem that Job's understanding on that point is much different that the understanding that Jesus himself left us with. Even as I fully agree with your argument that Job experienced a correction of understanding of God's nature, I don't think his repentance was of that particular point therefore.
 
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YouAreAwesome

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The rejection of the karmic worldview describes Job's metanoia

Thank you for your post. Where does it say that Job believes the suffering came upon him because of evil he had done (if this is what he is repenting of)? And where in his repentance does it point to "karma" rather than "blaming God"?

"though He slay me I will trust in Him" probably does describe a more fundamental difference of understanding of the text between us, and it is what ties back to the question of the OP, "is God ultimately responsible for evil?". Specifically for Job, his answer would be yes, it is God who is the giver and taker of life

I believe Job repented of this view you are proposing because Job did not "charge God with wrong" initially, but clearly did when he wrote "though He slay me". You would have to believe that the "slaying" was God, however it is quite clear from the first two chapters that the slaying is done by the devil. When Jesus did miracles the Pharisees accused Him of being the devil. When the devil causes evil, we really don't want to blame his work on God.

New Testament passages of the lawgiver who is able to both judge and destroy, to "fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

I see a difference between destroying body and soul in hell, to that of destroying body and soul on the earth. On the earth God is the Saviour and Lover of mankind. Many commentators have struggled with this verse in Matthew 10:28 by the way, it is just as appropriate in the Greek and to the flow of the passage for Jesus to be referring to Satan. Jesus was encouraging His disciples to not be afraid of men, but rather, keep their souls pure. It's especially interesting how in the same passage Jesus then says, “So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows"(Matthew 10:31). It's strange that He would first say to fear God and then say straight after, do not fear. It makes more sense that Jesus was meaning for the disciples to keep their souls as the priority over physical harm and to not worry because God cares about them. Rather than being motivated by the fear that God would destroy them. Either way, I don't think it properly reflects the character of God to quote Him as the destroyer ON THE EARTH when the verse is clearly talking about hell.
 
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miknik5

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Thank you for replying with thoughtfulness and gentle criticism. My understanding of Job came through revelation rather than studious book study. I will attempt to defend it.

A Jewish Sage understands fear very well because the Mosaic covenant held God as responsible for both punishing and defending Israel. Under that covenant God appeared quite out of character, He was veiled by the covenant. On the hand it is the kindness of God that leads men to repentance. I fear /honour/respect God because He is all-powerful not because I'm scared He'll slay me.

Does the karmic repentance you talk of make sense to "though He slay me I will trust in Him"? Doesn't this show that Job believes God is slaying him despite his own righteousness?

I don't think my view encourages karma. I think the devil can attempt to attack people of all different spiritual places but it's especially easy when we sin and don't understand how to remove the access points. Further, our inner world is most important. Not riches or external blessing.

I believe God is all-powerful but doesn't always exercise His power in every instance. Not because He allows evil directly, but because He created our world with free agents who can choose for His involvement or not. I don't think this undermines His power, it is to His pleasure that our world is free and not under His complete and specific control.
HE is the ONE who holds all things back so that we are never completely destroyed

We can't even comprehend the magnitude of HIS GRACE

But when the "hedge" is removed the world will lack control with no one to hold it back
 
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SolomonVII

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Thank you for your post. Where does it say that Job believes the suffering came upon him because of evil he had done (if this is what he is repenting of)?
Nowhere does it say that. Virtually every line of Job descbibes the exact opposite of that as being what Job believed.
That is what makes Job's suffering so totally inexplicable to him, and to his friends all condemning him.
From the point of view of their shared worldview, punishment had to be a consequence of something.
His friends believed therefore that he had to have sinned. He clung to the believe that he had not-to do otherwise would have been to engage in a lie!- and therefore he had no explanation at all for why all this misery had befallen upon him.
The worldview of his social circle was that suffering comes upon people because of the evil that they had done. This is the viewpoint that Job came to repent of as a result of his suffering.

And where in his repentance does it point to "karma" rather than "blaming God"?
Karma is a well known Buddhist term. It is not used in the Bible.

"The definition of karma is the destiny that you earn through your actions and behavior.
When you behave kindly, this is an example of a situation where you earn good karma that will result in good things happening to you in the future.
Read more at http://www.yourdictionary.com/karma#l2Pw3BQbo8ozGqLF.99"

Since Karma is a well known term, I thought it might be a useful shorthand to describe the state of cosmic justice that ancient peoples believed in.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Since Karma is a well known term, I thought it might be a useful shorthand to describe the state of cosmic justice that ancient peoples believed in.
Ancient AND Modern pagans, yes.
Ecclesia immersed in Y'SHUA rely on YHWH for every detail in their/our lives, for every detail everywhere
to be orchestrated/ controlled/ confined/ expanded (HE sets all the boundaries) by YHWH as HE SAYS.
 
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SolomonVII

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Ancient AND Modern pagans, yes.
Ecclesia immersed in Y'SHUA rely on YHWH for every detail in their/our lives, for every detail everywhere
to be orchestrated/ controlled/ confined/ expanded (HE sets all the boundaries) by YHWH as HE SAYS.
The Book of Job is an ancient book, and its setting is in the pagan world in Northern Arabia or Edom, outside of Israel proper.
 
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miknik5

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The world is divided. There will always be those who will know GOD and will in all things before all men and in all situations represent HIM

As well as those who will falsely charge/blame/attribute to GOD what should not be
 
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he had no explanation at all for why all this misery had befallen upon him

Very good. I agree that he didn't know why. The point I am making is that nowhere does it say that Job agreed with his friends' point of view. No nowhere does it say Job had a karmic worldview. What we do know is that at the beginning he didn't charge God with the wrong. But during his trials he did start charging God with wrong which is why I quote "though HE slay me". Here Job is charging God with wrong. And there are two lessons for us to learn. One, God is not the One who brings suffering into our lives. Two, we are to trust God and believe in Him. And these are the conclusions Job came to. I can back these up from the book, but I am asking if you can back up your view from the book?

As well as those who will falsely charge/blame/attribute to GOD what should not be

Yes, exactly.
 
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pat34lee

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The world is divided. There will always be those who will know GOD and will in all things before all men and in all situations represent HIM

As well as those who will falsely charge/blame/attribute to GOD what should not be

The thing is, we know nothing, and cannot judge God evil or good,
because he is so far beyond our comprehension.
 
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The thing is, we know nothing, and cannot judge God evil or good,
because he is so far beyond our comprehension.
Interesting response. Does that mean if we blame things on God, that God is not responsible for, it's ok? We could believe suffering is from God when it is not such as with Job?

What I mean is, we CAN judge good and evil on the basis of love. But are you saying we CAN'T judge good and evil because we don't know good and evil because whatever God does is good and therefore all things He does are good and therefore EVERYTHING is good.

Maybe I'm reading into it to much :)

But if we can't judge evil from good we have big problems!!
 
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miknik5

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Very good. I agree that he didn't know why. The point I am making is that nowhere does it say that Job agreed with his friends' point of view. No nowhere does it say Job had a karmic worldview. What we do know is that at the beginning he didn't charge God with the wrong. But during his trials he did start charging God with wrong which is why I quote "though HE slay me". Here Job is charging God with wrong. And there are two lessons for us to learn. One, God is not the One who brings suffering into our lives. Two, we are to trust God and believe in Him. And these are the conclusions Job came to. I can back these up from the book, but I am asking if you can back up your view from the book?



Yes, exactly.
Well? You actually forgot the third lesson
 
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Interesting response. Does that mean if we blame things on God, that God is not responsible for, it's ok? We could believe suffering is from God when it is not such as with Job?

What I mean is, we CAN judge good and evil on the basis of love. But are you saying we CAN'T judge good and evil because we don't know good and evil because whatever God does is good and therefore all things He does are good and therefore EVERYTHING is good.

Maybe I'm reading into it to much :)

But if we can't judge evil from good we have big problems!!

With other humans, at least you have a similar
point of reference. We live, age and die. What
God does is always good, even if it looks evil
from our point of view.
 
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