Is God ultimately responsible for evil?

[YouAreAwesome]

Hi,

I have been a Christian for pretty much my whole life. I'm 35.

Recently I've been attempting to nut out whether the attributes of the God I believe in make sense to the actual world we live in. Here is the problem I'm attempting to solve in a way that I feel satisfied.

1. God has no equal, only lesser
2. God only creates lesser creations
3. Every creation is constrained by God in at least one way otherwise the creation would be equal to God
2. God created the devil
3. The devil is the root of all evil
4. God did not constrain the potential for evil 5.
God is ultimately responsible for evil

Point 4 is a new thought for me. Even though God put all sorts of other constraints on the devil, he still allowed the potential for evil.

Free will does not answer this problem because heaven will be filled with free creatures. If heaven is the ultimate destination then God could have created heaven first, with constraints on the potential for evil. I can still be free to choose if I want an apple or an orange. I can still choose to marry my wife rather than another girl. I can still choose to walk or run. I am still free in heaven but in heaven there will be no potential for evil.

But instead God decided to create the devil with the potential for evil.

I don't understand why God would want to involve evil and suffering to any existence ever.

Thanks

 

[~Anastasia~]

No, God is not "responsible" for evil in that He created it.

One could argue that if God had never created anything, and just remained He Himself, there would be no evil of course. But this is the only way in which He is responsible.

He did allow for free will. Choosing contrary to good (which is God) is the cause of evil.

There will be no "free will" in the restored creation as far as choosing evil.


(God did not create death either - God is the source of life, and death resulted from the choice to move away from that source. We don't blame the sun that shines for darkness, when darkness happens because we close ourselves in a light-proof box.)

 

[Sketcher]

This isn't a declaration, but something worth exploring as your question is explored:

God is holy.
There is none like him.
Can any created being then, not have the potential for evil?

If this has been answered in keeping with free will by any of the Reformers or Church Fathers, I would appreciate a source.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

No, God is not "responsible" for evil in that He created it.

One could argue that if God had never created anything, and just remained He Himself, there would be no evil of course. But this is the only way in which He is responsible.

He did allow for free will. Choosing contrary to good (which is God) is the cause of evil.

There will be no "free will" in the restored creation as far as choosing evil.

Hi thanks for your quick reply.

I'll attempt to summarise your response:

Free will is of higher priority to God than a world without evil.

Is this a correct statement? Is this the same as saying that, from God's perspective, life on earth is better than life in heaven?

 

[NightHawkeye]

As your parents may have taught you, actions have consequences. God created the natural laws. Humans create the evil.

See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
...
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.​

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hi thanks for your quick reply.

I'll attempt to summarise your response:

Free will is of higher priority to God than a world without evil.

Is this a correct statement? Is this the same as saying that, from God's perspective, life on earth is better than life in heaven?

I think trying to apply such logic can lead one to error.

I do not know what God's higher priority would be. God is love. I think we can safely say then that it was more LOVING to allow us the opportunity to choose Him than it would have been to make us robots. Beyond that is speculation.

And I think it's easy enough to say that in no way would God consider it better for us to live in the present age, suffering the effects of sin that we bring on ourselves, than He considers how we will live in the age to come, when He has restored all things and healed us from the effects of sin. That's why He purposes to do so.

 

[~Anastasia~]

By the way, I just noticed that you're also brand new to CF. Welcome to the forums! I pray that you are blessed by being here.

If you need any help finding your way around, or have questions, let us (an ambassador) or staff know, and we will be happy to help. And again, welcome!

God be with you!

Hi,

I have been a Christian for pretty much my whole life. I'm 35.

Recently I've been attempting to nut out whether the attributes of the God I believe in make sense to the actual world we live in. Here is the problem I'm attempting to solve in a way that I feel satisfied.

1. God has no equal, only lesser
2. God only creates lesser creations
3. Every creation is constrained by God in at least one way otherwise the creation would be equal to God
2. God created the devil
3. The devil is the root of all evil
4. God did not constrain the potential for evil 5.
God is ultimately responsible for evil

Point 4 is a new thought for me. Even though God put all sorts of other constraints on the devil, he still allowed the potential for evil.

Free will does not answer this problem because heaven will be filled with free creatures. If heaven is the ultimate destination then God could have created heaven first, with constraints on the potential for evil. I can still be free to choose if I want an apple or an orange. I can still choose to marry my wife rather than another girl. I can still choose to walk or run. I am still free in heaven but in heaven there will be no potential for evil.

But instead God decided to create the devil with the potential for evil.

I don't understand why God would want to involve evil and suffering to any existence ever.

Thanks

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I don't understand why God would want to involve evil and suffering to any existence ever.

That's okay.
Self-sacrificial Perfect Love is the answer.

 

[Tinyarch]

Arthur Pink's, "The Attributes of God" is worth reading.
http://gracegems.org/Pink/attributes_of_god.htm

 

[Greg J.]

Free will is of higher priority to God than a world without evil.

Is this a correct statement? Is this the same as saying that, from God's perspective, life on earth is better than life in heaven?

God created us with free will and without evil. God will not override a person's free will. He's going to let many people condemn themselves to eternal punishment rather than override their free will, because free will is one of the fundamental things that makes us like God. He's not going to undo making us like gods, for that was an overwhelmingly incredible and amazing gift; there's nothing negative about it at all.

If that is what you mean by free will being of higher priority than a world without evil, then that is absolutely true.

Suggesting that because God did not constrain the potential for evil, therefore he is responsible for it is definitely wrong. It's the sort of thing Adam did when he blamed Eve for his own sin. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. Scripture thoroughly backs that up.

Your second question seems to imply that we will have less free will in heaven than on earth, but it is the other way around. We will have more free will in heaven than on earth.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

This isn't a declaration, but something worth exploring as your question is explored:

God is holy.
There is none like him.
Can any created being then, not have the potential for evil?

If this has been answered in keeping with free will by any of the Reformers or Church Fathers, I would appreciate a source.

Hi thanks for the reply.

I'm not sure "none like him" is only talking about "like him" in a good/evil sense. ie "God is perfect and everyone else is evil".

The thing I am concerned about is why God didn't created heaven, with us in it, first. If it is in fact the optimal human existence.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

As your parents may have taught you, actions have consequences. God created the natural laws. Humans create the evil.

See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;​

Hi NightHawk, thanks for replying.

My parents instructions are good because they are given from within the confines of this world, it's natural laws etc. In this world actions can have painful consequences. But not in heaven, there will be no pain in heaven. The question I have is, why create a world with painful natural consequences when it is possible to create a world WITHOUT painful natural consequences? e.g. Heaven.

 

[Tinyarch]

I don't think the Bible tells us. What we are told is that God's ways are higher than ours. Job made the mistake of accusing God and God simply asked Job if Job could comprehend God's ways.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The thing I am concerned about is why God didn't created heaven, with us in it, first. If it is in fact the optimal human existence.

Did you ever watch spoilt brats ? That's why.

 

[Tinyarch]

Hi thanks for the reply.

I'm not sure "none like him" is only talking about "like him" in a good/evil sense. ie "God is perfect and everyone else is evil".

The thing I am concerned about is why God didn't created heaven, with us in it, first. If it is in fact the optimal human existence.

Considering heaven as the optimal human existence seems rather self-centered.

It seems that God creates for His pleasure. Heaven isn't for our pleasure, heaven is for God's glory. We receive the privilege of being with God and worshipping Him.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Thanks for your post Greg.

Do you believe free-will is defined as giving a creature "the potential to do evil"? If this is true, then why is this a positive thing to give a creature? Also, how does this make us like God? Does God have this same "Free will"?


You wrote "Suggesting that because God did not constrain the potential for evil, therefore he is responsible for it is definitely wrong." Why is it wrong? Aren't we responsible for all that we do and create?

And last, can you explain how we have more free will in heaven than earth? Is it that we are free to live perfectly?

 

[YouAreAwesome]

I don't think the Bible tells us. What we are told is that God's ways are higher than ours. Job made the mistake of accusing God and God simply asked Job if Job could comprehend God's ways.

Yeah, you might be right. I may end up in the same place. When I read this verse it empowered me to look into things a bit more: "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, to search out a matter is the glory of kings." (Prov 25:2).

 

[YouAreAwesome]

By the way, I just noticed that you're also brand new to CF. Welcome to the forums! I pray that you are blessed by being here.

If you need any help finding your way around, or have questions, let us (an ambassador) or staff know, and we will be happy to help. And again, welcome!

God be with you!

Thanks Anastasia. I'm already blessed being here. I'm amazed how quickly people are responding and helping me think through some tough questions. Bless you also.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Did you ever watch spoilt brats ? That's why.

Hi Jeff,

I will reply to your posts in a way that highlights why they do not satisfy my questions.

Me: Why did God create the potential for evil?
You: So God could express His self-sacrificial love.

Analogy
Me: Why did you bash your wife so bad that now she's a quadraplegic?
Reply: So I could show my sacrifical love and look after her selflessly for the rest of my life.

Me: Why didn't God create heaven first?
You: Because humans would be spoiled brats.

Analogy
Me: Why don't you let your kids live in your house?
Reply: Because they would be spoiled. Instead I have them live on the streets until they are mature enough to be thankful for the house we live in.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

.....

Okay. You know the answers and analogies of a selfish and cruel viewpoint. Most people know and have and hold that view also.

They are in total opposition
and different from
what is good.
Namely, the answers and analogies from YHWH'S viewpoint.

How did the BEREANS and
others find, test, and verify YHWH'S viewpoint?

(in HIS WORD).