Is belief in the creation story a salvation issue?

[RickG]

Posting the same thing over and over and ignoring the question under discussion doesn't help your case. Is it a salvation issue? Yes or no.

No!

 

[Archivist]

No!

Thank you RickG.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

People spend a great deal of time debating the creation of the Earth and the creatures upon it. Some say the Genesis account is literal--God did it in six 24 hour days, Adam was the first man, Eve was the first woman. Others say that God used evolution to create man. Many fall somewhere between these two positions. Sometimes discussion here gets fairly heated.

My question: Does it really matter? Is this an issue that will determine one's salvation? If not, why do we spend so much time debating it? Why do some people seem determined to convert others to their view?

No. I realize I'm a sinner in need of Jesus' mercy and redemption without also having to interpret the first portions of Genesis in an ultra-literal way.

Peace
2Philovoid

 

[rjs330]

On the other hand, you are also including in your denunciation churches which have taught what they consider to be a complete and internally self-consistent position, one which they have held for centuries.

Did you read the Fathers in your university or not?

Oh yes we did. But it's interesting to,note that early church fathers didn't always agree either on things. As is the way of men. Not just on creation mind you, but in other things as well.

More church Fathers believed in the historical nature of Genesis and the six day of creation than didn't. Others were not sure. Its interesting to note that most that listed the age of the earth thought it less than 6000 years old. The other point that needs to,be,made is that those that thought it wasn't 6 days, based their thoughts either on the passage that says a day is like a 1000 years or they had difficulty with light being created before the sun.

Like I said I do not find a compelling biblical reason to denounce Genesis as anything but historical and accurate as written.

On the other hand, you are also including in your denunciation churches which have taught what they consider to be a complete and internally self-consistent position, one which they have held for centuries.

Did you read the Fathers in your university or not?

 

[Speedwell]

Oh yes we did. But it's interesting to,note that early church fathers didn't always agree either on things. As is the way of men. Not just on creation mind you, but in other things as well.

More church Fathers believed in the historical nature of Genesis and the six day of creation than didn't. Others were not sure. Its interesting to note that most that listed the age of the earth thought it less than 6000 years old. The other point that needs to,be,made is that those that thought it wasn't 6 days, based their thoughts either on the passage that says a day is like a 1000 years or they had difficulty with light being created before the sun.

Like I said I do not find a compelling biblical reason to denounce Genesis as anything but historical and accurate as written.

Alas, that was not my point, which was nothing to do with whether the Fathers thought Genesis historical but more about how much they cared. But I despair of ever making it. You are welcome to your Bible doctrine, I just pray that some of your coreligionists don't burn in hell for the manner in which they attempt to impose it on others.

 

[Archivist]

Alas, that was not my point, which was nothing to do with whether the Fathers thought Genesis historical but more about how much they cared. But I despair of ever making it. You are welcome to your Bible doctrine, I just pray that some of your coreligionists don't burn in hell for the manner in which they attempt to impose it on others.

Well said.

I have never told anyone who believes in the Genesis accounts that they will not be saved for not believing that God used evolution to create everything and everyone on Earth. However it has certainly happened the other way--people have told me that I will not be saved because I don't believe in a literal six day creation.

 

[rjs330]

Well said.

I have never told anyone who believes in the Genesis accounts that they will not be saved for not believing that God used evolution to create everything and everyone on Earth. However it has certainly happened the other way--people have told me that I will not be saved because I don't believe in a literal six day creation.

Well I,don't think that's right. We shouldn't be making stuff up regarding requirements of salvation. That's kind of what the Pharasees did wasn't it?

 

[RickG]

Well I,don't think that's right. We shouldn't be making stuff up regarding requirements of salvation. That's kind of what the Pharasees did wasn't it?

The Pharasees were the only Jewish sect of Jesus' time that believed in an after-life.

 

[Archivist]

Well I,don't think that's right. We shouldn't be making stuff up regarding requirements of salvation. That's kind of what the Pharasees did wasn't it?

Agreed. I'm still waiting for anyone to show where Scripture says that a literal reading of the Genesis creation account is a salvation requirement.

 

[rjs330]

The Pharasees were the only Jewish sect of Jesus' time that believed in an after-life.

Yeah I know but what I was referring to was them adding to the law things that weren't there.

 

[BobRyan]

Agreed. I'm still waiting for anyone to show where Scripture says that a literal reading of the Genesis creation account is a salvation requirement.

It's been done dozens of times. for example A moment ago #853

where your only response is your own claim not to see and address the details raised. But nobody is arguing that they can make you see the obvious.

I am still waiting for someone to claim they can make you see a post - or admit to a detail in a post that you don't want to see.

 

[BobRyan]

Oh yes we did. But it's interesting to,note that early church fathers didn't always agree either on things. As is the way of men. Not just on creation mind you, but in other things as well.

More church Fathers believed in the historical nature of Genesis and the six day of creation than didn't. Others were not sure. Its interesting to note that most that listed the age of the earth thought it less than 6000 years old. The other point that needs to,be,made is that those that thought it wasn't 6 days, based their thoughts either on the passage that says a day is like a 1000 years or they had difficulty with light being created before the sun.

Like I said I do not find a compelling biblical reason to denounce Genesis as anything but historical and accurate as written.

This is a good post.

We need not "pretend" that we can't read it.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't have any point to prove.

indeed.

by contrast the Bible answers the question beyond all doubt -- for those that believe the Bible --

But the topic of thsi thread is specifically whether belief in the Genesis creation account is a salvation issue. No one has yet convinced me that it is.

Because your "strategy" has been to 'ignore every detail in the posts' and then circle back to "I still don't see anything".

==============================================

By contrast we had this irrefutable post --

-

In "theory" this thread is about what the Bible says regarding the significance of the Bible account of creation and how it pertains to Gospel - salvation.

Which got this response.

====================================

As we saw here that -- the Word of God places the creation fact - as the basis for true worship.

John is informed by Genesis 1, and accepts the Bible rather than rejecting it...

John knows his readers are informed by it... assumes they accept it.

Notice that John 1 is not blind faith evolutionism - just as Genesis 1 is not.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

Genes 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

And "yes" John knew of Ex 20:11 so also did his readers

Rev 14:6-7
6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

Revelation 4:
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
11 “You are worthy, O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist and were created.”



John 1
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

Genes 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

=============================================
T.E's have found a "tiny island" for themselves and Bible believing Christians are not going there with them - neither are the atheists and agnostics apparently. (I don't see many Hindus or Buddhists arguing that the Bible is true - except it is bent to preach darwinism)
===================================================

And apparently had no answer for this post than to ignore every detail listed as if blind or could not see for some other reason.

Which is about what we would have expected since these are Bible texts.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Consider this, no one honestly thinks any [Christian] should agree with the nazis.

 

[RDKirk]

People spend a great deal of time debating the creation of the Earth and the creatures upon it. Some say the Genesis account is literal--God did it in six 24 hour days, Adam was the first man, Eve was the first woman. Others say that God used evolution to create man. Many fall somewhere between these two positions. Sometimes discussion here gets fairly heated.

My question: Does it really matter? Is this an issue that will determine one's salvation? If not, why do we spend so much time debating it? Why do some people seem determined to convert others to their view?

"I believe in God the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth...."

I believe that statement is a salvational necessity.

The details, whether objectively true or not, are for our generation better used and understood as instructional fables. Take, for instance Julius Caesar's "Gallic Wars." The details may or may not be historically accurate, but generals still study it because it teaches much about the character of war and warriors.

The purpose of scripture, after all, is not to be a textbook of cosmology, but a syllabus for instruction in righteousness. What does the creation story teach me about what I need to do for God today? That's what I study to know.

It appears that a lot of people's faith is based on their understanding of God's created things (which includes scripture) rather than upon God Himself. If their understanding of His created things is challenged then their faith in God Himself is shaken...or that appears to be their fear.

My belief in God is not based on His created things and certainly not on how I understand them.

I fully understand that the wonders of God's creation are ultimately beyond my comprehension, thus my understanding is subject to error, and I acknowledge that up front. If I'm proven wrong about how I understand something God has created, it will not shake my faith in God Himself. I believe He created it all, regardless how He did it.

 

[BobRyan]

Consider this, no one honestly thinks any [Christian] should agree with the nazis.

True - but notice that one of those opposing the bible on this thread - essentially argues that if you ignore every detail that is posted - nobody can make you see any answer/any-point no matter how obvious the point is.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

True - but notice that one of those opposing the bible on this thread - essentially argues that if you ignore every detail that is posted - nobody can make you see any answer/any-point no matter how obvious the point is.

That sentence is too complicated for me.
But
I think(and have always thought) basically YOU do not agree with the nazis (NOTHING YOU POSTED EVER seems to agree with the nazis).
Right?

 

[BobRyan]

That sentence is too complicated for me.
But
I think(and have always thought) basically YOU do not agree with the nazis (NOTHING YOU POSTED EVER seems to agree with the nazis).
Right?

true - they were very driven by moral ethics derived from faith in evolutionism.

My point was that though our statement is true - as are my statements - there are others on this thread that argue that they "Can not see" posts that show how the Gospel is linked to the Bible statements on creation - though the Bible starts with this and the Gospel of John uses it as the foundation for the Gospel. These who claim they "Cannot see" also cannot be made to see - against their will. They must choose at least some level of objectivity for this to work.

 

[Archivist]

Alas, that was not my point, which was nothing to do with whether the Fathers thought Genesis historical but more about how much they cared. But I despair of ever making it. You are welcome to your Bible doctrine, I just pray that some of your coreligionists don't burn in hell for the manner in which they attempt to impose it on others.

but those of us who believed that God used evolution to create the world aren't attempting to impose anything on others. I have never told anyone that they will not be saved if they don't believe that evolution happened. I have, however, been told by some who believe in the Genesis accounts that I must also believe in them or I will not be saved.

 

[Archivist]

indeed.

by contrast the Bible answers the question beyond all doubt -- for those that believe the Bible --



Because your "strategy" has been to 'ignore every detail in the posts' and then circle back to "I still don't see anything".

==============================================

By contrast we had this irrefutable post --

-

In "theory" this thread is about what the Bible says regarding the significance of the Bible account of creation and how it pertains to Gospel - salvation.

Which got this response.

====================================

As we saw here that -- the Word of God places the creation fact - as the basis for true worship.

John is informed by Genesis 1, and accepts the Bible rather than rejecting it...

John knows his readers are informed by it... assumes they accept it.

Notice that John 1 is not blind faith evolutionism - just as Genesis 1 is not.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

Genes 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

And "yes" John knew of Ex 20:11 so also did his readers

Rev 14:6-7
6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

Revelation 4:
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
11 “You are worthy, O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist and were created.”



John 1
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

Genes 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

=============================================
T.E's have found a "tiny island" for themselves and Bible believing Christians are not going there with them - neither are the atheists and agnostics apparently. (I don't see many Hindus or Buddhists arguing that the Bible is true - except it is bent to preach darwinism)
===================================================

And apparently had no answer for this post than to ignore every detail listed as if blind or could not see for some other reason.

Which is about what we would have expected since these are Bible texts.

This is like talking to a broken record. You just keep repeating the same thing over and over.

As I have said numerous times, I believe that God created everything. Posting numerous Biblical verses saying that He created everything doesn't disagree with my belief. I just believe that God used evolution to create everything. I'm still waiting for you or anyone else to post anything showing that belief in the Genesis creation account is a salvation issue.