Is God a liar?

BobRyan

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In order for there to be light on the first day, there had to be stars. Yet in the Genesis 1 creation account, stars were not created until the fourth day.

That is not true either.

On day 4 in Genesis "TWO lights" are created. not a zillion-and-two.

The narrative points out that God is also the creator of the stars - but is very clear that on day 4 only two lights are created.

14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. 17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19 There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.


Bible details matter.

That is not correct.

A matter of opinion.


On day four, two great lights (sun and moon) PLUS the stars are created. It's quite explicit.

indeed the stars also created -- but not in day 4. "Let there be lights... God made TWO great lights..."
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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14 Then God said, “Let there be light-bearers (sun, moon, stars) in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be useful for signs (tokens) [of God’s provident care], and for marking seasons, days, and years; 15 and let them be useful as lights in the expanse of the heavens to provide light on the earth”; and it was so, [just as He commanded]. 16 God made the two great lights—the greater light (the sun) to rule the day, and the lesser light (the moon) to rule the night; He made the [galaxies of] stars also [that is, all the amazing wonders in the heavens]. 17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to provide light upon the earth, 18 to rule over the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good and He affirmed and sustained it. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

Is that wrong ?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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He made the stars also. 17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19 There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

I didn't double check ---- but it sure reads like God made the stars on the fourth day.... was it instead the 3rd or the 5th day ??
 
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toLiJC

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All the scientific evidence points to an ancient earth. Furthermore, the fossil records support the slow change of species over time, such as dinosaurs to birds. *IF* these things are not true, it would follow that God deliberately created a world with false scientific data. Right? So then this begs the questions...

Did God lie?
And if God lied, why?

What do you believe?

the true God is not a liar, but the wicked one is - satan is the one that working through its angels has performed/shown all those lying signs and wonders in the cosmos and in the ground of the earth, and these are cosmic materializations and projections such as supernovas, black holes, nebulae, certain movement of cosmic bodies/objects, aging of matter, materializations of fossils and remains of prehistoric manlike beings/anthropoids, animals and plants, materialization of prehistoric earth layers in the ground, etc.

and the system of spiritual iniquity and human(666) religion is the kingdom of the wicked "god" which brings all that delusion and offense to the world, here is some explanation with pictures:

the "tree" that is beyond the Eden (garden) and that has been forbidden by God, also called (the) "fig tree"(art image):
189fc681748972e007e700def9cd5c13.jpg



a human can "eat" of it by exercising/practicing occultism, esotericism, idolatry and, in general, unrighteous faith/spirituality/religion, but initially this happened in the form of the creed that for the last millennia has been known as yoga of krishna and patanjali

yoga as a "tree" of the knowledge of good and evil and the yogi(n) as cognizing/knowing and joining/uniting in it(art image):
00d95b05d3d607b22bc90f9d7b1f819b.jpg



the "third eye"(a.k.a. the sixth chakra) on the forehead of a female yogi(n) in the process of yoga(art image):
1187032_406389959462545_1080857987_n.jpg



this is a process that converts/turns the human(the practitioner) into a spiritual servant/worker of satan, while the culmination is their transformation into (complete) angels of satan


an yogi(n) in process of cosmic transcendental meditation and the so-called "chakras"(seven main satanic spirits)(art image):
chakra1.jpg



an yogi(n) in process of intensive and deep yoga meditation, there is a powerful prana(satanic force) unleashing in him(art image):
72516b588a84f5d0714e2eab8998314a.jpg



the peak culmination of yoga is when after an intensive, deep and long-standing meditation there occurs physical death for the yogi(n) and they resurrect in the "darkness" like the Lord, Jesus Christ, Who has (been) resurrected in the "Light", so the yogi(n) turns into a complete angel of satan mastering/having powers for great signs and wonders even of cosmic scale with/through which a maximum number of people to be misled/deceived/lied, including various types of wisdom, omnipresence, telepathy, telekinesis, teleportation, materialization, dematerialization, etc.


a complete angel of satan showing great signs and wonders of cosmic scale (in this case cosmic nebulas, supernova or other cosmic phenomena)(art image):
103a8ff24af63bf8e89b8f9b65a5f681.jpg



the kingdom of satan (whose structure consists of many occult realms) can exist for no more than 5-6 millennia as from the day of the original sin(fall), then there will be a full destruction of it and all that inhabit it

Blessings
 
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Revealing Times

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And I keep telling you, and will say it every time you repeat yourself, that the stars weren't created until day four. Made means created. " He also made the stars." Genesis 1:16

You act like God only created stars ONE TIME, but He has been creating stars ever since He gave the order for the universe to exist. The universe is expanding. I think we have people who live in boxes. What is Light ? Is it not Stars ? God said let there be light in the third verse......Please get back and explain where light comes from, if it comes from Stars, then lights/Stars were created in the first day.

You have your on agenda/beliefs and you are set in this agenda, just like young earthers are set in their agenda. With a universe so vast, it pays to keep an open mind.
 
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BobRyan

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God's Seven Days...Scripturally

good idea to present the case "scripturally"

. And we see that "SIX DAYS you shall labor...for IN SIX days the LORD created the heavens and the earth - and rested the 7th day"

This is irrefutable - and the failed attempts to marry the Bible to evolutionism do not survive this "Bible detail"

Gen 2 -
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Ex 20 - legal code (not poetry - not symbolism)
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

this is a bible detail that cannot be ignored when admitting that the Bible describes a real - literal "six days you shall labor...for in six days the Lord made" 7 day week for creation that maps exactly to the week of Exodus 20.

Irrefutable.
 
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BobRyan

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It seems perfectly clear to me. This is the fourth day, not the first.

Until you read the actual Bible. And we see that "SIX DAYS you shall labor...for IN SIX days the LORD created the heavens and the earth - and rested the 7th day"

This is irrefutable - and the failed attempts to marry the Bible to evolutionism do not survive this "Bible detail"

Gen 2 -
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Ex 20 - legal code (not poetry - not symbolism)
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

this is a bible detail that cannot be ignored when admitting that the Bible describes a real - literal "six days you shall labor...for in six days the Lord made" 7 day week for creation that maps exactly to the week of Exodus 20.

Irrefutable.


Please stay on topic. I think deliberately changing topics breaks the rules.

How nice then - that this is not breaking the topic - it is simply defeating the attempt to marry the Bible to evolutionism when it comes to creation week - God Himself speaks to the solution - removing all "excuses" about poetry and symbolism -- placing the detailed summary of Genesis 2:1-3 in legal code - in Exodus 20.

Bible details matter --- on this subject.
 
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BobRyan

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You act like God only created stars ONE TIME, but He has been creating stars ever since He gave the order for the universe to exist.

Genesis 1 does not say when the stars where created - it only says when the "two great lights" were created - day four.

It also points to God as the one who "made the stars also" -- but does not tell us when. He notes this detail on day four when describing the actual creative work of day four - which was making the "two great lights".
 
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BobRyan

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I didn't double check ---- but it sure reads like God made the stars on the fourth day.... was it instead the 3rd or the 5th day ??

On the 4th day "two great lights".

But Moses also mentions that God is the creator of the stars - he does not say when all the other stars were made - and does not claim that the "two great lights" are the only lights in the sky.

So we know God made all the stars from the text - but we don't know when.
 
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BobRyan

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14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. 17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19 There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

14 Then God said, “Let there be light-bearers (sun, moon, stars) in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be useful for signs (tokens) [of God’s provident care], and for marking seasons, days, and years; 15 and let them be useful as lights in the expanse of the heavens to provide light on the earth”; and it was so, [just as He commanded]. 16 God made the two great lights—the greater light (the sun) to rule the day, and the lesser light (the moon) to rule the night; He made the [galaxies of] stars also [that is, all the amazing wonders in the heavens]. 17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to provide light upon the earth, 18 to rule over the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good and He affirmed and sustained it. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

Is that wrong ?

The paraphrase "Then God said, “Let there be light-bearers (sun, moon, stars) in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night," inserts details "sun, moon, starts" as if the stars separate day from night.

I agree of course that "He made the galaxies of stars" is a statement in the paraphrase that is true - but these are not the two lights that are made on day four... and on day four the number of lights made are stated in the text as "two".
 
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Revealing Times

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The paraphrase "Then God said, “Let there be light-bearers (sun, moon, stars) in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night," inserts details "sun, moon, starts" as if the stars separate day from night.

I agree of course that "He made the galaxies of stars" is a statement in the paraphrase that is true - but these are not the two lights that are made on day four... and on day four the number of lights made are stated in the text as "two".
More than likely the two great lights, even though one s only reflective, is the sun and the moon. The moon provides far more light at night than any sun. I take knew thoughts and welcome them.

Genesis 1 does not say when the stars where created - it only says when the "two great lights" were created - day four.

It also points to God as the one who "made the stars also" -- but does not tell us when. He notes this detail on day four when describing the actual creative work of day four - which was making the "two great lights".

This is true, but the sun is a star, and the moon is reflecting off of the star,........interesting, I never looked this up until know. The Sun and the Earth are both 4.5 Billion years old.

4.5 billion years (Answer to how old the sun is)

The Sun is abut 4.5 billion years old now. It is about 300 degrees hotter and about 6% greater in radius than when it was first born. It will continue to increase,in temperature, luminosity and radius at about the same rate for about another 5 billion years.

So since the earth was spoken about on the second day, the sun had to have been created on the second day also. Both are 4.5 Billion years old. Look I agree, God could do anything He desired, but remember, there is no time in Gods Realm, as soon as He created the universe 14.7 Billion years ago, He was already in our time and in the future, for He is in all time, past, future and present at he same time. So God did not have to wait, so why would he change the Laws of Nature as He created them ? He just commanded it and it happened in His presence. The time that existed in our universe, does not affect God. So the oil that came from Dinos just came from Dinos. God wouldn't have to just say BE THERE, he could just create a dino and it would happen, in a flash to God, because he is not beholden to time.

I still say the fourth day is about the seasons, the earth finally started tilting on its axis in the perfect manner and such. Ut even speaks about the seasons. I think God gave us a true play by play to what happened, we humans with a limited mind just can't always see things correctly. With the WMAP/NASA project, we can see the beginnings of the universe, and it matches what God said.

God just used the word "yom" which can be a period of time, and they wrote Day, because there was no way if they wrote a billion years anyone would in anyway understand that. I think God just says in the first period of time, I created the Dark ages and the Stars....Etc. Etc.

We are on the same team brother and you stick up for God at every turn, God Bless you.
 
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BobRyan

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The 4.5 billion year number was dug up - by looking at a meteor -- doing radiometric dating on it then "assuming" the earth was the same age. Because it was 'assumed' that a much of smaller meteors all got together slamming into each other to form the earth.

Not long ago they were walking on some of the oldest rock ever found on the actual earth - about 4.3 billion years old according to the radiometric -- and noticed that the rock had formed 'under water' - so then water - already here - already an ocean here when the basement rock 'was forming' - that fits "nothing" in their story.

Then then noticed elements in the rock that can only form under high pressure and heat - 12 miles deep in the earth's crust. So then continental earth's crust 12 miles deep at the time that basement rocks were forming. Earth having continents and oceans - at the start. That fits "nothing" in their stories.

Notice that the more accurate texts point out that "He made" two lights on day four - but do not say "he made the stars" the term "He made" is inserted just as they indicate -- when it comes to the stars. So the "He made two lights" statement is in the text - but the thing being said about the stars is not that he made them on day four.

When looking at what the text says God “made” – He made “two” lights – it does not say “He made the starts” on day four – just that the stars also rule the night and by implication in the same – God made them but not on day 4 – not as part of the TWO lights that the text says is the number of lights made.

Where the texts have "he made the stars" they point out that "he made" is inserted.

King James Bible
And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
God made the two great lights--the greater light to have dominion over the day and the lesser light to have dominion over the night--as well as the stars.

International Standard Version
God fashioned two great lights—the larger light to shine during the day and the smaller light to shine during the night—as well as stars.

Young's Literal Translation
And God maketh the two great luminaries, the great luminary for the rule of the day, and the small luminary -- and the stars -- for the rule of the night;
 
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Open Heart

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"also made" does not include the stars in the "TWO" Lights made on day 4.,
The stars are not the two lights. But he did "also make" aka create the stars on day four. It's right there in the verse.
 
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BobRyan

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All the scientific evidence points to an ancient earth. Furthermore, the fossil records support the slow change of species over time, such as dinosaurs to birds. *IF* these things are not true, it would follow that God deliberately created a world with false scientific data. Right? So then this begs the questions...

Did God lie?
And if God lied, why?

What do you believe?

The author's own answer to her own question seems to be ...

. Let's face it. Genesis 1 is simply not compatible with what we know from science.

I prefer the Bible to atheism and the junk-science religion of evolutionism.

More facts - less evolutionism please.

Who said anything about atheism? We aren't discussing atheism.

Darwin admits that blind faith evolutionism demands atheism not Christianity.

I think he has a point. But I am one of those people that prefer the Bible.

you on the other hand agree with the first step in Darwins downfall with your "Bible is wrong" theology.

I assume we were "not supposed to notice"

======= a more detailed discussion on how "bible is wrong" theology leads to atheism....

Darwin admits that faith in evolutionism destroyed Christianity for him - as do the former Christians in this video ...


-- Darwinism leads to atheism according to a number of prominent scientists.

...

Darwinism's ability to destroy christian faith in those that accept it (given a long enough period of time) - is something that Christians 'should not notice' say 'some' in the Christian community. Others argue it should not be discussed so it can continue its work without detection.


"Among leading scientists in the field of evolution, 87% deny existence of God, 88% disbelieve in life after death, and 90% reject idea that evolution is directed Toward an “ultimate purpose.” 12 "
from http://www.kmlhs.org/UserFiles/Serv...e/FACULTY_FILES/Bartelt/losingfaith020214.pdf



Darwin's Christianity - destroyed by belief in evolution
===================================

Whilst on board the Beagle I was quite orthodox, and remember being heartily laughed at by several of the officers (though themselves orthodox) for quoting the Bible as an unanswerable authority on some point of morality. I suppose it was the novelty of the argument that amused thee.

But I had gradually come by this time, i.e. 1836 to 1839, to see that the Old Testament was no more to be trusted than the sacred books of the Hindus….

By further reflecting… that the more we know of the fixed laws of nature the more incredible do miracle become, - that the men of the time were ignorant and credulous to a degree almost incomprehensible to us,- that the Gospels cannot be proved to have been written simultaneously with the events,- that they differ in many important details…

I gradually came to disbelieve in Christianity as a divine revelation…. But I was very unwilling to give up my belief; I feel sure of this, for I can well remember often and often inventing day-dreams of old letters between distinguished Romans… which confirmed in the most striking manner all that was written in the Gospels. But I found it more and more difficult, with free scope given to my imagination, to invent evidence which would suffice to convince me. Thus disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and have never doubted even for a single second that my conclusion was correct.

I can, indeed, hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true;

Darwin (1887) III p. 308 omits the last sentence which is included in the later version of the work [Barlow (1958)].

=====================

Atheists often don't mind "admitting" to what the Bible says - they simply reject what it says. As in rejecting the virgin birth, the bodily ascension of Christ, the miracles of the bible and in this example they freely admit to what the Bible says - while rejecting it as 'truth'.

Professor James Barr, Regius Professor of Hebrew at the University of Oxford, has written:

‘Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1–11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that: (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience (b) the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story (c) Noah’s flood was understood to be world-wide and extinguish all human and animal life except for those in the ark. Or, to put it negatively, the apologetic arguments which suppose the "days" of creation to be long eras of time, the figures of years not to be chronological, and the flood to be a merely local Mesopotamian flood, are not taken seriously by any such professors, as far as I know.’

=======================

That is the opinion of professors not at all inclined to accept the 7 day creation week that we find in Gen 1:2-2:3 yet they can still 'read' and point to the author's intent - whether they agree with the author or not.

Don't miss that ---

Darwin -
Whilst on board the Beagle I was quite orthodox, and remember being heartily laughed at by several of the officers (though themselves orthodox) for quoting the Bible as an unanswerable authority on some point of morality. I suppose it was the novelty of the argument that amused thee.

But I had gradually come by this time, i.e. 1836 to 1839, to see that the Old Testament was no more to be trusted than the sacred books of the Hindus….

By further reflecting… that the more we know of the fixed laws of nature the more incredible do miracle become, - that the men of the time were ignorant and credulous to a degree almost incomprehensible to us,- that the Gospels cannot be proved to have been written simultaneously with the events,- that they differ in many important details…

I gradually came to disbelieve in Christianity as a divine revelation…. But I was very unwilling to give up my belief; I feel sure of this, for I can well remember often and often inventing day-dreams of old letters between distinguished Romans… which confirmed in the most striking manner all that was written in the Gospels. But I found it more and more difficult, with free scope given to my imagination, to invent evidence which would suffice to convince me. Thus disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and have never doubted even for a single second that my conclusion was correct.


compared to OH here -
. Let's face it. Genesis 1 is simply not compatible with what we know from science.

And as OH points out - this is her "Belief' as an Evangelical - becoming Catholic came later.
 
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Open Heart

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Not long ago they were walking on some of the oldest rock ever found on the actual earth - about 4.3 billion years old according to the radiometric -- and noticed that the rock had formed 'under water' - so then water - already here - already an ocean here when the basement rock 'was forming' - that fits "nothing" in their story.
What makes you think that water was here when the rock was formed? Just because it is under water now doesn't mean it has always been. News flash -- tectonic plates move sideways, get pushed up, get sucked down, all sorts of stuff. And water has not always been on the planet.
 
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Open Heart

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You act like God only created stars ONE TIME, but He has been creating stars ever since He gave the order for the universe to exist.
It depends on whether you take Genesis 1 literally or not. If you take Genesis 1 literally, then God created the stars one time. Genesis 1 doesn't jive with science. Of COURSE stars are still being created.
 
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Open Heart

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Darwin admits that blind faith evolutionism demands atheism not Christianity.

I think he has a point. But I am one of those people that prefer the Bible.

you on the other hand agree with the first step in Darwins downfall with your "Bible is wrong" theology.

I assume we were "not supposed to notice"
1. The overwhelming majority of God-believing evolutionists prove Darwin wrong on that account.

2. The "Bible is wrong" is only true if you take Genesis LITERALLY, which I don't. I know that Genesis 1 is of the genre of myth, which means it is not historical, but teaches eternal truths. So I don't look to Genesis 1 for scientific facts, but for those eternal truths.
 
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SkyWriting

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hmm --- you mean it only occurs when it can never be observed as fact?? amazing!

You are amazed by things I didn't say. Amazing. I've watched natural selection
"choose" the slowest ducklings in a pond and leave only the "correct"
size family....going from 12 to 2 ducklings in one afternoon.

Species do change and there do not seem to be any genetic barriers
that keep each "kind" in it's narrow channel. You might say that
each species does not change to another, but since "species" is a
man made term anyway, it's not a very significant claim.

"Species" is an animal that does not mate with other "species"
so by definition, they do not cross breed.

Yet:
MALE CAMEL + FEMALE LLAMA = CAMA
MALE LEOPARD + FEMALE LION = LEOPON
ZEBRA + DONKEY = ZONKEY
GOAT + SHEEP = GEEP
MALE JAGUAR + FEMALE LION = JAGLION
ZEBRA + PONY = ZONY
ZEBRA + HORSE = ZORSE
 
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