Is belief in the creation story a salvation issue?

[Archivist]

People spend a great deal of time debating the creation of the Earth and the creatures upon it. Some say the Genesis account is literal--God did it in six 24 hour days, Adam was the first man, Eve was the first woman. Others say that God used evolution to create man. Many fall somewhere between these two positions. Sometimes discussion here gets fairly heated.

My question: Does it really matter? Is this an issue that will determine one's salvation? If not, why do we spend so much time debating it? Why do some people seem determined to convert others to their view?

 

[Papias]

P Does it really matter? Is this an issue that will determine one's salvation?

It's not a salvation issue. Some say it is, but even those people usually say that it is only a salvation issue due to where it leads (see below), and agree that it isn't a salvation issue in and of itself.

why do we spend so much time debating it? Why do some people seem determined to convert others to their view?

There are two questions there. For a debate to happen, the issue has to be cared about by both sides of the discussion (otherwise, one side says "meh.", and the discussion is over.). So you are actually asking two questions: 1. Why do evolution supporters care? and 2. Why do creationists care?

After being in these discussion for over 20 years, and seeing all the arguments (from both sides) many times over from many different people, posting literally thousands of messages about this topic (and reading dozens of thousands of posts on it), the answers to both questions above seem pretty clear to me. So here are my answers.

First, the easier one - question #1. Why do evolution supporters (like myself) care to discuss this?

Because evolution is not only supported beyond a reasonable doubt by evidence, but is critical to many of the technologies that run our modern world. By denying evolution, one prevents oneself from being able to contribute in many areas, and hence to have a good job. Thus teaching evolution denial to kids often robs them of a secure future, and thus hurts our society and everyone in it. Evolution denial also hurts Christianity, making the Gospel look like willfully ignorant mumblings, as St. Augustine pointed out centuries ago. I'll leave it at that, because I suspect you are more interested in question #2.

Question #2. Why do creationists care to discuss evolution?

Because they don't see Genesis as "looking like" or "intended as" a metaphor. Thus, as the word of God intended literally, accepting evolution would mean intentionally and knowingly rejecting God's word. If that's done, that's blasphemous - regardless of evidence. Or, even if it's unclear whether or not it is intended literally, rejecting a literal reading of any scripture that is not clearly non-literal call into question all other scripture, allowing it to be read non-literally. So what's next? Christ's miracles were non-literal, so they didn't actually happen (though in John's Gospel they are routinely used as proof of Christ's divinity - so then Christ is no longer divine?)? Then we stop seeing the resurrection as literally true? Is there anything left of the Christian faith if one can take any and everything as non-literal? Thus, accepting evolution means rejecting Genesis, which leads to a rejection of the whole Bible (and hence losing one's salvation), which can make evolution a salvation issue.

Creationists, if that's not your main concern, or if I misstated it, please correct me.

So there's your answer.

Regarding question #2 (you main question), let me add my own thoughts.

I think the concerns raised above can be (indeed, must be) ignored by any Christian today. Why? Because that train has left the station long ago. Christians today already take large portions of scripture non-literally - portions that have a stronger claim to a literal reading than Genesis. Christians today can already read larger portions non-literally without any problem with calling fundamental doctrines into question.

Which sections? Many. Some examples:
Literally dozens of sections of scripture make it undeniably clear that a literal reading of the Bibles gives a flat earth under a hard sky dome. There is a much stronger case for biblical globe-denial than there is for evolution denial. You can see some of them in post #32 here: http://www.christianforums.com/thre...ustify-not-being-flat-earthers.7926035/page-2


Jesus' return by the 3rd century. There is a much stronger case for Jesus' return before 200 AD than there is for evolution denial. Large sections of scripture, and many of Jesus' own words, are taken non-literally by nearly all Christians today on this topic.

Acceptance of slavery. There is a much stronger case for biblical support of slavery than there is for evolution denial. Large sections of scripture - including the 10 commandments, are taken non-literally (or just outright ignored) by nearly all Christians today on this topic.

A lower status (as property) of women. There is a much stronger case for biblical sexism than there is for evolution denial. Large sections of scripture - including the 10 commandments, are taken non-literally (or just outright ignored) by nearly all Christians today on this topic.

and so on. In the near future, as we move past many other outdated beliefs, new sections will join this growing list of topics where we Christians move past a literal reading of our scripture. Some of these are already pretty clear. Within a few decades the condemnation of homosexuality will likely be seen in the same way as slavery and sexism. The same goes for spanking children. Adding evolution to the list above will be easy and inevitable - especially since one can make a good case for a non-literal reading (much more so than any of these other topics).

In Christ-

Papias

 

[Archivist]

It's not a salvation issue. Some say it is, but even those people usually say that it is only a salvation issue due to where it leads (see below), and agree that it isn't a salvation issue in and of itself.



There are two questions there. For a debate to happen, the issue has to be cared about by both sides of the discussion (otherwise, one side says "meh.", and the discussion is over.). So you are actually asking two questions: 1. Why do evolution supporters care? and 2. Why do creationists care?

After being in these discussion for over 20 years, and seeing all the arguments (from both sides) many times over from many different people, posting literally thousands of messages about this topic (and reading dozens of thousands of posts on it), the answers to both questions above seem pretty clear to me. So here are my answers.

First, the easier one - question #1. Why do evolution supporters (like myself) care to discuss this?

Because evolution is not only supported beyond a reasonable doubt by evidence, but is critical to many of the technologies that run our modern world. By denying evolution, one prevents oneself from being able to contribute in many areas, and hence to have a good job. Thus teaching evolution denial to kids often robs them of a secure future, and thus hurts our society and everyone in it. Evolution denial also hurts Christianity, making the Gospel look like willfully ignorant mumblings, as St. Augustine pointed out centuries ago. I'll leave it at that, because I suspect you are more interested in question #2.

Question #2. Why do creationists care to discuss evolution?

Because they don't see Genesis as "looking like" or "intended as" a metaphor. Thus, as the word of God intended literally, accepting evolution would mean intentionally and knowingly rejecting God's word. If that's done, that's blasphemous - regardless of evidence. Or, even if it's unclear whether or not it is intended literally, rejecting a literal reading of any scripture that is not clearly non-literal call into question all other scripture, allowing it to be read non-literally. So what's next? Christ's miracles were non-literal, so they didn't actually happen (though in John's Gospel they are routinely used as proof of Christ's divinity - so then Christ is no longer divine?)? Then we stop seeing the resurrection as literally true? Is there anything left of the Christian faith if one can take any and everything as non-literal?

Creationists, if that's not your main concern, or if I misstated it, please correct me.

So there's your answer.

Regarding question #2 (you main question), let me add my own thoughts.

I think the concerns raised above can be (indeed, must be) ignored by any Christian today. Why? Because that train has left the station long ago. Christians today already take large portions of scripture non-literally - portions that have a stronger claim to a literal reading than Genesis. Christians today can already read larger portions non-literally without any problem with calling fundamental doctrines into question.

Which sections? Many. Some examples:
Literally dozens of sections of scripture make it undeniably clear that a literal reading of the Bibles gives a flat earth under a hard sky dome. There is a much stronger case for biblical globe-denial than there is for evolution denial. You can see some of them in post #32 here: http://www.christianforums.com/thre...ustify-not-being-flat-earthers.7926035/page-2


Jesus' return by the 3rd century. There is a much stronger case for Jesus' return before 200 AD than there is for evolution denial. Large sections of scripture, and many of Jesus' own words, are taken non-literally by nearly all Christians today on this topic.

Acceptance of slavery. There is a much stronger case for biblical support of slavery than there is for evolution denial. Large sections of scripture - including the 10 commandments, are taken non-literally (or just outright ignored) by nearly all Christians today on this topic.

A lower status (as property) of women. There is a much stronger case for biblical sexism than there is for evolution denial. Large sections of scripture - including the 10 commandments, are taken non-literally (or just outright ignored) by nearly all Christians today on this topic.

and so on. In the near future, as we move past many other outdated beliefs, new sections will join this growing list of topics where we Christians move past a literal reading of our scripture. Some of these are already pretty clear. Within a few decades the condemnation of homosexuality will likely be seen in the same way as slavery and sexism. The same goes for spanking children. Adding evolution to the list above will be easy and inevitable - especially since one can make a good case for a non-literal reading (much more so than any of these other topics).

In Christ-

Papias

Thank you. And for the record, I fall on the non-literal reading/evolution side of the debate. My reason for starting the thread was that I've had people tell me that it was a salvation issue, and that I had to accept a literal reading of Genesis. Obviously I don't buy that.

 

[Papias]

Thank you. And for the record, I fall on the non-literal reading/evolution side of the debate. My reason for starting the thread was that I've had people tell me that it was a salvation issue, and that I had to accept a literal reading of Genesis. Obviously I don't buy that.

Yep. Oh, I've added a sentence to the end of the #2 answer, to help clarify why some see it as a salvation issue.

 

[miamited]

Hi archivist,

The question can't be answered with any definitive claim of the Scriptures. However, there are some claims made in the Scriptures that do tell us that born again believers will know the truth.

So, the underlying question is: If there is a truth about God that He has revealed to us and we don't believe or understand that truth - is such a person born again? Jesus said to his disciples that when we are born again it is the job of the indwelling Spirit to then lead us into all truth. Now, I absolutely believe that the all truth is regarding the things of God and not some understanding of engineering principles or accounting practices.

Then we must grapple with the apparent truth that Jesus also told his disciples that not everyone who claims the title of christian will be saved. What's going to be the dividing line?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Jesus simply said "unless you change and become like a little child, you can never enter the kingdom of heaven".
So, "salvation" is simple, as for a little child.
Later, if someone rejects Jesus or God's Word(or has rejected it all along), that's then a different story, and is not having faith in Jesus like a little child.
So, then, it could be a salvation issue.
That depends entirely upon God and His Grace.
Matthew 18:3 ►
Parallel Verses
New International Version
And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.



New Living Translation
Then he said, "I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven.

English Standard Version
and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Berean Study Bible
"Truly I tell you," He said, "unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[miamited]

Jesus simply said "unless you change and become like a little child, you can never enter the kingdom of heaven".
So, "salvation" is simple, as for a little child.
Later, if someone rejects Jesus or God's Word(or has rejected it all along), that's then a different story, and is not having faith in Jesus like a little child.
So, then, it could be a salvation issue.
That depends entirely upon God and His Grace.
Matthew 18:3 ►
Parallel Verses
New International Version
And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.



New Living Translation
Then he said, "I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven.

English Standard Version
and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Berean Study Bible
"Truly I tell you," He said, "unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Hi YSJ,

Yes, Jesus did also say that. What is your understanding of what he meant by 'become like little children'? I mean, obviously, we can't be 3' tall with baby teeth in our mouth.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Archivist]

Hi YSJ,

Yes, Jesus did also say that. What is your understanding of what he meant by 'become like little children'? I mean, obviously, we can't be 3' tall with baby teeth in our mouth.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

I had the same question. What does "become like little children" have to do with believing or not believing the Genesis stories?

 

[Archie the Preacher]

People spend a great deal of time debating the creation of the Earth and the creatures upon it...

My question: Does it really matter? Is this an issue that will determine one's salvation? If not, why do we spend so much time debating it? Why do some people seem determined to convert others to their view?

Does it really matter? No, it isn't a salvation issue, but it is an understanding God matter and it does tie in with growing as a Christian.

From where I stand - far more as you describe yourself further down the thread than the YEC belief - it looks to me like the YEC faction seems to think YECreationism is in fact a salvation issue; no one who fails to believe it really believes in the Bible at all. I do not agree.

I engage at times arguing for a larger view of God. I do believe God wants me involved in this to challenge mostly undecided people to look at the larger picture and grow as God intends. I know God encourages all His followers to be the most discerning and thinking (not always coinciding with 'educated') people as possible.

That is my reason for continuing to argue and 'convert' some to my view. I will not speculate on the motives of the YEC side, other than to say after discussing and arguing the issue (both logically and with screaming and waving of arms) for over fifty years now, I am convinced of their motivations. And the motivations are less than charitable to express. Something along the line of Matthew 23:15.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

I had the same question. What does "become like little children" have to do with believing or not believing the Genesis stories?

Little children are totally dependent on their parents or other adults for life.

We (Christian believers) are to be children and God is to be the adult in our lives. We are totally dependent on Him. Coming to that realization is part of our 'conversion' experience.

I see no reason to believe 'gullibility' is part of the idea.

 

[miamited]

Hi archie,

You responded:

I see no reason to believe 'gullibility' is part of the idea.

But don't the Scriptures themselves say that the things of God are as foolishness to those who are perishing. You seem to think it foolish that someone would believe that God really did know what He was saying and meant exactly what He did say when He caused to be written, "For in six days God made the heavens and the earth and all that is in them."

Hmmmm. That just gives me pause.

I realize that you likely think of yourself, since you claim to be a preacher, a teacher of the truth of God. What if you're wrong about all this? What if God did know what He was saying and meant what He said when He caused to be written, "For in six days God made the heavens and the earth and all that is in them," and here you are determinedly teaching, while holding yourself up as a preacher, that those who believe such a thing are 'gullible'. Do you believe that the one you claim to represent as a teacher and disciple of, finds that position faithful? If He did mean to write just exactly what He caused to be written and meant the words to be understood in the normal every day understanding of the words. Is the one who teaches that the account as written and simply understood can't possibly mean that God did create the heavens and the earth in six days, a faithful and true servant?

Now, you likely think to yourself that it doesn't matter. What if you're wrong. What if all those that Jesus turns away who did great miracles in his name and drove out demons in his name, just didn't believe him. And, because they didn't believe him, then he just didn't know them. I mean, honestly, it surely seems that these people are not the ones that Jesus spoke of who would be embarrassed of him or those who would not proclaim his name. What if we get to the end and these people are singled out just because, while they obviously had enough faith in Jesus to call on his name to drive out demons and do miracles, they didn't believe him.

What if God's going to determine our righteousness in exactly the same way that He determined Abraham's righteousness -- he believed God.

Just questions to ponder.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi all,

I'll leave you guys to it. I've made my position known.

God bless you all,
In Christ, Ted

 

[Archie the Preacher]

It is clear you think salvation is linked to YECism.

Hi archie... What if you're wrong about all this[YEC theology]?

What if YOU are wrong?

Here is what you have never considered: I am aware of what I know and I fully realize many, many (otherwise) good Christian people disagree with my knowledge and think me heretical. It's not like I've never considered it.

Now. How many times have you prayed about the non-questioning assumption of Ussherite teaching? How many times have you prayed about it and studied the matter, both from a Biblical textual view AND the science involved in those determinations?

Just questions to ponder.

Happy pondering! May God grant you peace in the matter and understanding.

God's blessing and love to you; and the peace exceeding all understanding.
Archie, a so-so preacher and fully redeemed child of God.

 

[miamited]

Hi archie,

You asked:

How many times have you prayed about the non-questioning assumption of Ussherite teaching?

As often as I have studied the text I have prayed for wisdom and understanding through God's Holy Spirit. For me, it's not Ussherite teaching. I believed the literal and simple biblical account from very early on in my new life. I didn't even know who Ussher was until several years later in dialog with others. And none of my understandings are what I consider 'non-questioning assumptions'. You load your responses with the firepower of unfounded claims. What in the world would even have given you some understanding that I even have any 'non-questioning assumptions' based on Ussherite teachings? That's a pure assumption of your own.

Then you wrote to me:

Happy pondering! May God grant you peace in the matter and understanding.

I am firmly convicted that He already has. I have the sure account of His words. For in six days God made the heavens and the earth and all that is in them.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Speedwell]

Is the one who teaches that the account as written and simply understood can't possibly mean that God did create the heavens and the earth in six days, a faithful and true servant?


[/QUOTE]
What about the one who teaches that the inspiration of scripture must be plenary verbal inspiration and the text must be simply understood?

What if God's going to determine our righteousness in exactly the same way that He determined Abraham's righteousness -- he believed God.

And so we must believe God too, as interpreted by Miami Ted and his co-religionists? I don't see how that follows.

 

[Archivist]

I am firmly convicted that He already has. I have the sure account of His words. For in six days God made the heavens and the earth and all that is in them.

Then which creation story in Genesis do we believe, because there are differences.

 

[miamited]

Then which creation story in Genesis do we believe, because there are differences.

Hi archivist,

Sure there are differences. They are told with two different intentions. One to describe how God made everything. The second focuses specifically on man and his first interactions with the new creation. But, the one that God reinforces repeatedly in later mention of His work in creating this realm is the one in which He says that He created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them in 6 days.

I'm going with that one and it is exactly how God has written it to us in His word. You see, I don't have a problem looking at all the supposed scientific evidence that man has cobbled together and listening to all the reasons that man says explains a billion year old creation and knowing that it just isn't right. It completely overlooks the evidence that God has again and again and again shown in the Scriptures that when He does something, He can bend, break and mutilate any natural laws that we know that we have to live with.

If God wants the light of all the stars to be visible across the universe at the very moment that He commanded them to exist - He can do that! Just as He can make water stand on its head. God can make the shadow of the sun go backwards. Making other light to act outside of its natural properties is a piece of cake. God can make the sun stand still in its position in the sky and life still goes on just normal upon the earth. God can do that!

So, all you guys can believe all these proofs of men that have been claimed through the scientific method all you want. I'm standing with God. For in six days God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them. Go God!!!!

God bless you,
In Christ, Ted

 

[Archivist]

Sure there are differences. They are told with two different intentions. One to describe how God made everything. The second focuses specifically on man and his first interactions with the new creation. But, the one that God reinforces repeatedly in later mention of His work in creating this realm is the one in which He says that He created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them in 6 days.

I'm going with that one and it is exactly how God has written it to us in His word. You see, I don't have a problem looking at all the supposed scientific evidence that man has cobbled together and listening to all the reasons that man says explains a billion year old creation and knowing that it just isn't right. It completely overlooks the evidence that God has again and again and again shown in the Scriptures that when He does something, He can bend, break and mutilate any natural laws that we know that we have to live with.

If God wants the light of all the stars to be visible across the universe at the very moment that He commanded them to exist - He can do that! Just as He can make water stand on its head. God can make the shadow of the sun go backwards. Making other light to act outside of its natural properties is a piece of cake. God can make the sun stand still in its position in the sky and life still goes on just normal upon the earth. God can do that!

So, all you guys can believe all these proofs of men that have been claimed through the scientific method all you want. I'm standing with God. For in six days God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them. Go God!!!!

So there are two stories, but you admit that you are picking one over the other.

You have given me no reason to believe that this is a salvation issue.

 

[miamited]

So there are two stories, but you admit that you are picking one over the other.

You have given me no reason to believe that this is a salvation issue.

Hi archivist,

Sorry. Just as you didn't understand my response to you, you likely don't understand a lot of other simple things. However, you're free to believe as you will. As for me, I'm going with God's claim that He made the heavens and the earth and all that is in them in six days.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Archivist]

Sorry. Just as you didn't understand my response to you, you likely don't understand a lot of other simple things. However, you're free to believe as you will. As for me, I'm going with God's claim that He made the heavens and the earth and all that is in them in six days.

Debate tactic used when one has nothing valid to say--simply offer insults. I can't find anything in any of your statements in this posts that shows me that this is a salvation issue, therefore I obviously cannot understand "simple things." Please keep your insults to yourself. I try to be polite on CF, it is unfortunate that you apparently cannot be polite.