Is belief in the creation story a salvation issue?

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Speedwell

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hint - each time one points out that Genesis is in direct conflict with blind faith evolutionism - we have a bevy if T.E.'s rising p on this board claiming that Creationists are just reading Genesis wrong and that is why it appears to them that the genesis account is not compatible with Darwinism.
Of course it's not compatible with "Darwinism," any more than Goldilocks and the Three Bears is compatible with modern ursine zoology. You are reading Genesis wrong if you expect it to be compatible with any science, creation or regular. Forcing science to authenticate a 6000 year old Earth is as dumb as forcing scripture to authenticate an ancient cosmos.
 
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Archivist

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"Expunging of the Judeo-Christian doctrine of the divine origin of humans from mainline German (liberal) theology and its schools, and replacing it with Darwinism, openly contributed to the acceptance of Social Darwinism that culminated in the tragedy of the holocaust.1 Darwin’s theory, as modified by Haeckel,2,3,4,5,6 Chamberlain7 and others, clearly contributed to the death of over nine million people in concentration camps, and about 40 million other humans in a war that cost about six trillion dollars. Furthermore, the primary reason that Nazism reached to the extent of the holocaust was the widespread acceptance of Social Darwinism by the scientific and academic community.1,8,9,10"

You are speaking of the idea of Social Darwinism, which attempted to apply the concept of survival of the fittest to in human society. Darwin had nothing to do with the development of Social Darwinism. In fact what the Nazis did goes completely against Darwin's idea of natural selection. While some right-wing religious extremists have attempted to tie Social Darwinism to evolution, there is no real connection. In fact, as I said, the Nazis rejected human evolution from animals. They rejected the common origin of the different human races, claiming that Aryans and Jews could not have shared a common ancestor.

If, in fact, the Nazis based their views on Darwin, perhaps you wouldn't mind explaining why they banned his books?
http://www.library.arizona.edu/exhibits/burnedbooks/documents.htm#guidelines
 
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Archivist

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Once again ignoring the same details over and over again and then claiming you cant see details - is not helping your argument.

Why not respond to the details instead of ignoring them.

Are you asking this because you don't think the Gospel has anything to do with salvation after reading those details carefully?

If so - how did you come to that conclusion?

I have responded to the details of your posts; you ignored my response.

Perhaps you wouldn't mind pointing out exactly where the verses you kepp posting specifically say that belief in the Genesis creation account is a salvation issue.
 
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BobRyan

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I've read the Gospel, and it's compatible with the fact of evolution.

you may be wrong on both counts let's see --

Are you informed to the point of actually addressing the details that refute the story you are telling?

As we saw here that -- the Word of God places the creation fact - as the basis for true worship.

John is informed by Genesis 1, and accepts the Bible rather than rejecting it...

John knows his readers are informed by it... assumes they accept it.

Notice that John 1 is not blind faith evolutionism - just as Genesis 1 is not.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

Genes 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

And "yes" John knew of Ex 20:11 so also did his readers

Rev 14:6-7
6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.

Revelation 4:
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
11 “You are worthy, O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist and were created.”



John 1
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

Genes 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

=============================================
T.E's have found a "tiny island" for themselves and Bible believing Christians are not going there with them - neither are the atheists and agnostics apparently. (I don't see many Hindus or Buddhists arguing that the Bible is true - except it is bent to preach darwinism)
===================================================

And apparently had no answer for this post than to ignore every detail listed as if blind or could not see for some other reason.

Which is about what we would have expected since these are Bible texts.
 
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BobRyan

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You are speaking of the idea of Social Darwinism, which attempted to apply the concept of survival of the fittest to in human society.

Darwin claims that humans came about in the first place because of the stories imagined in blind-faith evolutionism - the Nazi's then applied that reasoning to humanity for 'the next step' in their "survival of the fittest" program to create the miguided idea of a "master race" --

As we all know.
 
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BobRyan

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"Expunging of the Judeo-Christian doctrine of the divine origin of humans from mainline German (liberal) theology and its schools, and replacing it with Darwinism, openly contributed to the acceptance of Social Darwinism that culminated in the tragedy of the holocaust.1 Darwin’s theory, as modified by Haeckel,2,3,4,5,6 Chamberlain7 and others, clearly contributed to the death of over nine million people in concentration camps, and about 40 million other humans in a war that cost about six trillion dollars. Furthermore, the primary reason that Nazism reached to the extent of the holocaust was the widespread acceptance of Social Darwinism by the scientific and academic community.1,8,9,10"

If, in fact, the Nazis based their views on Darwin, perhaps you wouldn't mind explaining why they banned his books?
http://www.library.arizona.edu/exhibits/burnedbooks/documents.htm#guidelines

A. as "if" the Nazi's were not insane.
B. As IF promoting their own "social darwinism" is "Banning evolutionism"???

"By examining Hitler’s ideology, the official biology curriculum, the writings of Nazi anthropologists, and Nazi periodicals, we find that Nazi racial theorists did indeed embrace human and racial evolution. They not only taught that humans had evolved from primates, but they believed the Aryan or Nordic race had evolved toa higher level than other races because of the harsh climatic conditions that influenced natural selection. They also claimed that Darwinism underpinned specific elements of Nazi racial ideology, including racial inequality, the necessity of theracial struggle for existence, and collectivism."

Turns out - details matter.

"In this essay I examine the following evidence to demonstrate overwhelmingly that Nazi racial thinkers embraced human and racial evolution: 1) Hitler believed in human evolution.
2) The official Nazi school curriculum prominently featured biological evolution, including human evolution.
3) Nazi racial anthropologists, including SS anthropologists, uniformly endorsed human evolution and integrated evolution intotheir racial ideology. 4) Nazi periodicals, including those on racial ideology, embraced human evolution.
5) Nazi materials designed to inculcate the Nazi worldview among
SS and military men promoted human evolution as an integral part of the Nazi worldview."

https://www.csustan.edu/sites/defau.../Weikart/Darwinism-in-Nazi-Racial-Thought.pdf

see the link

Then "read" before attacking Christians just because they know the truth about history and the Bible.
 
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Speedwell

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you may be wrong on both counts let's see --

Are you informed to the point of actually addressing the details that refute the story you are telling?
Accepted it as what? The literal, inerrant, perspicuous and self-interpreting product of plenary verbal inspiration? LOL!

That is nothing but the "Calling Christ a Liar" argument done over with John.

P1 John wouldn't refer to Genesis unless he agreed with my interpretation.
P2. John refers to Genesis.
C. John agrees with my interpretation
 
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Archivist

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in real life?

And did you resolve the issue or simply post more self-conflicted ideas?

You ignored my response so I guess you wouldn't know. Are you always so rude?
 
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Archivist

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A. as "if" the Nazi's were not insane.
B. As IF promoting their own "social darwinism" is "Banning evolutionism"???

"By examining Hitler’s ideology, the official biology curriculum, the writings of Nazi anthropologists, and Nazi periodicals, we find that Nazi racial theorists did indeed embrace human and racial evolution. They not only taught that humans had evolved from primates, but they believed the Aryan or Nordic race had evolved toa higher level than other races because of the harsh climatic conditions that influenced natural selection. They also claimed that Darwinism underpinned specific elements of Nazi racial ideology, including racial inequality, the necessity of theracial struggle for existence, and collectivism."

Turns out - details matter.

"In this essay I examine the following evidence to demonstrate overwhelmingly that Nazi racial thinkers embraced human and racial evolution: 1) Hitler believed in human evolution.
2) The official Nazi school curriculum prominently featured biological evolution, including human evolution.
3) Nazi racial anthropologists, including SS anthropologists, uniformly endorsed human evolution and integrated evolution intotheir racial ideology. 4) Nazi periodicals, including those on racial ideology, embraced human evolution.
5) Nazi materials designed to inculcate the Nazi worldview among
SS and military men promoted human evolution as an integral part of the Nazi worldview."

https://www.csustan.edu/sites/defau.../Weikart/Darwinism-in-Nazi-Racial-Thought.pdf

see the link

I already said that a few right-wing fundamentalists had incorrectly made this claim. You didn't answer my question--if the Nazis supported Darwinism, why did they ban Darwin's books?

As for Richard Weikart who wrote this article as well as other material on this issue, his books have been widely criticized. University of Chicago historian Robert Richards wrote that "Hitler was not a Darwinian" and called Weikat's book "a desperate tactic to undermine evolution."

Then "read" before attacking Christians just because they know the truth about history and the Bible.

I am a Christian. Noitice the Christian symbol. Or do you consider only those who agree with you to be Christians?
 
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AV1611VET

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Every man save one has sinned. That has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.
Evolutionists don't believe in original sin (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

Therefore evolutionists think they're going to get into Heaven with original sin on their account.

Unless God has some amendment for them in the plan of salvation, well ... they'll be knock, knock, knocking at Heaven's door.
 
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Speedwell

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Perhaps Archivist would be willing to explain it to you.
Why not you? You brought it up. From the odd wording I would suppose it to be different than merely the notion that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Something icky and improbable like the doctrine Total Depravity perhaps.
 
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AV1611VET

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Why not you? You brought it up. From the odd wording I would suppose it to be different than merely the notion that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Something icky and improbable like the doctrine Total Depravity.
QV please:
The sin nature is that part of human beings that impels us to commit sin. The Bible teaches that we have a sin nature. Not only do we commit sin, but it is our nature to do so. This teaching is in contrast to that of many religious movements that deny original sin or total depravity. The sin nature is mentioned in Romans 7:5; 8:3; and 2 Peter 2:18. It is called the "earthly nature" in Colossians 3:5.

SOURCE
 
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Speedwell

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Evolutionists don't believe in original sin (someone correct me if I'm wrong).
Some do, some don't.

Therefore evolutionists think they're going to get into Heaven with original sin on their account.

That doesn't make any sense. If they don't believe in Original Sin, why would they think they could get into heaven still owing for it?
 
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