Is celebrating xmas a sin??

[gadar perets]

Please read the SOP for this area.

• No anti-Torah theology. i.e. No posts accusing or debating that Messianic Jews or Gentiles are under the law, re-erecting the wall of partition, Torah has been made invalid for today, or Messianic Jews or Gentiles should not keep the commandments in Torah that apply to them. It's not permitted to tell members to keep the Universal (Noachide) laws or not to keep Shabbat.

Who said anything about Torah being invalid for today? The law of the New Covenant IS Torah.

 

[gadar perets]

G-d does not have a problem with traditions as long as they do not supplant HIS decrees or appointed times. Yeshua clearly had no problem with the Festival of Lights as it is mentioned in one of the gospel accounts. He never spoke against it or rebuked anyone for celebrating it.

The Festival of Lights, while not being commanded, is based on celebrating the re-dedication of the temple. That is a far cry from the pagan and untruthful basis for xmas.

In this regard, I think the Paul speaks eloquently about allowing for grace based upon what the Father has called YOU to do. The vast majority of believers know that Yeshua was not born on the 25th very FEW know the suspected roots of the date used. More importantly, the modern observance of that holiday is primarily one of glorifying the Father.

Ignorance is not a valid excuse. I would say the "modern" observance is one of greed with the possible exception of how born again Christians keep it.

 

[danny ski]

Who said anything about Torah being invalid for today? The law of the New Covenant IS Torah.

The law of the New Covenant, whatever that may be, is NOT the Torah. The Torah is the five books of Moses. "You shall not add or subtract" it is written. So, don't.

 

[pat34lee]

Paul wrote the following in 2 Cor.3:6-11:

"Who also has made us able ministers of the new testament (covenant); not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.
But if the ministration of death [OC], written and engraved in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
How shall not the ministration of the spirit [NC] be rather glorious?
For if the ministration of condemnation [OC] be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness [NC] exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excels. For if that which is done away was glorious [OC] , much more that which remains is glorious [NC]."​

Believers in Messiah Yeshua are “ministers of the New Covenant”.

Paul also wrote an allegory of the two covenants in Galatians 4:22-31. His conclusion is this:

Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son [OC]: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the free woman.
So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free [NC]. Galatians 4:30-31​

All believers in Messiah Yeshua are to cast out the Old Covenant and become children of the New Covenant.

As to the spirit and letter of the law and the rest of 2 Cor 3:
http://www.eliyah.com/transcripts/02212009.html

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Yeshua was under the law, correct? Yes. And he observed the law
perfectly, did he not? Yes. If he broke the least of the laws of Torah,
he would have been a false prophet and no messiah, true? Of course.

2 of the laws that he could not break:

Deuteronomy 4:2, "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."

Deuteronomy 12:32, "What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it."

Definitive proof we are not in the New Covenant.

Quote from link below:

"Matthew 5:17-19, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Jesus said that until all is fulfilled, the Old Covenant is still in effect. So here's the question. When is, "till all be fulfilled"? The popular belief is that when Jesus said "it is finished" (John 19:30) on the cross, and the Temple vale tore from top to bottom, that was the fulfillment of all things. Another is that the fulfillment when Jesus said the following:

Luke 24:44, "And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.". "
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/covenant.html

How many future prophecies are there concerning Yeshua? Many.
So, all of them are not yet fulfilled. No laws have changed. No NC.

 

[gadar perets]

The law of the New Covenant, whatever that may be, is NOT the Torah. The Torah is the five books of Moses. "You shall not add or subtract" it is written. So, don't.

How can I be adding or subtracting if it is written?

Behold, the days come, says YHWH, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was an husband unto them, says YHWH:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says YHWH, I will put my law (Hebrew - my Torah) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Jeremiah 31:33)

כִּי זֹאת הַבְּרִית אֲשֶׁר אֶכְרֹת אֶת־בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל אַחֲרֵי הַיָּמִים הָהֵם נְאֻם־יְהוָה נָתַתִּי אֶת־תֹּֽורָתִי בְּקִרְבָּם וְעַל־לִבָּם אֶכְתֲּבֶנָּה וְהָיִיתִי לָהֶם לֵֽאלֹהִים וְהֵמָּה יִֽהְיוּ־לִי לְעָֽם׃ Jeremiah 31:33

 

[CodyFaith]

Christmas is a blessed time. Anyone who denies that either has their eyes closed or has some really skewed biased opinions about what the time of the year means to people.

Even secular society is able to recognize how blessed Christmas is.

If it's blessed by God, it's good enough for us, don't you think?

 

[gadar perets]

As to the spirit and letter of the law and the rest of 2 Cor 3:
http://www.eliyah.com/transcripts/02212009.html

http://www.eliyah.com/transcripts/02212009.html
Eliyah wrote;

2Corinthians 3:6 - who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.​

So they are sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, because Yahweh made them sufficient. As we know, Yahushua is the mediator of the new covenant.
​

I am not addressing the spirit vs. the letter, but the fact that believers in Messiah Yeshua are servants/ministers of the New Covenant. How can that be if the NC is not in effect yet? Are you a servant/minister of the New Covenant or not?

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Yeshua was under the law, correct? Yes. And he observed the law
perfectly, did he not? Yes. If he broke the least of the laws of Torah,
he would have been a false prophet and no messiah, true? Of course.

2 of the laws that he could not break:

Deuteronomy 4:2, "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."

Deuteronomy 12:32, "What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it."

Definitive proof we are not in the New Covenant

Huh??? What does that have to do with the New Covenant? Yes, I agree Yeshua kept every Sinai Covenant law that he was required to. The New Covenant did not take effect until his death. It was his shed blood that dedicated it.

Quote from link below:

"Matthew 5:17-19, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Jesus said that until all is fulfilled, the Old Covenant is still in effect. So here's the question. When is, "till all be fulfilled"? The popular belief is that when Jesus said "it is finished" (John 19:30) on the cross, and the Temple vale tore from top to bottom, that was the fulfillment of all things. Another is that the fulfillment when Jesus said the following:

Luke 24:44, "And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.". "
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/covenant.html

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/covenant.html
You are confusing the "Old Covenant" with the law. The "Old Covenant" (Sinai Covenant) entails more that just the law. You said, "Jesus said that until all is fulfilled, the Old Covenant is still in effect." He did not say "Old Covenant". He said "law". There is a law within the Sinai Covenant. That law is also within the New Covenant.

You still have not addressed Galatians 4:22-31.

How many future prophecies are there concerning Yeshua? Many.
So, all of them are not yet fulfilled. No laws have changed. No NC.

I agree, no laws have changed. They remain the same under the NC.

 

[gadar perets]

Christmas is a blessed time. Anyone who denies that either has their eyes closed or has some really skewed biased opinions about what the time of the year means to people.

Even secular society is able to recognize how blessed Christmas is.

If it's blessed by God, it's good enough for us, don't you think?

Where is it "blessed by God"? Is His blessing upon the Christmas trees; the yule logs; the presents that every gives to everyone else except Yeshua; the gluttony and drunkenness; etc? The ones that seem to be blessed the most are the merchants who push this holiday to the max for their own gain.

 

[CodyFaith]

Where is it "blessed by God"? Is His blessing upon the Christmas trees; the yule logs; the presents that every gives to everyone else except Yeshua; the gluttony and drunkenness; etc? The ones that seem to be blessed the most are the merchants who push this holiday to the max for their own gain.

I'm glad you asked that question.

The love. The love. The love. The love for the homeless, charity is at the most this time of year (and for the right reasons), the gathering together in warm places on cold days, the love of your family, family time and focus on each others company, gift giving, Christmas cheer and Christmas movies and such, tradition, the time where Christians can be a light to nations more and more because they take part in the blessing of the season, beautiful lights, sounds, music, carolers singing about Christ, I could go on and on.

How you look at those trivial things and don't see love is beyond me.

 

[danny ski]

How can I be adding or subtracting if it is written?

Behold, the days come, says YHWH, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was an husband unto them, says YHWH:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says YHWH, I will put my law (Hebrew - my Torah) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Jeremiah 31:33)

כִּי זֹאת הַבְּרִית אֲשֶׁר אֶכְרֹת אֶת־בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל אַחֲרֵי הַיָּמִים הָהֵם נְאֻם־יְהוָה נָתַתִּי אֶת־תֹּֽורָתִי בְּקִרְבָּם וְעַל־לִבָּם אֶכְתֲּבֶנָּה וְהָיִיתִי לָהֶם לֵֽאלֹהִים וְהֵמָּה יִֽהְיוּ־לִי לְעָֽם׃ Jeremiah 31:33

Be precise, finish the quote. Jeremiah 31 does not end at verse 33.

 

[gadar perets]

I'm glad you asked that question.

The love. The love. The love. The love for the homeless, charity is at the most this time of year (and for the right reasons), the gathering together in warm places on cold days, the love of your family, family time and focus on each others company, gift giving, Christmas cheer and Christmas movies and such, tradition, the time where Christians can be a light to nations more and more because they take part in the blessing of the season, beautiful lights, sounds, music, carolers singing about Christ, I could go on and on.

How you look at those trivial things and don't see love is beyond me.

I never said I don't see love. I see plenty of love. I also see plenty of love among Christians at their churches on Sunday as they rejoice in the "blessing of God" that they no longer have to keep that old law of the 7th day Sabbath. When service ends, they have their potluck luncheon giving thanks for God's "blessing" of being free to consume all manner of unclean meat. How many Christians go home after Christmas service to enjoy the "blessing" of a great ham supper? Are they really being blessed by God in those ways? No. They have convinced themselves in their minds that what they are doing is right and God is blessing them for it. I know first hand because I did just what they did for 30 years before my eyes were opened.

 

[gadar perets]

Be precise, finish the quote. Jeremiah 31 does not end at verse 33.

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the YHWH: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith YHWH: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Jer 31:35 Thus saith YHWH, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; YHWH of hosts is his name:
Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith YHWH, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Jer 31:37 Thus saith YHWH; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith YHWH.
Jer 31:38 Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that the city shall be built to YHWH from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
Jer 31:39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
Jer 31:40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto YHWH; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.
​

I see nothing in the rest of the chapter that addresses what is written in hearts and minds under the New Covenant. Let's cease with the guessing games and just say what you are believing.

 

[danny ski]

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the YHWH: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith YHWH: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Jer 31:35 Thus saith YHWH, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; YHWH of hosts is his name:
Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith YHWH, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Jer 31:37 Thus saith YHWH; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith YHWH.
Jer 31:38 Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that the city shall be built to YHWH from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
Jer 31:39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
Jer 31:40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto YHWH; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.
​

I see nothing in the rest of the chapter that addresses what is written in hearts and minds under the New Covenant. Let's cease with the guessing games and just say what you are believing.

Of course you don't see it. Jeremiah sets out conditions for the new covenant - universal knowledge of Gd and His Law. Obviously, that's not the case today. Hence, no new covenant.

 

[gadar perets]

Of course you don't see it. Jeremiah sets out conditions for the new covenant - universal knowledge of Gd and His Law. Obviously, that's not the case today. Hence, no new covenant.

You and I are not discussing whether or not the New Covenant is in effect now. We were discussing your statement that the law of the New Covenant is "not Torah". You accused me of adding or subtracting from what is written. I showed you it is written that "Torah" is the law that is written on hearts and minds under the New Covenant. Now you are changing the subject. Do you agree in light of Jeremiah 31:33 that "Torah" is that law? Once we get this issue settled, I will address your issues in post #93.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

It's a sin to celebrate Christmas because, "Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons."

So this is my humblest conviction. The LORD never abhorred Idolatry because the objects or the food sacrificed to them were anything but they were manifestations of Evil Spirits. Therefore, anything that pagans did even if to them they were just gods to I AM it was just a feast of demons. So this foolishness in Christianity that it converted a feast of darkness to ... (I can't say it). Who said, the LORD needed any celebrations from anyone as to borrow demonic days. It's an INSULT! Therefore, the LORD HATES IT!!! Suck it up and live like there's no tomorrow but please spare the LORD that INSULT

 

[danny ski]

You and I are not discussing whether or not the New Covenant is in effect now. We were discussing your statement that the law of the New Covenant is "not Torah". You accused me of adding or subtracting from what is written. I showed you it is written that "Torah" is the law that is written on hearts and minds under the New Covenant. Now you are changing the subject. Do you agree in light of Jeremiah 31:33 that "Torah" is that law? Once we get this issue settled, I will address your issues in post #93.

what is the law of the new covenant? Where can I find it? Especially in view of the fact that the new covenant is described by the prophet and it's clearly not here. The Torah is five books of Moses and I'm positive it contains no such thing as the law of the new covenant. If such "law" is not there, therefore it's an addition.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

You and I are not discussing whether or not the New Covenant is in effect now. We were discussing your statement that the law of the New Covenant is "not Torah". You accused me of adding or subtracting from what is written. I showed you it is written that "Torah" is the law that is written on hearts and minds under the New Covenant. Now you are changing the subject. Do you agree in light of Jeremiah 31:33 that "Torah" is that law? Once we get this issue settled, I will address your issues in post #93.

Christians are still under Torah (10 Commandments + laws of Sin in direct connection to them). The new covenant relieved us from the procedures of atonement but not from what was sinful besides (uncircumcision and unclean creatures). Otherwise, it's wrong to "curse your mother or father" under Torah and under the New Covenant!!!

 

[gadar perets]

what is the law of the new covenant? Where can I find it? Especially in view of the fact that the new covenant is described by the prophet and it's clearly not here. The Torah is five books of Moses and I'm positive it contains no such thing as the law of the new covenant. If such "law" is not there, therefore it's an addition.

You didn't answer my question. I'll ask again in a different way. If you don't answer, we can't move on.
Do you agree, in light of Jeremiah 31:33, that "Torah" will be written on the hearts and minds of people under the New Covenant whenever it comes?

 

[Linet Kihonge]

what is the law of the new covenant? Where can I find it? Especially in view of the fact that the new covenant is described by the prophet and it's clearly not here. The Torah is five books of Moses and I'm positive it contains no such thing as the law of the new covenant. If such "law" is not there, therefore it's an addition.

Why are you having a difficult time agreeing? Whether a person is under NT or OT we still know when we sin Against the LORD!!! If you think I'm lying say if anything in Lev 20 feels right!!! (minus creatures & punishment).

 

[danny ski]

You didn't answer my question. I'll ask again in a different way. If you don't answer, we can't move on.
Do you agree, in light of Jeremiah 31:33, that "Torah" will be written on the hearts and minds of people under the New Covenant whenever it comes?

What does the verse 33 mean? How exactly does it work? The answer is in verse 34. And none of that has come to pass . Therefore, no new covenant.