Is celebrating xmas a sin??

[StanJ]

https://www.gci.org/law/newcovq

https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2009/02/15/are-christians-under-the-new-covenant-or-not/

 

[gadar perets]

The old covenant was made with Israel first.

I agree, and the Gentiles were permitted to partake second. The New Covenant was made with Jews first as well (Matthew 26:28). Some Jews accepted it, but most didn't. Therefore, the Gentiles were permitted to partake second (Acts 13:46).

You are having the gentiles
steal the new covenant, which is not in effect with Israel. That is replacement
theology (church replaces Israel in God's heart and takes their covenants.)

It was put in effect through Yeshua's shed blood. Most Jews in Yeshua's day when it was first dedicated rejected it and all that it entails. Paul was one of the Jews that embraced it. Any Jew since the time of Yeshua could embrace it. Many have in the MJ movement. So there is no replacement, no stealing of the New Covenant. Any Jew living under the OC at this time can cast out the OC and partake of the NC through receiving Yeshua. Many will do just that when their blindness is lifted. Are you a Jew living under the OC? If so, you don't have a better sacrifice than the OC, or a better mediator, or high priest, or priestly order, or tabernacle, etc. All you have are the old ways. How sad.

To the Jew first, then the gentile. ALWAYS. Not just available to.
If Judah and Israel are not signed up, nobody is.

If a Jew in Moses day decided it was too difficult to live under the OC and chose to not say, "All that YHWH has said will we do, and be obedient" (Exodus 24:7), does his decision affect those that did agree to the OC? No. Neither does any Jew's rejection of the NC affect those who did agree to it. We agree by receiving Yeshua as Master, Savior, High Priest and Mediator of the NC we are joining.

Care to try answering the unanswerable if the new covenant is
in effect? If God wrote his laws on your inward parts, what are
the laws (word for word), and why do you continue to sin? No
fair looking online or reading anything for answers.

"Word for word"??? YHWH did not say He would write His Torah on our hearts all at once. I believe it happens over time. Nor did He say we would never sin again, but that He would forgive iniquity and remember our sins no more. That was fulfilled through Yeshua (Hebrews 10:1-18).

You still haven't addressed the rest of my post #54. What are we supposed to do with Hebrews and Paul? Are they wrong? Are you one of those anti-Paulists who rejects Paul's writings? If not, then please explain to us how we are to understand Galatians 4 and 2 Corinthians 3.

 

[StanJ]

@pat34lee
Read Romans 11...written by a Jew...it can't get any plainer than that.

 

[pat34lee]

https://www.gci.org/law/newcovq

https://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2009/02/15/are-christians-under-the-new-covenant-or-not/

First author contradicts himself.

"Analogies, such as the analogy of a covenant as a marriage agreement, cannot negate the clear meaning of Hebrews 8:6. Some of the new covenant promises have not yet been fulfilled, but we have been given a down payment as a guarantee that all the promises will be fulfilled. In contract language, the agreement has been signed, though all the goods have not yet been delivered."

"We should live under the terms of the new covenant. The reason we should live this way is that the new covenant has been made."

There is no such thing as half a covenant. His first paragraph
is correct, not the conclusion he draws.

The second is worse.

The last supper and 'this is my blood'. Everyone who uses it
to prove the new covenant forget a few words.
"this do in remembrance of me"
It is a memorial for remembering the covenant TO COME.
We still do it for the same reason. The same as the feasts
of Yahweh the Father.

I already explained Hebrews 8:13. Future.

Hebrews 10:16-18
16 “This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.” - FUTURE
17 Then he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.” - FUTURE
18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. -FUTURE

The author claims that sacrifices are no longer wanted because the
temple was destroyed. News flash for him. It was destroyed once and
rebuilt twice before that. All prophecy says that it will be rebuilt and
sacrifices renewed, and Jesus will preside over them.

Are we saved already? Once saved always saved is not scriptural.
God will not drop us, but we are able to turn away from him. I know
many Christians fear 'works' but even saved, we are judged by our
works before men. Remember what Jesus said about "if you have
done this to the least of them, you did it to me."
https://www.gty.org/resources/bible-qna/BQ052112/what-does-it-mean-to-work-out-your-salvation

Sin was far from the only reason we sacrificed at the temple.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Old-Testament-sacrifices.html

 

[pat34lee]

I agree, and the Gentiles were permitted to partake second. The New Covenant was made with Jews first as well (Matthew 26:28). Some Jews accepted it, but most didn't. Therefore, the Gentiles were permitted to partake second (Acts 13:46).

You still haven't addressed the rest of my post #54. What are we supposed to do with Hebrews and Paul? Are they wrong? Are you one of those anti-Paulists who rejects Paul's writings? If not, then please explain to us how we are to understand Galatians 4 and 2 Corinthians 3.

Most of your answers are on the link you repudiated in 54.

Another good article:
http://www.hebroots.org/hebrootsarchive/0312/0312e.html

Back to the computer analogy. A PC can be obsolete whether or not
there is a new model out. They get old and eventually will stop running.

God's laws are always necessary and always the same, whether written
on stone or on our hearts. The covenant may become obsolete, but not
his word. Torah

 

[pat34lee]

@pat34lee
Read Romans 11...written by a Jew...it can't get any plainer than that.

Before I try to go through a whole chapter,
what exactly does Romans 11 prove to you?

 

[StanJ]

First author contradicts himself.
"Analogies, such as the analogy of a covenant as a marriage agreement, cannot negate the clear meaning of Hebrews 8:6. Some of the new covenant promises have not yet been fulfilled, but we have been given a down payment as a guarantee that all the promises will be fulfilled. In contract language, the agreement has been signed, though all the goods have not yet been delivered."
"We should live under the terms of the new covenant. The reason we should live this way is that the new covenant has been made."
There is no such thing as half a covenant. His first paragraph
is correct, not the conclusion he draws.

Not at all. The analogy of marriage does not negate the clear meaning of Hebrews 8:6. Some of the promises under the New Covenant have not been fulfilled it just as many of the promises under the old Covenant we're not fulfilled right away. In Jesus many of the promises of the Old Covenant where fulfilled. We know this now because we're on the other side of that Covenant, but we are not on the other side of the New Covenant yet. The promise of eternal life has not been realized yet for anyone but we still believe it just as Abraham believed in the old Covenant promises and it was credited to him as righteousness. For some reason you think there's just one promise in the New Covenant and that is obviously not true. There are many promises in the New Covenant and many things to come. Paul shows this by quoting Isaiah 64:4, in 1 Corinthians 2:9, and then stating in v10 that God has indeed revealed these things to us by his Spirit. Have you received the Holy Spirit as Paul asked in Acts 19:2?

The second is worse.
The last supper and 'this is my blood'. Everyone who uses it
to prove the new covenant forget a few words.
"this do in remembrance of me"
It is a memorial for remembering the covenant TO COME.
We still do it for the same reason. The same as the feasts
of Yahweh the Father.

No the words in Luke 22:20 are in the present tense and you're adding the words TO COME. You're contradicting yourself here because you celebrate feasts for remembering things that have already happened, which is exactly what they do. Communion was meant to remember Christ bringing the New Covenant into effect, just as Passover was meant to commemorate the passing over of the Angel of Death, because of the Lambs blood.

I already explained Hebrews 8:13. Future.

You asserted, you didn't explain. Again the language of Hebrews 8:13 is in the present tense, "He MADE the first one obsolete, and what IS obsolete, will SOON disappear", which it did in 70AD, when the temple was destroyed, and the Levites had no place to practice the law.

Hebrews 10:16-18
16 “This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.” - FUTURE
17 Then he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.” - FUTURE
18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. -FUTURE

Because Jeremiah was in the future, what don't you understand about that? Jesus fulfilled that promise of Jeremiah, which enabled God to write his laws on our hearts when we accepted Jesus as our savior. It's started then and has continued since that time. There is no time frame on the New Covenant except as God has decreed it, just as there was no time frame on the old Covenant until Jesus appeared.

The author claims that sacrifices are no longer wanted because the
temple was destroyed. News flash for him. It was destroyed once and
rebuilt twice before that. All prophecy says that it will be rebuilt and
sacrifices renewed, and Jesus will preside over them.

God did not require any further sacrifices end of the New Covenant because the perfect sacrifice was made in Jesus. Hebrews 10:4
I would say read Hebrews 10 but I don't think you want to learn.

Are we saved already? Once saved always saved is not scriptural.
God will not drop us, but we are able to turn away from him. I know
many Christians fear 'works' but even saved, we are judged by our
works before men. Remember what Jesus said about "if you have
done this to the least of them, you did it to me."

This is a different issue altogether, and I personally don't accept OSAS and agree that the Bible doesn't teach it.
Sadly now you just appear to be wandering.

Sin was far from the only reason we sacrificed at the temple.

That is true but you didn't sacrifice anything and the issue here is not the sacrifices that we're done under the old Covenant but the celebrations we participate in under the New Covenant. Are you actually Jewish?

 

[gadar perets]

Most of your answers are on the link you repudiated in 54.

Another good article:
http://www.hebroots.org/hebrootsarchive/0312/0312e.html

Thanks for the link which goes against your belief. Eddie Chumney believes just like Stan and I, that the New Covenant is in effect now. He writes;

The New Covenant Holy Spirit filled believer in Messiah will DELIGHT in the TORAH of YHVH.
​

Nothing in that link repudiates my post #54. It agrees with me.

 

[gadar perets]

pat4lee, neither the article at http://www.lightofmashiach.org/newcovenant.html, nor the article at http://www.hebroots.org/hebrootsarchive/0312/0312e.html say anything about Galatians 4 and 2 Cor 3. Please explain your view of those passages.

 

[pat34lee]

I would say read Hebrews 10 but I don't think you want to learn.
Sadly now you just appear to be wandering.

I tried to reason with you. Now you're down to flaming and calling my
personal standing with God into question, so it's over. You are not
allowed to teach here per SOP, and I am done with you.

You may ask questions or post in accord with messianic values only
in this section of the forum. Teach here again and you will be reported.
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/messianic-judaism-forum-statement-of-purpose.7916718/

 

[pat34lee]

pat4lee, neither the article at http://www.lightofmashiach.org/newcovenant.html, nor the article at http://www.hebroots.org/hebrootsarchive/0312/0312e.html say anything about Galatians 4 and 2 Cor 3. Please explain your view of those passages.

First, what are those proving to you? That the NC is in effect or that Torah is?

 

[gadar perets]

I tried to reason with you. Now you're down to flaming and calling my
personal standing with God into question, so it's over. You are not
allowed to teach here per SOP, and I am done with you.

You may ask questions or post in accord with messianic values only
in this section of the forum. Teach here again and you will be reported.
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/messianic-judaism-forum-statement-of-purpose.7916718/

I must be missing something. You seem to imply that Stan is teaching against the SOP, but the SOP says;

No anti-missionary/counter-missionary posts or teachings against the New Covenant books or against Yeshua as Messiah**
​

How can there be "New Covenant books" if there is no New Covenant yet?

 

[gadar perets]

First, what are those proving to you? That the NC is in effect or that Torah is?

http://www.lightofmashiach.org/newcovenant.html is trying to prove the NC is not in effect yet, but that Torah still is.
http://www.hebroots.org/hebrootsarchive/0312/0312e.html is trying to prove the NC and Torah are now in effect.

Now, will you please address the two passages I mentioned?

 

[Aryeh Jay]

I must be missing something. You seem to imply that Stan is teaching against the SOP, but the SOP says;

No anti-missionary/counter-missionary posts or teachings against the New Covenant books or against Yeshua as Messiah**
​

How can there be "New Covenant books" if there is no New Covenant yet?

Well, that is to keep the non-Messianic Jews from going all anti Christianity or anti Messianic Judaism on the forum. If it makes it easier for you to understand, substitute the word “New Testament”.


And I am pretty sure the SOP contains more than one sentence.


“*Congregational Rules: Do not teach or debate in any Congregational Forum unless you are truly a member and share its core beliefs and teachings. Questions and fellowship are allowed, proselytizing is not.”

 

[pat34lee]

Now, will you please address the two passages I mentioned?

I'm not going over two chapters verse for verse. What are your main points?

1 paragraph or less, please.

 

[BukiRob]

My point is, let's not make something false like xmas true.


If liars will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven, how could anything based on lies be good? Satan is the father of lies. Therefore, he deceived the church into observing such a fictitious holiday.


My intent is to help brethren break free from the grip of false traditions and walk in the truth as our Father desires us to. That may entail exposing xmas, easter, a Sunday Sabbath, false names like "the LORD" or "Jesus", etc.


My statement was fact, but I did not even remotely suggest that everyone lies to their children. You know full well that there are many professing Christians that tell their children December 25th is "Jesus' birthday". I'm glad you are not one of them.

As for his true date of birth, no one knows with certainty, but a good case can be made for Sept/Oct around the Feast of Tabernacles.

G-d does not have a problem with traditions as long as they do not supplant HIS decrees or appointed times. Yeshua clearly had no problem with the Festival of Lights as it is mentioned in one of the gospel accounts. He never spoke against it or rebuked anyone for celebrating it.

In this regard, I think the Paul speaks eloquently about allowing for grace based upon what the Father has called YOU to do. The vast majority of believers know that Yeshua was not born on the 25th very FEW know the suspected roots of the date used. More importantly, the modern observance of that holiday is primarily one of glorifying the Father.

 

[BukiRob]

There was a temple then right?

1 Corinthians 5:7 speaks of Christ our Passover ... Which is the feast he was referring to...Which is the lords supper or communion if you will, that is what we should keep .. Not keeping the old leaven which is the old covenant... As I understand it

We know Jesus will return and rebuild a temple and establish tabernacles, but until then we honor Christ through keeping the feast of unleaven bread through communion (not in a catholic sense) but through brotherhood remembering what the lord has done for us

If Christ was our Passover then sacrifices to the temple were no longer needed to be observed which was the proper way to keep Passover in those days

So what did the Jews do in their babylonian captivity? They did not have access to the temple. You know, Just like today!
So for that 70 years they were doomed under your view. Daniel was doomed as was every other righteous Jew in captivity

 

[BukiRob]

Yes, but the temple is not needed to keep the Feast Days.


Your understanding is not correct. Yes, Messiah is our Passover, but he died on Abib 14. The "feast" Paul spoke of started on the next day, Abib 15 which is day one of the seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread. We keep the "Lord's Supper" on the night in which he was betrayed (Abib 14). We keep the "feast" the following night.


Our brotherhood and honoring of Messiah takes place 365 days a year. YHWH desires for us to keep the FOUB for seven days to;

1) remember what He did for Israel in bringing them out of Egyptian slavery
2) remember what He has done for us in bringing us out of slavery to sin
3) to remind us to continually get the leaven of sin, hypocrisy, false doctrine, etc., out of our lives.​

We no longer need to sacrifice a Passover lamb since Yeshua fulfilled that aspect of Abib 14. We remember his death through the bread and cup, but we remember to live as he lived (unleavened) through keeping the Feast of Unleavened Bread from Abib 15-21.

AMEN!!!!

For a believer there can be no greater event to crystalize the entire gospel than Passover. Seen through the reality lens of Yeshua as our Messiah, the meaning and significance of the entire gospel is laid out with Passover and the Sedar.

It is without question my absolute most favorite event/day of the entire year.

 

[gadar perets]

I'm not going over two chapters verse for verse. What are your main points?

1 paragraph or less, please.

Had you replied to my initial post#52, you would know my main points. Here they are again:

Paul wrote the following in 2 Cor.3:6-11:

"Who also has made us able ministers of the new testament (covenant); not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.
But if the ministration of death [OC], written and engraved in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
How shall not the ministration of the spirit [NC] be rather glorious?
For if the ministration of condemnation [OC] be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness [NC] exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excels. For if that which is done away was glorious [OC] , much more that which remains is glorious [NC]."​

Believers in Messiah Yeshua are “ministers of the New Covenant”.

Paul also wrote an allegory of the two covenants in Galatians 4:22-31. His conclusion is this:

Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son [OC]: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the free woman.
So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free [NC]. Galatians 4:30-31​

All believers in Messiah Yeshua are to cast out the Old Covenant and become children of the New Covenant.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

All believers in Messiah Yeshua are to cast out the Old Covenant and become children of the New Covenant.

Please read the SOP for this area.

• No anti-Torah theology. i.e. No posts accusing or debating that Messianic Jews or Gentiles are under the law, re-erecting the wall of partition, Torah has been made invalid for today, or Messianic Jews or Gentiles should not keep the commandments in Torah that apply to them. It's not permitted to tell members to keep the Universal (Noachide) laws or not to keep Shabbat.